Re: Clinton's FU to the Bernie supporters

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This election is a prime example of what lesser evil voting returns. You get ignored, taken for granted, spat on, told to be an adult and suck it up. Lesser evil voting is disempowering at every level.

What real adults understand is that rewarding bad behavior doesn't eliminate that bad behavior, it reinforces it. The liberals remaining in the DNC will never be taken seriously until they start acting like adults and withhold their votes from an arrogant petulant establishment which thinks it can trample them at every opportunity and still have their support simply by throwing a tantrum and saying "Trump". And as long as the LE voting continues, they'll be right.

Victory doesn't require winning. If the Greens came out of this election cycle with just 10% of the vote, smart politicians would be looking at those numbers and seeing opportunity -- most elections are won by the single digits and a 10% chunk of liberals who care to vote would get attention, and maybe even make progress on issues. In contrast, lesser evil voting consigns you to irrelevancy.

Re: Clinton's FU to the Bernie supporters

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awshoot wrote:This election is a prime example of what lesser evil voting returns. You get ignored, taken for granted, spat on, told to be an adult and suck it up. Lesser evil voting is disempowering at every level.

What real adults understand is that rewarding bad behavior doesn't eliminate that bad behavior, it reinforces it. The liberals remaining in the DNC will never be taken seriously until they start acting like adults and withhold their votes from an arrogant petulant establishment which thinks it can trample them at every opportunity and still have their support simply by throwing a tantrum and saying "Trump". And as long as the LE voting continues, they'll be right.

Victory doesn't require winning. If the Greens came out of this election cycle with just 10% of the vote, smart politicians would be looking at those numbers and seeing opportunity -- most elections are won by the single digits and a 10% chunk of liberals who care to vote would get attention, and maybe even make progress on issues. In contrast, lesser evil voting consigns you to irrelevancy.
While I agree with you whole heartedly, we're talking about a "Donald Trump" presidency possibly in our near future. One who has already sent us back years into the bigotry we've come so far to conquer and he's not even President yet. Terrorists and Republicans are loving this shit.
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Keep Bow Tight ~Sitting Bull
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/90682-i ... ooks-ahead

Re: Clinton's FU to the Bernie supporters

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sikacz wrote:
Sonofagun wrote:Bernie supporters who are stuck on it and won't vote now are unrealistic and add danger to the big picture. I would love to have a contender who reflects all my values but I'm not that selfish and naive. I'm selfish on the highway, but I could care less about my gun rights, school expense and socialist values compared to how much I care about Chump and friends turning my neighborhood even more hateful than the fuckers are and the re-rise of the KKK. Oh and guess what else, the militarization of our serving and protecting police. Shit the KKK will start wearing badges and the cops will start putting on pointy hats. So many of them already do.
How is any of this fixed or prevented by voting for Clinton. It's not. Selfish and naive by voting for the candidate that best reflects my views! Give me a break. If more people chose to vote for a candidate they believed in we wouldn't have this monopolistic single party of the elite mess masquerading as a two party democracy. I won't be supporting Clinton no matter what. The president is one job and position. It's not a dictator or king. Whoever is elected still has to function within the constitutional system we have. I'll not be voting for anyone based on fear. I'll be using my vote to support what I believe in.

(Mods should move this thread to the election section.)
So tell me again what's so bad about Hillary Clinton and Tim Kain? Are they as bad as Obama? You know cause Obama is soooo bad. Did you vote for Obama and Biden or the Libertarian then? Just curious...

And where was Bernie Sanders then and any time before?
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Keep Bow Tight ~Sitting Bull
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/90682-i ... ooks-ahead

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I don't play the bad or lessor of two evils game. I know what I want and Clinton does not come even close to giving me what I want. There is no bad or evil. If your comfortable with Clinton and see her as representing your views vote for her. I'm probably left of Sanders. She has nothing to offer me.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Clinton's FU to the Bernie supporters

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Ok I look at it this way. With Hillary you know what your getting. Yes shes bought and paid for (they all are). And yes my union has given her big bucks over the years. But Wall st. Knows shes not gonna do something or more importantly say something stupid. Trump dear whatever you believe in. Can you just imagine the stock and commodity markets fluctations if he says something off? With Hillary you get Obama term 3 with a different face. Obama didnt do too bad. Economys good. Interest rates low. You can afford to put gas in your car. Shouldnt change much with Hillary.
Hey, careful, man, there's a beverage here! The Dude.
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Re: Clinton's FU to the Bernie supporters

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sikacz wrote:I don't play the bad or lessor of two evils game. I know what I want and Clinton does not come even close to giving me what I want. There is no bad or evil. If your comfortable with Clinton and see her as representing your views vote for her. I'm probably left of Sanders. She has nothing to offer me.
Yes this will be the first time I vote out of fear. I don't want to have to exercise my stand my ground rights. I'm from NY and where I live it's Obvious.
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Keep Bow Tight ~Sitting Bull
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Re: Clinton's FU to the Bernie supporters

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We are where we are now (screwed by both the Democrats and Republicans) because we vote the lesser of two evils and then are shocked and dismayed when we get evil. We voted for it, right?

