H&K G36 too inaccurate for German military

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As we all know, the German military mostly uses H&K assault rifles (Sturmgewehr). Now there is a big political fracas: they just upgraded to the new G36 a few years ago, and those are turning out to be ... oh the horror ... INACCURATE. In particular in hot climates (like on peacekeeping missions in Africa, or in Afghanistan), or when you shoot them so much that the barrel gets warm.

Couldn't find many press articles in English. Here is one. As usual, Die Zeit has an unbiased and readable report. I just don't know how accurate any of the reporting is. (Wasn't that a great pun?)

I'm not trying to make any particular point about politics here, otherwise I would add a throwaway joke about Swiss, French, or Greek guns. Perhaps even Israeli ones ... it would be quite amusing if the German military started importing Galil rifles. I'm just pointing out an interesting bit of gunnery news.

Re: H&K G36 too inaccurate for German military

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No the root of the problem is not an inherent inaccuracy of the rifle, G36's are very accurate under normal conditions. However, they don't handle heat build up very well, particularly that of sustained full auto firing. It's part of the reason the MG36 never really went anywhere. Under normal conditions the G36 does very well, however the Germans found that they where doing a lot more full auto work in combat than they where expecting (they where working off their experiences with the G3), and as they where doing it near the equator in Afghanistan it only compounded the problem. Some think that the problems with the G36 can be solved, however the Germans don't seem interested in ponying up the cash for that. So the G36 will be gone soon, all hail the G38.

Glad I have my G36 build already underway, before too long I am going to have to get myself a G38 to go along with it.
Pompous, with a touch of elitism.

Re: H&K G36 too inaccurate for German military

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wlewisiii wrote:It was my understanding that the problem with these was badly designed ammo - where the copper jacket was too thin. Has there been studies since a year ago on various ammo types?
i read the same thing. The DM11(?) round was poorly manufacture not just in the jacket.


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Re: H&K G36 too inaccurate for German military

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lurker wrote:i guess there's no chance we'll see these as surplus.
Well, according to this newspaper article from the respected conservative newspaper Die Welt, the problem of surplus will be solved: To make sure the balance of power between ISIS and the Kurds is even, the Bundeswehr will donate all the inaccurate G36 rifles to ISIS, so they can't shoot straight either. Another proposal that was considered and rejected was to move the middle east conflict to the northeast German province of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, which traditionally has cold and rainy weather, thereby making overheating of the barrels not an issue.

(If it isn't clear yet: the article I'm quoting above, which is indeed being published in Die Welt, is satire.)

OK, back to being serious. The whole scandal seems difficult to understand, and the information I find in the German press seems contradictory. First off, they did tests of the G36 against other assault rifle models, presumably using the same standard-issue ammo, and found that the other rifles do fine, but the G36 does not. Second, as already mentioned by Nato above, it seems that the standard testing protocol which was used during procurement and is still being used by H&K does not include testing at temperatures that occur in Afghanistan or Syria, but don't occur in the Fulda gap, nor does it include much sustained full-auto fire. The next thing that is really weird is that H&K seems to be very upset at the criticism coming from the defense ministry, even though they would be the biggest benefactor: if the Bundeswehr decides that the G36 is inadequate, they will have to upgrade to a new weapon, and buy replacements, from ... drum roll ... H&K.

The reason this is a political fracas is multi-faceted. First off, the Bundeswehr and Luftwaffe have had a series of scandals recently, because it turns out that a large fraction of their hardware is not functioning. They had to beg and borrow transport planes to get their soldiers to the middle east, because their own planes were nearly all unusable. The guns on German tanks are dysfunctional. The chancellor's VIP plane regularly has to make emergency landings because it fills with smoke. In Afghanistan, the German troops didn't exactly cover themselves with glory, rather on the contrary. So right now anytime something goes wrong in German defense, the existing series of scandals can be easily extended.

