Im no sarin gas chemist, but i read as i slept in a holiday

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http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-2 ... ck/8474428

The french base their findings on the findings from a 2013 gas attack in Syria.


"Key points:

French report says 2017 samples match those from 2013 sarin gas attack in Syria Intelligence suggests only the Syrian air force could have launched the Attack Russia has denounced the report and its conclusions"

And a lot of speculation



Problem is, Scientific America lays out back in 2013 that it identification process was started to late, and probably not accurate.





https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... ons-syria/


And an interesting sidebar..

Syria and Israel are among the only countries not to have signed or ratified the 1972 Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention (Syria signed but never ratified and Israel never signed), which required signatories to stop bioweapons work and destroy existing stockpiles. Did this play a role in the attack?



Im Not supporting syria. Id like like some facts. Not.. Because we think so ..

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I must proof read more

Re: Im no sarin gas chemist, but i read as i slept in a holi

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dandad wrote: Id like like some facts. Not.. Because we think so ..
Sadly, facts are the one thing we don't have. Nothing solid anyway.

There are things that don't quite add up... The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons flatly refuses to send anyone to inspect the location of the attack or the airfield where the gas was allegedly stored, instead relying on samples provided from the area (under control by the terrorists), not necessarily the most reliable source.

Said samples could only confirm the gas, nothing else relevant like, you know, how the gas was deployed. The UN investigation of the 2013 chemical attack considered the rebels to be the most likely culprit... so if the 2017 gas matches the 2013 gas, it would very strongly point to the rebels.

Meanwhile Turkish whistleblowers, notably MP Eren Erdem (who previously exposed corruption of the Turkish President's family which had him branded an "American puppet"), have claimed there is solid evidence that the ingredients for Sarin gas was smuggled into Turkey and sent to Syrian terrorists.

There are other fishy things, like the timing and motive. Shortly after the Trump administration claims it doesn't need to intervene in Syria, Assad then decides to use a chemical weapon and risk US involvement - all while Assad is winning the war? It's like a football player is running with the ball, gets to within 15 yards of the end zone, then randomly decides to turn around and throw the ball midfield to a team-mate surrounded by the other team. Why risk an almost guaranteed interception when victory is so close? It doesn't make any sense. It's also inconsistent. The government has never been proven to target civilians or use chemical weapons, but the terrorists have.

I personally am extremely skeptical that this attack was committed by the Syrian government. But again, that's based on very little, cursory, extremely incomplete and tenuous details. We simply don't know enough to make any reasoned guesses. It's like trying to figure out what a 1000 piece puzzle depicts when we only have a couple dozen pieces.


However, when it comes to France... please read and consider this truth-out article on declassified Hillary Clinton emails about Libya. Note that French President Sarkozy's actual motivations to get involved in Libya include 1. Oil and gold, 2. increase french influence, 3. increase his popularity in the polls, 4. reassert french military power (George Carlin's prick waving hypothesis at work). Also note that our reasons for getting involved (humanitarian concerns, claims of "rape policy", etc.) were all made up by Clinton's people.

The entire war in Libya was a ruse to get gold, oil, and influence. The war was unnecessary and completely devastated the people there, the consequences of this greed is monstrous on an unfathomable scale. Libya remains a failed state and today black people are being sold as slaves for just $200 each. Clinton knew at the time we were supplying Al Qaeda, that there was ethnic cleansing going on, and worse, and she didn't care - neither did the french or UK people involved. There were videos being shared during the Bush years about Neocons having a plan to take down 7 secular middle eastern governments in 5 years. The time table was extended a bit, but it seems plausible that the plan still remains the same.

I have very little faith in governments that want to further destabilize the region for political gain.


This is already long, but one last thing... Isn't it strange that one of the awful things Trump has done is getting almost no mainstream media attention? He's resuming the sale of weapons to Saudi Arabia to use in their blasting of Yemen. Not only are the Saudis targeting civilians, but they are apparently using white phosphorous that we gave them! White phosphorous is one of the most horrifying chemical weapons around, it slowly burns through you to the bone. This is only going to further radicalize people against the US, perpetuating even more terrorism - because evidently we don't have enough of that already.

Strange the double standards being applied... it's almost like there are much deeper, more political motivations for choosing what wars we rattle our sabers about. Food for thought.


Tl;dr -

1. We know nothing Jon Snow, but I'm skeptical Assad was involved in the attack.
2. The French are assholes, nothing new there, but they like middle eastern wars to get oil and assert the size of their pricks. I'm not keen to trust them.
3. Trump gives weapons to the Saudis who are probably using white phosphorous on civilian populations and nobody bats an eye, Syria maybe-possibly uses sarin gas and everyone loses their minds. Probably more to these stories.
"These are hard times, NOT end times!"
- Jon Stewart, Rally to Restore Sanity

Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes.

