Applying for Title II gear using your Corporation

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Opinions please!

Since my state has recently joined the 'reasonable world' by making legal the use of suppressors up here in The Land Of Perpetual Sunshine (Washington State, and thanks to DEMOCRATS I might add,) I am going to get off my buns and acquire a .22 suppressor -while I still can.

So... many people I work with have gone the Title II routine (BATFE Form 4) of using Certification of Trust which sounds a bit of a hassle, since I have my Corporation just sitting here and don't own any Will Making software.

Do we have any of the LGC who have used the Corporate method, and if not, why not?
"il corporativismo è la pietra angolare dello Stato fascista" Translated, this means: "boom-shacka-lacka-lacka,-boom-boom-boom.

Re: Applying for Title II gear using your Corporation

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DoctorB wrote:Opinions please!

Since my state has recently joined the 'reasonable world' by making legal the use of suppressors up here in The Land Of Perpetual Sunshine (Washington State, and thanks to DEMOCRATS I might add,) I am going to get off my buns and acquire a .22 suppressor -while I still can.

So... many people I work with have gone the Title II routine (BATFE Form 4) of using Certification of Trust which sounds a bit of a hassle, since I have my Corporation just sitting here and don't own any Will Making software.

Do we have any of the LGC who have used the Corporate method, and if not, why not?
Okay, I just looked up that particular rep who sponsored that bill and my eyeballs just about dropped out of my head. 100% rating from the NRA but votes primarily social liberal. Why the precise fuck do we not have more reps like him out there?
My official title is Doctor Mister Hunter Of Skullyness. Don't ask me, ask Fukshot.

The moral certainty of the crusader is as much a comfort to them as it is a burden to those in the path of their crusade.

Re: Applying for Title II gear using your Corporation

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M4Builder wrote:Why not just buy one instead of going through the trust? If I'm not mistaken, trusts are usually for buy machine guns since 10 people can afford it but 1 person usually can't.
I am not going through a trust, the question is what is your experience in using your Corporation for the transfer. But OK I'll bite. :-)

Actually trusts are a tool to maintain custody of the equipment once the original owner dies. Those and Corporations are exempt from the fingerprints/photos and Sheriff approval. They both do allow for multiple users of the equipment, too, as you said.

By "just buy one" I think you mean why not do the fingerprints/sheriff/photos routine. Here in our county the sheriff's office is, let's say to be polite, not exactly accessible, they don't do ink fingerprints (only the IAFIS) and both the sign-off and 2 sets of prints are required with your Form 4 application for the tax stamp, as you probably know.

So getting the prints means lining up a private contractor, another $20 and several hours chasing them around. I had to drive two hours to get the last set done, and traffic here is the worst in the nation.

On top of those considerations, I don't know if the county Sheriff will even DO it for anyone. Many municipalities will not. It's illegal for them to refuse, but boo hoo whatcha gonna do? Arrest the Sheriff?

Since I have my corporation already, it looks like a MUCH easier path. But now I'm answering questions instead of getting answers. So it goes. :laugh:

My co-workers in nearby King county have skipped the Sheriff route and gone the Trust route, their choices didn't have anything to do with any group buy sort of affair. That being the case I decided to also skip the Sheriff/Prints/Photo hoops and make it part of company inventory.

*************

Hunter is right, it was a great turn of events, and really none of us saw it coming. The mood of many fellow investigators here was, "it'll never happen". But the deal was: nothing in the law permitted ANYONE to use suppressors, not even the police, but they were using them all the time. We could own them, but we coud not legally use them. Sounds nuts but it was true for years.

So something had to be done about it, and fortunately maybe even miraculously, they for once didn't exclude the citizens of the state. But who knows how long this will last?

With some of the AWB's mentioning "threaded barrels" as a gun's ticket to "Assault Weaponland" I am thinking, let's get it while gettin's possible. :laugh:

And SG, yes the cows out at the firing hole will be probably spooked because it's not noisy enough! Those bovines are something else. :happy:
"il corporativismo è la pietra angolare dello Stato fascista" Translated, this means: "boom-shacka-lacka-lacka,-boom-boom-boom.

Re: Applying for Title II gear using your Corporation

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Inquisitor, you can create the Certification Of Trust you need using Quicken WillMaker Plus; between $25 and $30 depending on the version you get.

One thing to remember, according to attorney Derik DeBrossey, anyhow... the Trust-owned equipment should be purchased through a bank account owned by the Trust to avoid possible NFA violations. It's items like that that have me shying away from the Trust route.

I am not on the right machine to post the proper links, I have some on the office one that I'll post next opportunity that helped me a great deal.
"il corporativismo è la pietra angolare dello Stato fascista" Translated, this means: "boom-shacka-lacka-lacka,-boom-boom-boom.

Re: Applying for Title II gear using your Corporation

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I plan on getting an NFA trust for a couple reasons. I shoot (or rather, will shoot) more than one caliber so multiple cans will be owned; I have relatives in a couple different states and am not sure who would end up with them when I am gone; not too sure that my CLEO will remain 'ok' with civilian ownership and may stop signing Form 4's.

Durable trusts have zero financial upkeep so they work better than the majority of corporations. YMMV
In a bacon, egg and cheese sandwich the chicken and cow are involved while the pig is committed.

Re: Applying for Title II gear using your Corporation

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Transferring to Corporation is same as buying as a "Responsible Person" or nfa revocable trust, in that you place the Corporation as the transferee on your Form 4.

