Re: Philando Castile

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Mustang wrote:<Snipped out a great deal because it nauseated me>
That kind of concentration of violent crime in the African-American community means that Police Officers often confront violent, resisting subjects more frequently in African American neighborhoods.

This is further supported by FBI statistics...in the decade ending in 2013, over 40% of cop-killers were African American, despite being less than 15% of the overall population.

According to Heather McDonald, Police Officers are killed by African Americans at a rate 2.5 times higher than the rate at which African-Americans are killed by Police.
There's an interesting "tell" in your post above. You capitalize Police Officers. It must be almost reflexive because you do it every time you use the words.

I'll leave it to others to decide for themselves why you felt it necessary to post such an ugly statement. I think I know, and I think your little stylistic tic explains a great deal.
When you side with a man, you stay with him -- Pike Bishop
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Re: Philando Castile

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Mustang wrote:The disproportionate rate at which African-Americans are fatally shot by police could well be accounted for by the disproportionate amount of violent crime in African American neighborhoods.
I'm very encouraged that you cite sources and seem to be interested in applying the information - good on you.

Give these a read next, as an exercise in taking "why" to the next level.

http://www.epi.org/publication/making-ferguson/

http://www.epi.org/blog/from-ferguson-t ... gregation/

Re: Philando Castile

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Paco wrote:
Mustang wrote:<Snipped out a great deal because it nauseated me>
That kind of concentration of violent crime in the African-American community means that Police Officers often confront violent, resisting subjects more frequently in African American neighborhoods.

This is further supported by FBI statistics...in the decade ending in 2013, over 40% of cop-killers were African American, despite being less than 15% of the overall population.

According to Heather McDonald, Police Officers are killed by African Americans at a rate 2.5 times higher than the rate at which African-Americans are killed by Police.
There's an interesting "tell" in your post above. You capitalize Police Officers. It must be almost reflexive because you do it every time you use the words.

I'll leave it to others to decide for themselves why you felt it necessary to post such an ugly statement. I think I know, and I think your little stylistic tic explains a great deal.

I also capitalized "African American" in the post.

Interesting that you describe a statement that is based wholly on statistics and links to the US Bureau of Justice statistics and the FBI as "ugly". The statistics are what they are.

Paco, I've noticed that you greet every disagreement with outrage and suggestions of racism on the part of those who disagree with you. Is that really all that you have?

Re: Philando Castile

54
Mustang wrote:
According to Heather McDonald, Police Officers are killed by African Americans at a rate 2.5 times higher than the rate at which African-Americans are killed by Police.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myths-o ... 1468087453
Why that Ms. MacDonald (note the "a" in the name) sure does some fancy statistics! Given that 2015 was just about one of the safest years for police in US history, with more dying from traffic accidents than gunfire, I wonder what kind of denominator she came up with to make 16 police deaths bigger than 400 citizen deaths.

I think you have to have an advanced punditry degree to learn that kind of fancy math.
Aim past the target.

Image


Image

Re: Philando Castile

55
Mustang wrote:
Paco wrote: There's an interesting "tell" in your post above. You capitalize Police Officers. It must be almost reflexive because you do it every time you use the words.

I'll leave it to others to decide for themselves why you felt it necessary to post such an ugly statement. I think I know, and I think your little stylistic tic explains a great deal.

I also capitalized "African American" in the post.

Interesting that you describe a statement that is based wholly on statistics and links to the US Bureau of Justice statistics and the FBI as "ugly". The statistics are what they are.

Paco, I've noticed that you greet every disagreement with outrage and suggestions of racism on the part of those who disagree with you. Is that really all that you have?
I made a mental note when I posted that comment about your "tell." I remember it exactly. I thought, "I'm damn near positive he'll respond indicating that he was creating some sort of equivalence between police and African Americans."

You capitalize African Americans therefore you must capitalize Police. Or, in your case, vice versa.

Great guess on my part? Hardly. That odd equation was blatant.

But here's the thing: You should always capitalize "African American." Why? Because that is proper usage. You get no credit for it. But repeatedly capitalizing "Police Officers" and then pointing out that you extended the same status to Black people is flat out weird.

As for your stats, I don't question your citations. I just wonder why you chose to post them. What did those cherry-picked numbers add to this discussion? What did the phrase "cop-killers" contribute here?