Re: Im no sarin gas chemist, but i read as i slept in a holi

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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes ... libya/amp/

Here is a good article on the French and Libya. Older but relevant.

I like your post. I learned a lot ..

Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk
This is just my opinion, yours may vary and is no less valid.
- Me -

"I will never claim to be an expert, and it has been my experience that self proclaimed experts are usually self proclaimed."
-Me-

I must proof read more

Re: Im no sarin gas chemist, but i read as i slept in a holi

4
Well.. if it was the rebels gassing themselves for some strategic purpose... they sure do gas themselves frequently https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/ ... s-Activity

Given the confirmed history of Syria using chemical weapons on civilians I can't find any reason to give them the benefit of the doubt this time.

Sarin is a non persistent war gas that disperses quickly , any hydroxyl compound (OH) quickly breaks the complex chemical bonds and inerts the gas and makes it hard to detect and allows quick follow attack by friendly troops to seize and occupy the objective with little CW risk to the attackers. Water, H2O or H(OH), even the moisture in the air breaks the chemical bonds and inert's the gas.. The typical presentation of Sarin casualties is dead bodies lacking wounds .. because any explosive Bursting charge in the bomb or shell will destroy some of the Sarin.. so they make the charges as small as possible. Typical first sign of attack is artillery shells landing but not exploding or having very small explosions.

One significant tell tale is that there would have been found at the attack site or in the immediate area, would be the handling suits and masks and detectors that you need to keep from killing yourself.. especially if you are using old stockpiles of the weapons that rebels might have found in old bunkers .. For it to be the rebels there would have had to be a very long chain of a very high risk operation to move the shells or bombs from where they were found to where they were used, with a very high risk, higher even still if being done by untrained personnel without proper safety gear. just as an example.. if you are using an aircraft to deliver Sarin Bombs the Russian aircraft/ pilot have to use a second nonstandard oxygen mask, because the standard mask doesn't protect.

Just saying given Syria's history, given some rather obvious telltales that were not found , given that there was aircraft reported dropping bombs in the immediate are and there are no blast or shrapnel casualties .... Guys.. everything points to Syria

Re: Im no sarin gas chemist, but i read as i slept in a holi

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sikacz wrote:Problem with Syria is there's more than two sides. I share Mikesters skepticism from a simple historical perspective and lack of evidence. There is a who done it and why that won't be solved without an investigation on site and at the possible place of origin.
Well I don't know what you want as evidence.. Sarin breaks down .. you don't seem to think that the presentation of the casualties, lack of necessary and typical support equipment, or the track record of Syria is evidence, the historical record of Syria using chemical weapons, doesn't seem to be the historical perspective you are looking for, so yeah I can see where you think it is a mystery.

Exactly what kind of evidence and historical perspective ( every on the ground investigation done by the UN so far has implicated the Assad government) do you want or do you think there might be? Did you look at the link I provided of the many chemical attacks and UN investigations and actions?

If you do not think the UN investigations are credible, who would you accept as credible investigators?

Re: Im no sarin gas chemist, but i read as i slept in a holi

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Sarge wrote:
sikacz wrote:Problem with Syria is there's more than two sides. I share Mikesters skepticism from a simple historical perspective and lack of evidence. There is a who done it and why that won't be solved without an investigation on site and at the possible place of origin.
Well I don't know what you want as evidence.. Sarin breaks down .. you don't seem to think that the presentation of the casualties, lack of necessary and typical support equipment, or the track record of Syria is evidence, the historical record of Syria using chemical weapons, doesn't seem to be the historical perspective you are looking for, so yeah I can see where you think it is a mystery.

Exactly what kind of evidence and historical perspective ( every on the ground investigation done by the UN so far has implicated the Assad government) do you want or do you think there might be? Did you look at the link I provided of the many chemical attacks and UN investigations and actions?

If you do not think the UN investigations are credible, who would you accept as credible investigators?
Why don't you read some of my posts from the past on this and similar topics. Coincidence is not evidence. Biased parties are not reliable witnesses.
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Re: Im no sarin gas chemist, but i read as i slept in a holi

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Mikester wrote:
dandad wrote: Id like like some facts. Not.. Because we think so ..
Sadly, facts are the one thing we don't have. Nothing solid anyway.

