Militia occupies national park building in Oregon

1
Two men (father and son) were apparently charged under anti-terror laws for burning 140 acres of federal land adjacent to their land, which they leased from the government for cattle grazing. They were sentenced and released from prison, but a judge has ruled that they did not serve enough time under the anti-terrorism law, so they have to be re-sentenced and go back to prison. A group of protesters has seized a building in the Malheur National Wildlife refuge in Oregon in protest. Here is the back story:

Oregon ranchers may return to prison in land fight with the feds
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/01/01/or ... -feds.html
"When and if fascism comes to America... it will be called, of course, ‘Americanism'." - Halford Luccock
"Liberty without socialism is privilege and injustice. Socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality."
— Mikhail Bakunin

Bundy Ranch "Militia" Seize Wildlife Refuge HQ

4
Not these crazies again:

Militia takes over Malheur National Wildlife Refuge headquarters
Update at 9:15 p.m.: Statement from Harney County Sheriff Dave Ward: "After the peaceful rally was completed today, a group of outside militants drove to the Malheur Wildlife Refuge, where they seized and occupied the refuge headquarters. A collective effort from multiple agencies is currently working on a solution. For the time being please stay away from that area. More information will be provided as it becomes available. Please maintain a peaceful and united front and allow us to work through this situation."

The Bundy family of Nevada joined with hard-core militiamen Saturday to take over the headquarters of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, vowing to occupy the remote federal outpost 50 miles southeast of Burns for years.

The occupation came shortly after an estimated 300 marchers — militia and local citizens both — paraded through Burns to protest the prosecution of two Harney County ranchers, Dwight Hammond Jr. and Steven Hammond, who are to report to prison on Monday.
Source:
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-north ... _big-photo

Re: Militia occupies national park building in Oregon

6
GeorgiaRN wrote:I have never been arrested or been to court, but how often does it occur that someone serves a sentence only to have another judge determine it was not long enough? Something seems rather corrupt here.

I wouldn't go so far as to say "corrupt" at this point, but I am eager for further explanation. 4 months for Dad, 1 year for the son....the 1 year sentence seems about right. Insisting on a 4 year sentence seems a bit stiff, but again info is sketchy at this time. It comes down to if their claims of forestry and invasive plant species carries any credibility or they were just being stoopid. Either way, you can't just go around setting forests on fire without permits and authorization.

As far as the Bundy punks occupying the building...I say send in Janet Reno. :shoot:
If liberals interpreted the Second Amendment the way they interpret the rest of the Bill of Rights, there would be law professors arguing that gun ownership is mandatory. - Mickey Kaus, The New Republic

Re: Militia occupies national park building in Oregon

7
MayhemVI wrote:
GeorgiaRN wrote:I have never been arrested or been to court, but how often does it occur that someone serves a sentence only to have another judge determine it was not long enough? Something seems rather corrupt here.

I wouldn't go so far as to say "corrupt" at this point, but I am eager for further explanation. 4 months for Dad, 1 year for the son....the 1 year sentence seems about right. Insisting on a 4 year sentence seems a bit stiff, but again info is sketchy at this time. It comes down to if their claims of forestry and invasive plant species carries any credibility or they were just being stoopid. Either way, you can't just go around setting forests on fire without permits and authorization.

As far as the Bundy punks occupying the building...I say send in Janet Reno. :shoot:
I agree on this one. The DOJ now needs a Janet Reno. The current Federal Government has tucked tail and run too many times from criminal acts through a spectrum events over the last 7 years.
EAT,SLEEP,RANGE,REPEAT

Re: Militia occupies national park building in Oregon

8
From the RT article:
"Hammond Ranches has about 12,000 acres in the Diamond-Frenchglen area. Their livelihood is running cattle during the winter. Two years ago, the ranch used 26,420 acres of land belonging to the BLM for summer grazing."

These are not apparently poor ranchers on the brink of starvation. I believe Clive Bundy is also a wealthy man.

Apparently the position of these groups is that there should be no restrictions on what is done on federal land, and that these federal lands should be sold off to private owners.