One important difference is that only one "responsible person" can posess and any Corporate officers can posess, as can any members of the Trust.

If you have access to an experienced NFA attorney then the way to an NFA Trust is clear for you. If you own a company like I do, and don't intend to dissolve it, then this might be a better fit.

Some helpful links:

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5320-4.pdf

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5330-20.pdf

http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/form4.html

http://www.silencerco.com/?section=Educ ... =Ownership

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/nationa ... ncers.html



For Corporations/Trusts:

1.Obtain the ATF Form 4 (5320.4) (Application for Tax Paid Transfer and Registration of Firearm) from your dealer in duplicate.

Some information should be pre-filled by your dealer, such as the dealer’s name and address, the model of the silencer you are purchasing, the overall length of the silencer, the caliber of the silencer, the serial number of the silencer, and the manufacturer’s information. Make sure the dealer signs the appropriate fields. Remember to complete all information in duplicate.

2.Fill out the required information on the front of the form, including the name of your corporation or trust (not your own name) and address.

Complete the back by answering the questions and stating the reason you are acquiring the silencer. (Remember to print the name of your corporation or trust, not your own name, in section 15).

Sign and date the back. Remember to complete all information in duplicate.

3.Place both completed copies of Form 4 with a check or money order (payable to Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives) for $200 in an envelope, along with a copy of your Articles of Incorporation or trust paperwork, and mail to the address listed on Form 4.

We (SilencerCo) advise that you use a check and not a money order so you can see when the ATF cashes your check. This is a great way to confirm if the form actually arrived and is being processed. Otherwise, you may just be waiting for two to six months for approval, when, in fact, your paperwork never arrived.

4.After the ATF approves Form 4, they will put a stamp on one of the two copies you sent them and then send it to the dealer where you purchased the silencer. The dealer will then notify you that the paperwork has returned and that the silencer is ready to pick up.


AS AN INDIVIDUAL

1.Obtain the ATF Form 4 (5320.4) (Application for Tax Paid Transfer and Registration of Firearm) from your dealer in duplicate. Some information should be pre-filled by your dealer, such as the dealer’s name and address, the model of the silencer you are purchasing, the overall length of the silencer, the caliber of the silencer, the serial number of the silencer, and the manufacturer’s information. Make sure the dealer signs the appropriate fields. Remember to complete all information in duplicate.

2.Fill out the required information on the front of the form, including your name and address. Complete the back by answering the questions and stating the reason you are acquiring the silencer. Sign and date the back of the form. Again, remember to complete all information in duplicate.

3.Affix a recent color passport-sized photograph of yourself on the back of each copy of the form.

4.Acquire a signature of the chief law enforcement officer of your county or your local sheriff. Don’t let this step scare you; this is a routine request. If you feel that your police chief or sheriff will not sign the Form 4 because of personal or political concerns with the second amendment, do not worry. You can bypass them by purchasing the silencer under your Limited Liability Company (LLC) or corporation, or under a trust. Read the section below on how to fill out Form 4 as a trust or a corporation.

5.While you are at the station obtaining the required signature, ink up your fingers and get two copies of FBI fingerprint cards (FBI Form FD-258) that you will send in with the two duplicates of Form 4.

6.Fill out the ATF Form 5330.20 (Certification of Compliance). This form does not have to be in duplicate.

7.Place both completed copies of Form 4, the two copies of FBI fingerprint cards, and the completed Certification of Compliance form in an envelope, along with a check or money order (payable to Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives) for $200 and mail to the address listed on Form 4. We advise that you use a check and not a money order so you can see when the ATF cashes your check. This is a great way to confirm if the form actually arrived and is being processed. Otherwise, you may just be waiting for two to six months for approval, when, in fact, your paperwork never arrived.

8.After the ATF approves Form 4, they will put a stamp on one of the two copies you sent them and then send it to the dealer where you purchased the silencer. The dealer will then notify you that the paperwork has returned and that the silencer is ready to pick up.
"il corporativismo è la pietra angolare dello Stato fascista" Translated, this means: "boom-shacka-lacka-lacka,-boom-boom-boom.

Re: Applying for Title II gear using your Corporation

13
And here's how it turned out:

Once I got to the Class III dealers (Wade's in Bellevue) the sales guy advised that if the Corporation should fail to do some procedure, such as have the annual meeting, then technically my NFA transfer could be void.

Now as a practical matter, who is going to go through my records to confirm every annual meeting was held? Nobody. BUT-

The store offers a free Revocable Living Trust setup and what really sold me on the Trust was that if I should someday sell the business the supressor status is not affected.

So we did the Form-4's in duplicate under the Revocable Living Trust, I gave Wade's my $200 check to BATF, paid for the supressor, got two copies of the Trust paperwork and that was all there was to it.

The supressor goes into their safe for 6 months while we wait for BATFE to run the application and mail my tax stamp back.

Now you know. :)


BTW, the ATF Form 5330.20 is probably for the purchases using the "reasonable person" i.e., fingerprints, picture, sheriff sign-off method; but the sales guy has seen nobody ever buy any NFA gear that way; as a practical matter (he said) it's impossible to get King County police to sign off on an NFA purchase- only in the smaller towns where the police chief or sheriff knows everybody is it remotely possible.

:construction:
"il corporativismo è la pietra angolare dello Stato fascista" Translated, this means: "boom-shacka-lacka-lacka,-boom-boom-boom.

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