There are things that don't quite add up... The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons flatly refuses to send anyone to inspect the location of the attack or the airfield where the gas was allegedly stored, instead relying on samples provided from the area (under control by the terrorists), not necessarily the most reliable source.
Based on the article, what the OPCW is refusing is the Russian plan to conduct inspections. Since Russia's a likely accomplice if the Syrian AF conducted the sarin attack, it makes sense to keep the investigation independent of meddling from any of the many sides. Sarin breaks down fairly quickly - there's no point in going to the site weeks later, especially since the OPCW already has chemical analysis from the victims collected in near real time.
Mikester wrote:Said samples could only confirm the gas, nothing else relevant like, you know, how the gas was deployed.
Yup.
Mikester wrote:The UN investigation of the 2013 chemical attack considered the rebels to be the most likely culprit... so if the 2017 gas matches the 2013 gas, it would very strongly point to the rebels.
I'd like to see a source for that if you have it handy. The OPCW reports I read shortly after the cruise missile strike showed that multiple entities were using sarin - the rebels in the form of re-purposed smoke and/or CS grenades (like the stuff US police use in protests) and the Syrian military in the form of larger munitions.
Mikester wrote:Meanwhile Turkish whistleblowers, notably MP Eren Erdem (who previously exposed corruption of the Turkish President's family which had him branded an "American puppet"), have claimed there is solid evidence that the ingredients for Sarin gas was smuggled into Turkey and sent to Syrian terrorists.
That could very well be. If the terrorists or rebels were making sarin, then they'd probably have to either steal materials from the government or walk them across the border. Path of least resistance favors a border crossing. That the rebels have precursors, though, doesn't mean the Government doesn't. Recall that only the chemical weapons Syria declared they had were destroyed - they could have 'missed' some in their inventory, and they likely made more.
Mikester wrote:There are other fishy things, like the timing and motive. Shortly after the Trump administration claims it doesn't need to intervene in Syria, Assad then decides to use a chemical weapon and risk US involvement - all while Assad is winning the war?...The government has never been proven to target civilians or use chemical weapons, but the terrorists have.
The motive is consistent - Assad's still fighting a war for survival of his regime. That's reason enough. Also, there's no indication that he's winning the war.
Assad will reign over a wasteland. To the head of Britain's foreign intelligence service, Alex Younger, "In Aleppo, Russia and the Syrian regime seek to make a desert and call it peace."
http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/12/middleeas ... im-lister/
Additionally, part of Assad's calculus includes their buddy Russia having veto authority on the UNSC, that they apparently are not a signatory to the chemical weapons convention, and that Assad declared his readiness to use his chem/bio weapons against anyone if he was attacked, which he subsequently was and did. Regardless of how we slice it, Syria's a mess.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/wor ... 56425402/1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghouta_chemical_attack
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/06/worl ... syria.html
Mikester wrote:However, when it comes to France... please read and consider this truth-out article on declassified Hillary Clinton emails about Libya. Note that French President Sarkozy's actual motivations to get involved in Libya include 1. Oil and gold, 2. increase french influence, 3. increase his popularity in the polls, 4. reassert french military power (George Carlin's prick waving hypothesis at work). Also note that our reasons for getting involved (humanitarian concerns, claims of "rape policy", etc.) were all made up by Clinton's people.
Thanks for the Libya info. I remembered scanning some of the State email, but didn't see the French connection...as it were.

Re: Im no sarin gas chemist, but i read as i slept in a holi

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Just curious. Was reading this morning that there are markers in sarin gas that can link it to Syria? What? Like name tags on your kids gym clothes or colored indicators like in gun powder? I doubt a country has their name in chemicals, and even if they can determine one or all of the chemicals come from a specific manufacture in a specific country, that does not say who used it. I know for a fact many of the weapons used against our troops in the first gulf war with daddy bush, were US weapons. That doesnt mean the US was shooting at ourselves in Iraq. I also know we gave Saddam his Sarin gas , which he tested on Kurds while we looked the other way. Does that mean the US gassed Kurds?
Circumstantial evidence at best is all they might have, and especially being as there is chatter that its possible Turkey or even Israel dropped the gas. Both have been bombing in Syria, and it would be to both countries advantage to get the US and or Nato to swoop in on Syria for so many reasons.