Also from the RT article:
"“We’re going to be freeing these lands up, and getting ranchers back to ranching, getting the loggers back to logging, getting the miners back to mining where they could do it under the protection of the people and not be afraid of this tyranny that’s been set upon them,” Ammon Bundy, who appears to be the leader of the group, said in a Facebook video posted by Sarah Dee Spurlock on Saturday."

Since the feds own most of the land west of the Rockies, there should be plenty of space for a compromise. Better to sell some of it off than to subsidize millionaire ranchers like these:

American billionaires on welfare: The Koch brothers and other ranchers stealing your tax dollars
https://www.salon.com/2015/03/27/americ ... x_dollars/
"When and if fascism comes to America... it will be called, of course, ‘Americanism'." - Halford Luccock
"Liberty without socialism is privilege and injustice. Socialism without liberty is slavery and brutality."
— Mikhail Bakunin

Re: Bundy Ranch "Militia" Seize Wildlife Refuge HQ

9
So the militia types want a national forest turned over to local " ranchers, loggers, and miners"?
Basically they want to steal for themselves something that belongs to the people of the United States- the forest is part of the commons, preserved and maintained for the people through their tax money.
Can you imagine how much these ranchers would bitch and moan if the Feds cut their subsidies?
"... the rich rob the poor under the cover of law. We plunder the rich under the cover of our own courage." - Captain " Black Sam" Bellamy ( executed for piracy, 1717).

Re: Militia occupies national park building in Oregon

10
GeorgiaRN wrote:I have never been arrested or been to court, but how often does it occur that someone serves a sentence only to have another judge determine it was not long enough? Something seems rather corrupt here.
I agree that their reckless disregard by setting the fires needed to be punished. But yeah, either there is more to the story behind the judge's decision or that judge is guilty of double jeopardy.
BTW, moderators, we need a thread merge.
"... the rich rob the poor under the cover of law. We plunder the rich under the cover of our own courage." - Captain " Black Sam" Bellamy ( executed for piracy, 1717).

Re: Militia occupies national park building in Oregon

14
KnightsFan wrote:Twice now these group have organized to interfere with lawful authorities carrying out their duties. They have used armed force against the federal government.

I think it's time the feds should stop playing around and go after these treasonous/rebellious fools with everything they have.

This will not end well.
I do not have faith in their trigger finger control. My gut says someone shoots, someone shoots back, APCs get called in.

Re: Militia occupies national park building in Oregon

15
Danuis wrote:
KnightsFan wrote:Twice now these group have organized to interfere with lawful authorities carrying out their duties. They have used armed force against the federal government.

I think it's time the feds should stop playing around and go after these treasonous/rebellious fools with everything they have.

This will not end well.
I do not have faith in their trigger finger control. My gut says someone shoots, someone shoots back, APCs get called in.
Intro please. Refer to new member intro section.
Image
Image

"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Bundy Ranch "Militia" Seize Wildlife Refuge HQ

17
comedian wrote:So the militia types want a national forest turned over to local " ranchers, loggers, and miners"?
Basically they want to steal for themselves something that belongs to the people of the United States- the forest is part of the commons, preserved and maintained for the people through their tax money.
Can you imagine how much these ranchers would bitch and moan if the Feds cut their subsidies?
These might-makes-right types are White Christian Terrorists:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027493276

...but the media will not call them that. Yes: they want to take public wealth into their own pockets. Republicans and Libertarians.

They're on Indian land.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Burns ... 4a4d?hl=en

This complicates matters. My recommendation as to strategy: with the Tribe's permission, put a ring of National Guard around the little building and let them wait. It's nine degrees. Let no supplies in. No shots fired.

These people frost my patootie.

One last thing: anyone watch that Daesh-style "goodbye" video made by that one dude?