The other important ingredient is that the German minister of defense is an interesting political animal: The daughter of a very influential politician (prime minister of a large state, and party leader), with extremely powerful connections in the ruling christian-conservative party, married to a scion of German nobility, with a degree from the London School of Economics, an expert on public health policy. She is powerful enough in party circles that she had to be given a big and important office, and "just" being minister for family and public health was not sufficient. This means that scandals involving military hardware take on a different flavor, with the minister of defense having no subject matter expertise, but excellent political connections. The press obviously likes these kinds of contradictions.
Last edited by treelogger on Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: H&K G36 too inaccurate for German military

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senorgrand wrote:Could you just put the HKs on a diet of three shot bursts?
Of course, but this is the German military we are talking about. They aren't happy till they are happy. Also changing rifles is not a huge deal for them any more as they have reduced their military size they only have to buy 200-250k rifle to refit the entire military. They have already had the g38 go through all the selection and testing so it's sitting there ready to go. They just have to throw money at HK and the deed is done.
Pompous, with a touch of elitism.

Re: H&K G36 too inaccurate for German military

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treelogger wrote:The other important ingredient is that the German minister of defense is an interesting political animal: The daughter of a very influential politician (prime minister of a large state, and party leader), with extremely powerful connections in the ruling christian-conservative party, married to a scion of German nobility, with a degree from the London School of Economics, an expert on public health policy.
And just to clarify that I'm an equal-opportunity cynic: I'm not just dumping on the northern German Baroness von der Leyen (on her father's side, she's descended from the Barons Albrecht of the Hanseatic City of Bremen, and she married a descendent of the silk-and-velvet family von der Leyen, which were lifted to the nobility rank of Baron by Napoleon).

Her predecessor, Freiherr von und zu Guttenberg (Baron Guttenberg) was if anything worse, even though he is male and from southern Germany. He is the rich scion of a powerful and well-connected conservative family, descended from some German emperor, and married to a lady who is a descendent of Fuerst von Bismarck (the imperial chancellor, Prince BIsmarck). He wasn't just completely incompetent; in addition it turned out that his dissertation had been plagiarized, causing him to lose his doctoral degree, and having to resign from all his political positions.

Which goes to prove that low morals and incompetence occur both in males and females, and both in northern and southern Germans. But the fascinating combination of those attributes with powerful political connections and positions of great influence (like defense secretary) seem to to occur more frequently in members of the wealthy hereditary nobility.

Spock would say: Fascinating.

Re: H&K G36 too inaccurate for German military

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senorgrand wrote:Could you just put the HKs on a diet of three shot bursts?
One source I read (I can't find it at the moment) said that the rifle didn't hold up well to 5 magazines of rapid fire, even if the magazines were shot in bursts. That is a bout half of what a US infantryman carries at once. Long full-auto bursts tend not to be practiced with most infantry rifles.

The real problem is apparently the barrel diameter, which is equivalent to the lightweight or "pencil" barrels seen on some civilian AR15s or the old style Mini 14s. Minis of course have a reputation for getting a bad case of barrel flop after a magazine or two.

Re: H&K G36 too inaccurate for German military

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The plat has thickened some what in this story, The Saudi's have doubled down on the G36 and are not only making it their primary service rifle, they have completed an agreement with HK to produce the G36 themselves. Also it looks like the MoD might have doctored the report.....

At any rate, my G36 is nearing completion... I will have to do a test.
Pompous, with a touch of elitism.

Re: H&K G36 too inaccurate for German military

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The other fun thing that came out in the news a week or so ago: H&K executives had the staff of the military acquisition department arrange a meeting with the military intelligence and security office (MAD, Militaerischer Abschirm-Dienst), and requested that the spooks rough up the journalists who have been writing about this story. Fortunately, the boss of the MAD declined. Unfortunately, the H&K folks were dumb enough to leave paperwork behind, which is now being read with great glee by the opposition parties in parliament.

The whole thing reeks of banana republic. Not the kind of image the Germans have of themselves, nor what they want to project into the world.

Re: H&K G36 too inaccurate for German military

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Tree logger, go read the last 3 or 4 press release from Hk That all came out in May. They have gone from righteous indignation to out right foaming at the mouth anger. This shit is getting hilarious, the German papers seem to be out for blood from absolutely everyone with the politicians blaming HK, HK blaming 3 guys at the German army testing center, the army testing center siding with the politicians, the police testing center siding with HK. I don't kno what to believe, other than this is a right royal cluster fuck, and far more entertaining than reality TV. Also HK is now sueing the German government for the full testing repot because appearently no one ever told HK or anyone else what the testing methodology was for the latest round of tests.... And I thought American arms procurement was screwed up.
Pompous, with a touch of elitism.

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