I'm done patronizing the present Government and 2 party system. I'll vote third party and call me stupid if you will but I'm *not* afraid of Trump. And I won't vote for Hillary to keep him from running the show. Tired of doing as we have always done and getting what we have always gotten. It's third party or bust for me and likely millions of voters.

Dark times are ahead. Buckle up.

VooDoo
Tyrants disarm the people they intend to oppress.

I am sworn to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Re: Clinton's FU to the Bernie supporters

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VodoundaVinci wrote:We are where we are now (screwed by both the Democrats and Republicans) because we vote the lesser of two evils and then are shocked and dismayed when we get evil. We voted for it, right?

I'm done patronizing the present Government and 2 party system. I'll vote third party and call me stupid if you will but I'm *not* afraid of Trump. And I won't vote for Hillary to keep him from running the show. Tired of doing as we have always done and getting what we have always gotten. It's third party or bust for me and likely millions of voters.

Dark times are ahead. Buckle up.

VooDoo
Are dark times ahead when we voted for Obama? A continuation of better times after Obama took the White House is Okay with me. He bailed out the banks which I did not agree with. But we could have reaped Romney and Ryan. Dark times are ahead in the mind of the pessimist.
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Keep Bow Tight ~Sitting Bull
http://www.goodreads.com/quotes/90682-i ... ooks-ahead

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Sonofagun wrote:Are dark times ahead when we voted for Obama? A continuation of better times after Obama took the White House is Okay with me. He bailed out the banks which I did not agree with. But we could have reaped Romney and Ryan. Dark times are ahead in the mind of the pessimist.
Yes. Dark time are ahead if we continue down the Obama path.

For example, GWB gave us due process free detention. Obama expanded that to due process free execution. GWB gave us Iraq (with HRC's help). Obama kept us in Iraq till the Iraqis refused to extend the Status of Forces Agreement (which prevented US troops from facing criminal charges in Iraq for crimes committed in Iraq), pulled out as a result, and pretended he was always a peace candidate. Then there is Afghanistan, Libya, and Syria.

The S&L crisis was 1/40th the size of the recent meltdown and in the S&L crisis, 1000 banksters ended up with a Federal crime on their records. Obama never even investigated.

Torture, the only person to go jail over GWB's torture policies, was the whistleblower Kiriakou.

Ignoring the War Powers Act to wage war in Libya means that the great liberal achievement to come out of the Vietnam war -- one that required a Congressional stamp of approval at least -- is moot. Next time we have a Cheney type who wants to make any war any where -- send you're thank you to Obama.

Espionage Act: close to 4x as many prosecutions under Obama as all other presidents combined.

Obama's administration lobbied against an international ban on cluster munitions.

Sold out to Insurance/pharma while he was still touting a public option, gives us Nixon's healthcare plan with the liberal parts stripped out, and calls it progressive.

Seriously -- Obama is a horrid president from a liberal perspective. Obama is proof positive that it is the job of Republicans to propose right wing crap, and the job of Democrats to make that the new normal, and then rely on on LE voting to cement that new normal into place so the process can repeat again.

Sorry for the screed, but liberals who honor Obama are either deluded, or fake liberals.

grrr.

Re: Clinton's FU to the Bernie supporters

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I guess it depends on where you live if you think Obama was "all that" and if you'd like to see 8 more years of that. The America, where I live, is devastated. The middle class has slid into poverty and any job that is better than not working pays not enough to buy the health insurance that is now law. Or you get fined.

I was a Republican and voted for Hope and Change. And have watched my neighborhood and my middle class friends lose more and more every year. Obama is a failure but his Bosses, the Oligarchy, is fat, sassy, and .1% of them have more than 90 million of my neighbors that rise every morning at 5 am and work till they are raw for dog shit and cardboard.

And you want 8 more years of that? You vote for it....I'll take my chances with what comes and vote *anYtHiNg!* but for one of the two standing parties. Depends on where you live. We are suffering here. Mightily.

VooDoo
Tyrants disarm the people they intend to oppress.

I am sworn to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Re: Clinton's FU to the Bernie supporters

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Hillary Clinton, despite her numerous shortcomings, offers us one invaluable thing: Time.

As I watched Trump's convention, I heard the distant sound of jackboots. Through the static of time, I heard old, hate-filled speeches and insane pronouncements. I heard doors being splintered. I heard muffled screams. I heard the whispered warnings of history.