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This is just my opinion, yours may vary and is no less valid.
- Me -

"I will never claim to be an expert, and it has been my experience that self proclaimed experts are usually self proclaimed."
-Me-

I must proof read more

Re: Im no sarin gas chemist, but i read as i slept in a holi

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Actually, any chemical can be tagged with a unique ratio of exotic elements that will make it (and it's decomposition products) "sign it's name" when run through a mass spec. In the same respect, even untagged chemicals have characteristic ratios of trace contaminants. But I never, ever accept fancy lab data without seeing it. It's trivially easy to fake up ANYTHING these days. Computers are useful like that. Anyway, there are easier and more deadly things than Sarin. Usually, when I see mention of Sarin, Anthrax, or Ricin, I assume it's FUD, because those are the buzzword agents. Kind of like "Pressure Cooker Bomb" and "Fertilizer explosive".

Re: Im no sarin gas chemist, but i read as i slept in a holi

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dandad wrote:Circumstantial evidence at best is all they might have, and especially being as there is chatter that its possible Turkey or even Israel dropped the gas.
There were reports in the other thread that western SIGINT had the flight that flew and dropped the bomb (SY AF); there was a social media clip of the SY AF pilot getting an award for the mission; there's eye witness reports from the site that identified the source of the bomb as a Russian jet, likely one of the SY AF birds; and finally, there's the radar tracking of the jets departing the airbase, flying over the area that was attacked, and returning to base. The only part of that that I don't accept at face value is the social media report of the pilot getting recognized. There's nothing circumstantial about witness, SIGINT, and radar when the pieces cover each other.
dandad wrote:Just curious. Was reading this morning that there are markers in sarin gas that can link it to Syria?
Best to get more detailed info from a real chemist. In the interim, I'm aware that in addition to the markers that can be included, there can be telltale impurities in the Sarin that can tie the substance to a method of production or to a producer that's known to be contaminated. That's a bit more 'CSI' and circumstantial, though.

Re: Im no sarin gas chemist, but i read as i slept in a holi

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That to me is coincidental. Radar cannot tell what is dropped and eyewitness reports serve agendas when needed. Sure people were gassed that appears pretty clear. There are too many factions in Syria. From all accounts the government forces are winning. It doesn't make sense. What makes more sense (speculation) is that a third party with a vested interest in seeing the US drawn in, considered neither the government or the people on the ground their people, received intel that a government plane was heading for an attack, had access to old stock piles of chemical weapons and had a plan to capitalize exactly like this knowing that blame could be placed on the government forces. That's just speculation, but it has as much proof and possibility to be true as any other.
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Re: Im no sarin gas chemist, but i read as i slept in a holi

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sikacz wrote:That to me is coincidental. Radar cannot tell what is dropped and eyewitness reports serve agendas when needed. Sure people were gassed that appears pretty clear.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ttack.html
US intelligence officials have intercepted communications that feature Syrian soldiers preparing for last week's chemical attack that left 86 people dead, including at least 27 children.

The Syrian government forces were caught on the intercepts consulting chemical experts just hours before the sarin nerve agent attack on the Syrian town of Khan Sheikhoun, a senior US official told CNN.
One piece or two (radar, witness) might be discounted in different ways, but when we have 1. intercept of crews prepping a weapon, 2. intercept of the pilot making the flight, 3. radar of the flight path, 4. witness saying they saw the aircraft at the correct time dropping a bomb, and 5, people dying (with multiple independent confirmations that they died from Sarin exposure) that moves the needle pretty hard against the peg.

Re: Im no sarin gas chemist, but i read as i slept in a holi

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We had intel info about Iraq too. Sorry, I don't care for wars based on emotion and lack of evidence and our intel saying something is not evidence. How do they know who was on the other side of the conversation if it even happened. To me this is a "think of the children" and "we must do something". The only must I see is to stay neutral until the dust settles. How many sides in this conflict anyway, more than I can recall and certainly more than two. But then we've now taken sides so being a neutral entity is out. Propaganda is easy to make. Evidence is a bit harder. Do you really trust the media and our government sources? I'm not inclined to trust them that easily. Molotov famously said he was delivering bread baskets to Finland. We in return served him cocktails. The truth is somewhere between perception and reality. War is a messy business, and it is a racket. I always look for who benefits. Until we know that we won't know who does what in Syria.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Im no sarin gas chemist, but i read as i slept in a holi

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The long term deal is that we want a Mediterranean port for oil pipelines from Iraq and Iran. For 30+ years we were working with Turkey, since that would give us independent paths from each country. But things went wrong over and over again with the Turks. Then we fell back to keeping Iraq tied up as a doorway to Iran. But we still needed a country with a Med port that wouldn't cause an international Moslem uprising (Oops, how did that happen?!) so Syria will just have to get out of the way now. To keep this dirty business quiet, a bunch of folks from the Rand Corporation "retired" early on in the process and opened their own little shops to handle all the intel and infrastructure planning as private business, since that minimized the number of people with direct knowledge.