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: Bundy Ranch "Militia" Seize Wildlife Refuge HQ

18
CDFingers wrote:My recommendation as to strategy: with the Tribe's permission, put a ring of National Guard around the little building and let them wait. It's nine degrees. Let no supplies in. No shots fired.
Agreed. They want martyrdom and are whoring for attention. Give the siege as little media attention as possible and make it boring to the press. Same goes for any other group trying this with similar motives.

They can only have toted so much freeze dried food in with them. When they get low on supplies, get upwind and send the aroma of frying bacon and/or grilling steaks their way. I'd also be interested in where the building's water supply comes from.

As for the "Blast the Bastards Out" advocates, would you be in favor of a similar solution if these guys were something other than white Right-wingers?
"There never was a union of church and state which did not bring serious evils to religion."
The Right Reverend John England, first Roman Catholic Bishop of Charleston SC, 1825.

Re: Bundy Ranch "Militia" Seize Wildlife Refuge HQ

20
SwampGrouch wrote:
CDFingers wrote:My recommendation as to strategy: with the Tribe's permission, put a ring of National Guard around the little building and let them wait. It's nine degrees. Let no supplies in. No shots fired.
Agreed. They want martyrdom and are whoring for attention. Give the siege as little media attention as possible and make it boring to the press. Same goes for any other group trying this with similar motives.

They can only have toted so much freeze dried food in with them. When they get low on supplies, get upwind and send the aroma of frying bacon and/or grilling steaks their way. I'd also be interested in where the building's water supply comes from.

As for the "Blast the Bastards Out" advocates, would you be in favor of a similar solution if these guys were something other than white Right-wingers?
I agree with you shut off water and power, let nothing in or out. Block all communication from within the build except to the federal command center. Then just let them sit. Only use violence if they shoot first.

Also the Feds could setup loud speakers playing "It's a small world" or the Barney dinosaur theme over and over, but making sure the federal people are rotated out of hearing range frequently.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: Bundy Ranch "Militia" Seize Wildlife Refuge HQ

22
SwampGrouch wrote:
CDFingers wrote:My recommendation as to strategy: with the Tribe's permission, put a ring of National Guard around the little building and let them wait. It's nine degrees. Let no supplies in. No shots fired.
Agreed. They want martyrdom and are whoring for attention. Give the siege as little media attention as possible and make it boring to the press. Same goes for any other group trying this with similar motives.

They can only have toted so much freeze dried food in with them. When they get low on supplies, get upwind and send the aroma of frying bacon and/or grilling steaks their way. I'd also be interested in where the building's water supply comes from.

As for the "Blast the Bastards Out" advocates, would you be in favor of a similar solution if these guys were something other than white Right-wingers?
This is my thought also and that last part bears repeating.
Meh.

Image

Re: Militia occupies national park building in Oregon

23
Arson is a very serious felony. It has the ability to get out of control and fireman do die in fires et by arsonists. So, I have zero sympathy for bozos who set fire to anything, whether it is public land or structures.

As for these guys, they do not even know what they want other than to graze their animals on public land for free. So, I strongly agree with the posts that advocate staring them out - no electricity, no water, no nothing. Maybe after a few days or weeks, they will figure out what they want or if failing that, give up. If not, we have more time than they do. If they do fire at law enforcement personnel, then all bets are off. But it would be a shame to damage the public building. Gotta wonder if they have gas masks? If not, CS is very effective.

Re: Militia occupies national park building in Oregon

24
From another gun forum:
In my former life as a research scientist, I did work in the area. Many of the ranchers and growers in the area have worked closely with Oregon State University researchers to develop sustainable methods for growing crops and running cattle on the land. The ranchers have seen an improvement in the rangeland. Over a century of overgrazing had left it full of weedy plants that provide very poor forage for cattle. Better management has brought back the more nutritious grasses and this also benefits the deer and antelope herds.

The majority of the people living in the Burns area are the ones calling the Bundy's and their group the terrorists. They have told them repeatedly they were not welcomed and to get lost. This was not their issue.

Much of the community is not happy with what the Hammond's did. They set a fire that got out of control and could have easily burned out their neighbors. The fire was set on their land but it crossed over to the federal land because they lost control of it. It was put out before it spread past the Federal land and burned any other private land.