Those of us who supported Sanders, who stood beside him or to his left, cannot spit in the wind and expect to remain dry.

We need time.

A Trump victory would steal all that we've gained and remove all that we aim for now.
When you side with a man, you stay with him -- Pike Bishop
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Re: Clinton's FU to the Bernie supporters

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VodoundaVinci wrote:I guess it depends on where you live if you think Obama was "all that" and if you'd like to see 8 more years of that. The America, where I live, is devastated. The middle class has slid into poverty and any job that is better than not working pays not enough to buy the health insurance that is now law. Or you get fined.

I was a Republican and voted for Hope and Change. And have watched my neighborhood and my middle class friends lose more and more every year. Obama is a failure but his Bosses, the Oligarchy, is fat, sassy, and .1% of them have more than 90 million of my neighbors that rise every morning at 5 am and work till they are raw for dog shit and cardboard.

And you want 8 more years of that? You vote for it....I'll take my chances with what comes and vote *anYtHiNg!* but for one of the two standing parties. Depends on where you live. We are suffering here. Mightily.

VooDoo
I think Bush may have had some impact on what you describe. He had 8 years to fuck things up. It will take decades for anything positive to come thereafter. Trump took weeks to conquer what took years to accomplish. Makes bush look like an amateur.
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Keep Bow Tight ~Sitting Bull
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Re: Clinton's FU to the Bernie supporters

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kilgoretrout wrote:
Paco wrote: A Trump victory would steal all that we've gained and remove all that we aim for now.
Time is overrated when progress is non-existent.
HRC supports the use of secret lists to deny Americans civil liberties. This means we've already lost.

On the one hand we have Trump. A man using fear and hate to inspire his party's bas. He talks about a getting rid of The Other, because obviously it's their fault life sucks. He talks about taking America back to a fictional past where we didn't worry about anything else. He has no actual policy plans or proposals it's all vague goals that can be quickly changed based on the wind.

On the other hand we have Hillary. A woman who has spent a lifetime working in politics being bought and sold by lobbyists. She has no independence. She is owned by the ologarchs. She is rallying her base by telling them "Look that guy's way worse." Again it's all based on hate and fear. The Other in her case is blue collar fly-over land types. Her base sees them all as being the same. Violent degenerates judt waiting to lynch the gay couple down the street. Her proposals would entirely benefit the top level of our society and continue to create inequality. Inequality that exacerbates every other social ill we face. She proposes a law to strip potential persons of interest of their civil rights.

Really I see no good option. And neither buys us time. They're just different paths to the same end; Authoritarianism.
"No one can build his security upon the nobleness of another person."
-Willa Cather

Re: Clinton's FU to the Bernie supporters

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KnightsFan wrote: Really I see no good option. And neither buys us time. They're just different paths to the same end; Authoritarianism.
Exactly. I have no doubt that the Bush years precipitated the American Demise I am living in. I also have no doubt that Bill Clinton helped, as did the Big Daddy Bush and Reagan before him. Most of/all of my voting Life I have watched America manipulated and destroyed by the .1% at the tippy, tippy top. Now they wanna close the circle and control everything...that's Democrats and Republicans. Thomas Jefferson predicted our present dilemma and the cycle and whether we elect Hillary or Trump matters Jack Shit.

We're gonna get served, America. Where it starts is a matter of rhetoric and circumstances but, Trump or Clinton, there are darker times ahead.

VooDoo
Tyrants disarm the people they intend to oppress.

I am sworn to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Re: Clinton's FU to the Bernie supporters

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Neo liberalism, represented by HilKaine, should be defeated, but not at the expense of electing a fascist. I started another thread about what the actual "Prize" is with our elections in America.

We know things change fairly slowly in America, and this is by design: the Founders did not want to make it easy to make sweeping changes. The system is designed to allow a lot of grass roots to pile up behind the dam, and the dam won't give way until there's sufficient mass to drop the dam. "Mass" is voters. Voters have to pile up behind the Progressive Agenda for it to come to fruition. Until then we're forced to face the false dilemma: either elect a neo liberal or elect a fascist.

It's a hell of a choice. Do we, on the one hand, continue to support our jobs migrating to low-labor-cost countries in exchange for cheaper goods that we're forced to buy due to low incomes, in exchange for continuing to allow Big Banks to create money out of thin air (which the Trumpsters also love), or do we on the other hand, support the type of Trump protectionism and aggression that will most certainly lead to war--which is great for certain business, the type of old school business that includes extraction of coal and oil, manufacture and sale of advanced weapons for sale to the "Let's you and him fight" scam?