But what do I know? I don't follow the news or anything. I waste my time having lunch or coffee with a bunch of useless Old Crows: http://www.crows.org

It's not just liberal gun owners who have their own clubs.

Re: Im no sarin gas chemist, but i read as i slept in a holi

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But what do I know? I don't follow the news or anything. I waste my time having lunch or coffee with a bunch of useless Old Crows: http://www.crows.org

It's not just liberal gun owners who have their own clubs.
May Dad and Father-in-law would have fit right in.

My Dad was the Assistant Maintenance Supervisor A&E for Radar Communications, EW, ECM, and Gunnery for the 55th Strategic Reconnoissance Wing from 1957 thru 1963. Help develop some the black boxes.

May Father-In-Law was in the service as Radio and Electronics Operator with the RB-36 out of Grand Rapids SD in the mid 1950s. Later he was employed by E-Systems. He couldn't say what he did, but his badge said Electronic Warfare. He would only say that he had to correct the engineers mistakes to get the boxes working for the customers.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: Im no sarin gas chemist, but i read as i slept in a holi

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TrueTexan wrote:
But what do I know? I don't follow the news or anything. I waste my time having lunch or coffee with a bunch of useless Old Crows: http://www.crows.org

It's not just liberal gun owners who have their own clubs.
May Dad and Father-in-law would have fit right in.

My Dad was the Assistant Maintenance Supervisor A&E for Radar Communications, EW, ECM, and Gunnery for the 55th Strategic Reconnoissance Wing from 1957 thru 1963. Help develop some the black boxes.

May Father-In-Law was in the service as Radio and Electronics Operator with the RB-36 out of Grand Rapids SD in the mid 1950s. Later he was employed by E-Systems. He couldn't say what he did, but his badge said Electronic Warfare. He would only say that he had to correct the engineers mistakes to get the boxes working for the customers.
Yep. There's been a huge number of Old Crows. You don't hear about them because they all have high clearance. For the most part, they can only talk to other Old Crows!

Re: Im no sarin gas chemist, but i read as i slept in a holi

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Sarge wrote:Well ,sorry didn't know y'all had already decided who didn't do it.

As to that radar can't see dropped stuff... you might be wrong

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Dome we make version too uses radar to track stuff as small s 60mm mortar shells and shoot them down.

http://proceedings.spiedigitallibrary.o ... eid=974277 detects rifle bullets

So it depends but it is not out of the question
Phase array radar makes it possible to interpolate the data from many closely associated radar units. The pulse timing of the units is controlled so that they overlap. This results in vastly improved resolution.
We also have truly humongous optical detectors (like the image sensors in digital cameras) in low earth orbit that can probably tell when you last shaved. But none of these things works unless you point them at likely targets and something happens. It's about as random as highway radar. Much easier to fake up the data you want.

Re: Im no sarin gas chemist, but i read as i slept in a holi

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pokute wrote:But what do I know? I don't follow the news or anything. I waste my time having lunch or coffee with a bunch of useless Old Crows: http://www.crows.org
I'm a retired SIGINTer and used to be in the Crows. The experience can help with background when the media makes a mess of things. But it seems the public is so conditioned to the stories they want to believe that facts are a lost cause.

Re: Im no sarin gas chemist, but i read as i slept in a holi

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AndyH wrote:
pokute wrote:But what do I know? I don't follow the news or anything. I waste my time having lunch or coffee with a bunch of useless Old Crows: http://www.crows.org
I'm a retired SIGINTer and used to be in the Crows. The experience can help with background when the media makes a mess of things. But it seems the public is so conditioned to the stories they want to believe that facts are a lost cause.
The corporate media and the corporate elites are the problem. They control the means of propaganda.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Im no sarin gas chemist, but i read as i slept in a holi

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The corporate everything. I overheard a member of our legal team praising Trump to the heavens, while we're scrambling to figure out how to protect faculty, staff, and students from immigration bingo. All the lawyer cared about was how low his tax rate might go. Couldn't give two poops about science. Guess we're all just working here to pay for his Viagra and BMW, his wife's rubber tits, and his kids drug rehab.

Re: Im no sarin gas chemist, but i read as i slept in a holi

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pokute wrote:The corporate everything. I overheard a member of our legal team praising Trump to the heavens, while we're scrambling to figure out how to protect faculty, staff, and students from immigration bingo. All the lawyer cared about was how low his tax rate might go. Couldn't give two poops about science. Guess we're all just working here to pay for his Viagra and BMW, his wife's rubber tits, and his kids drug rehab.
Well, there is that.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

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