Fire is used to manage the rangeland, but the controlled burns are set in early spring when conditions are such that they will not get out of control and there is a fire crew on hand to douse it if it starts to get out of control. They did not have any of that. The community wanted to lynch them. They just want to serve their time, pay their debt.

The other issue, the wildlife refuge is a big tourist draw. Burns is in the middle of nowhere. The Malheur National Wildlife Refuge is a big tourist draw. The streams feeding the basin have the Redband trout. It is also a stopover on the Pacific flyway for waterfowl. So people use it for hunting, camping, fishing, and hiking. It is an oasis in the desert.

Then north of Burns is the Malheur National forest that also provides opportunities for outdoor activities. The refuge and National forest bring in tourist dollars to Burns. The people of Burns do not want to be in the national news over outside militia groups coming in and interfering with an issue that they are changing the narrative to fit their agenda when the issue is not government overreach. It is two people set fire to their land and the fire got out of hand and spread to Federal land. If the fire had not been quickly put out, it could have burned out others and burned out the rangeland that many in the area depend on for their livelihood.

So, the Bundy group are terrorizing the people living in the area. They are pulling a stunt that is messing with their livelihood at a time when people are starting to make vacation plans. Bundy is in the news saying he will stay there for years so that will shut down a huge money maker indefinitely.

I would not be surprised if the Oregon LE just seals off the area and does not allow anyone to enter or leave. BTW, the other militia groups are disavowing what Bundy's group is doing, so it is looking like the are acting more like terrorists.
The issue is the original judge who sentenced them openly stated he would not sentence them to the mandatory minimum because he did not think it was fair. The mandatory minimum set by Congress in 1996 is 5 years. The judge gave the older Hammond 3 months and the younger one 1 year. The prosecution appealed the sentence. By the time the appeals process worked its way through to the 9th Circuit Court, the Hammonds had served the time they were originally sentenced to. They knew they might have to go back and serve more time if they lost the appeals before the 9th. They bet on the role of the dice and lost.

Here is an article that explains the situation: http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-no..._ranchers.html

The Hammonds started fires 3 different times. The first time, they were told they were not allowed to do that without first getting a permit. There was no penalty.

They set another fire 2 years later, in September, at the height of fire season, that jumped their land and burned 139 acres of public land.

Then he again set another fire a few years later that burned 1 acre of public land. This one I would have a hard time to convict on. Several fires were started by lighting, and they started a back fire to save their winter feed. It worked. Without more information, I do not know if the back fire created more damage or helped in the effort to put out the fire.

It appears that it was not until after the 3rd fire that the decision was made to prosecute.

Personally, I hope the FBI and other Federal agencies have learned from the other disasters. They do not need to go in with guns blazing. Just seal off the area and negotiate.

In a previous post, someone said that the closest FBI office is in Portland. Actually, I believe it is in Boise. My step-father lives in Boise. When I was a researcher at Oregon State, I would drive through Burns when I went to visit him. I preferred driving that route than I-84. In the winter, it was much safer, I-84 in the Columbia River Gorge gets so slick with ice that at times the only vehicles allowed are 4WD with chains on all 4 wheels. The roads through central OR are all 2 lane but never get extremely hazardous.

I also like visiting the Wildlife refuge or the John Day fossil beds.

If I could find a decent job I would live in this area.
Seems to me the problem is that on the eve of President Obama's announcement on restricting gun rights this really plays into the hands of more restrictions and makes us all look like right wing insurrectionists.

Re: Militia occupies national park building in Oregon

25
bigstones wrote:From another gun forum:

So, the Bundy group are terrorizing the people living in the area.
White, Christian terrorists? Nah. We won't see that. They're "patriots."

Me? I don't think they're helping things at all. Starve 'em out and jail 'em. As terrorists.

eta: You've got to know what the other side is up to. Here's from The Conservative Treehouse:

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/201 ... rsecution/

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Amazon [Bot], Bing [Bot], Semrush [Bot] and 3 guests