Tough choice unless you take the long view. We see some Ideas of Berne making their way into the platform. Eyes on the prize thread:

http://www.theliberalgunclub.com/phpBB3 ... 58&t=37719

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: Clinton's FU to the Bernie supporters

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lurker wrote:
KnightsFan wrote: Really I see no good option. And neither buys us time. They're just different paths to the same end; Authoritarianism.
if we're all goin to hell, trump is the express. i'd rather take the scenic route.
Trump's express has to get through plenty of switches with guys who aren't quite sure they want to let it through. Clinton's route might take longer, but she owns all the switches and is going to charge us for each and every one.
"No one can build his security upon the nobleness of another person."
-Willa Cather

Re: Clinton's FU to the Bernie supporters

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awshoot wrote:This election is a prime example of what lesser evil voting returns. You get ignored, taken for granted, spat on, told to be an adult and suck it up. Lesser evil voting is disempowering at every level.

What real adults understand is that rewarding bad behavior doesn't eliminate that bad behavior, it reinforces it. The liberals remaining in the DNC will never be taken seriously until they start acting like adults and withhold their votes from an arrogant petulant establishment which thinks it can trample them at every opportunity and still have their support simply by throwing a tantrum and saying "Trump". And as long as the LE voting continues, they'll be right.
Agreed.

Although, I don't know how much weight the "but Trump!" threat really carries.

Nicholas Kristof had an editorial in yesterday's paper where, instead of whining at us again about how much he hates Trump, he parroted some quotes of other influential conservatives who also hate Trump. For me, it had the opposite of its intended effect. Anybody that Mittens O'Romneycare, Lyin' Ryan, Meg Witless, Bailout Hank Paulson, Tom Ridge (who did untold damage to Pennsylvania by handing sports teams $300M and raising lawmaker pensions 50% before running off to create his goofy alert chart and peddle duct tape) and the rest of these clowns are upset over can't be all bad. He wasn't quoted but let's add crybaby crapitalist apologist Jonah "it's communism when I don't get my way" Goldberg too.

You know what Trump's real crime is? He isn't pushing their usual "coddle the rich and fuck everybody else because God's work" narrative.

Listen to his speeches. He hits all of the right notes to trigger the left on keeping Mexicans and Muslims out. The left is WRONG here, not considering drug running or terrorism in its knee-jerk one-worldism, but that's beside the point. If all it took to appease evil racist Republicans was to shit on minorities, they'd be hoisting him up on their shoulders singing songs of glorious victory right now.

He's on the record as for a higher minimum wage, for ending these rotten one-sided trade deals that fuck working Americans coming and going, for ending the H1-B visa abuse, for keeping Social Security in place so we can retire someday, against the stupid unending wars that drive up the debt and create enemies everywhere, etc. THAT is what's unforgivable in their eyes. Because if working people have even an ounce of economic stability, they won't bend over for the banks and their minions that would suck the life from this country, toss away its withered husk, and move on to the next host.

While I have considered that Trump or the Republicans are pretending, I don't think the Republican party in its entirety has a sufficient number of brain cells to coordinate such a plan, nor do I trust gun-grabbing Hillary "the TPP is the gold standard" Clinton to ever do anything to help working Americans.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something sometime in your life. - Winston Churchill

Re: Clinton's FU to the Bernie supporters

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kilgoretrout wrote:
Paco wrote: A Trump victory would steal all that we've gained and remove all that we aim for now.
Time is overrated when progress is non-existent.
That's certainly true, but I perceive the Sanders campaign, the emergence of Black Lives Matter, and numerous other related developments as important indications of growing resistance. That's progress.

I've been around a long time, so I've learned to take a long view.
When you side with a man, you stay with him -- Pike Bishop
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Re: Clinton's FU to the Bernie supporters

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CDFingers wrote:the Founders did not want to make it easy to make sweeping changes. The system is designed to allow a lot of grass roots to pile up behind the dam, and the dam won't give way until there's sufficient mass to drop the dam.
Which is why it took so long for the founders to stop lawfully owning my great grandparents and deny them the precious constitutional rights they are so well known for championing.
Magnited we stand.

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Re: Clinton's FU to the Bernie supporters

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kilgoretrout wrote:
CDFingers wrote:the Founders did not want to make it easy to make sweeping changes. The system is designed to allow a lot of grass roots to pile up behind the dam, and the dam won't give way until there's sufficient mass to drop the dam.
Which is why it took so long for the founders to stop lawfully owning my great grandparents and deny them the precious constitutional rights they are so well known for championing.
Which is the direct contribution to today and the fact that prisons are filled the way they are. Slave owners should have been responsible for the welfare of freed slaves rather than setting them off to fend without a fucking trace of an asset. And because of the way it went down we have what we have today, an argument that is totally bonafide to the elite.
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