But, no, Mustang, you don't outrage me. I think you're a great white american.
When you side with a man, you stay with him -- Pike Bishop
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Re: Philando Castile

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AndyH wrote:
dougb wrote: I do like to have them proven illegal before the hanging.
That, in a nutshell, is what the protesters are demanding. Fair treatment is achieveable for those of us that are swimming in white privilege. For anyone that doesn't readily sunburn, though, it's more miss than hit.
dougb wrote: I don't see actions spread widely geographically as trends. A shooting in NYC has nothing to do with a shooting in California or New Orleans.
One must be open to the basic concept of a trend before they can see what's there - that's basic science, analysis 101. Be open to all the information, then collect, then rack/stack/evaluate. Sometimes a shooting in NYC absolutely does have something to do with a shooting in St Paul or Miami.

One thing I've seen here, dougb, is that a lot of people seem willing to put all the pieces on the table and examine each - not unlike field stripping and inspecting a weapon. A couple of others seem to prefer the broad-brush admonition that the weapon is always fine and that it's unreasonable to inspect that bar or spring. While they're welcome to their opinions, they're going to be really uncomfortable when everyone's sitting around with their sidearm taken to pieces on the table.

edit... Of course, having an expert or three around can be useful as well.
SOURCE wrote:Corey Pegues, a former deputy inspector in the New York Police Department and author of the book Once a Cop: The Street, The Law, Two Worlds, One Man, said, “Every black cop in America was looking at their TV this week and watching the execution of Castile and Sterling and they were feeling really bad about being a cop because that’s not what being a cop is. These weren’t mistakes. These were executions.”

In the meantime, he added, black police officers “have family members getting stopped and frisked and wrongfully locked up, and then wake up in the morning and see that 10 cops are shot.”
Corey Pegues may be an expert, and it may have been an execution, but Corey Pegues wasn't on scene so he doesn't know any more than the man in the street, who at this point, may know that someone black was shot by the police. After that, all he has is an educated wild ass guess. Same as any every one else.
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.
- Ronald Reagan

Re: Philando Castile

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dougb wrote:
AndyH wrote:
dougb wrote: I do like to have them proven illegal before the hanging.
That, in a nutshell, is what the protesters are demanding. Fair treatment is achieveable for those of us that are swimming in white privilege. For anyone that doesn't readily sunburn, though, it's more miss than hit.
dougb wrote: I don't see actions spread widely geographically as trends. A shooting in NYC has nothing to do with a shooting in California or New Orleans.
One must be open to the basic concept of a trend before they can see what's there - that's basic science, analysis 101. Be open to all the information, then collect, then rack/stack/evaluate. Sometimes a shooting in NYC absolutely does have something to do with a shooting in St Paul or Miami.

One thing I've seen here, dougb, is that a lot of people seem willing to put all the pieces on the table and examine each - not unlike field stripping and inspecting a weapon. A couple of others seem to prefer the broad-brush admonition that the weapon is always fine and that it's unreasonable to inspect that bar or spring. While they're welcome to their opinions, they're going to be really uncomfortable when everyone's sitting around with their sidearm taken to pieces on the table.

edit... Of course, having an expert or three around can be useful as well.
SOURCE wrote:Corey Pegues, a former deputy inspector in the New York Police Department and author of the book Once a Cop: The Street, The Law, Two Worlds, One Man, said, “Every black cop in America was looking at their TV this week and watching the execution of Castile and Sterling and they were feeling really bad about being a cop because that’s not what being a cop is. These weren’t mistakes. These were executions.”

In the meantime, he added, black police officers “have family members getting stopped and frisked and wrongfully locked up, and then wake up in the morning and see that 10 cops are shot.”
Corey Pegues may be an expert, and it may have been an execution, but Corey Pegues wasn't on scene so he doesn't know any more than the man in the street, who at this point, may know that someone black was shot by the police. After that, all he has is an educated wild ass guess. Same as any every one else.
The difference dougb is that he's very likely to still be connected with his community, and is still black. I'd wager my next month's VA check that he knows and understands much more than the man or woman on the street - unless that man or woman are also black police officers with their careers behind them. I'd say his opinion is worth much, much more than a wild ass guess - educated or not.

Re: Philando Castile

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http://www.cbsnews.com/news/philando-ca ... un-permit/
MINNEAPOLIS -- The family of a man shot and killed by a Minnesota police officer last week has provided CBS Minnesota with a copy of his permit to carry a firearm.

Philando Castile was killed during a traffic stop on July 6 by St. Anthony Officer Jeronimo Yanez. Castile's girlfriend, Diamond Reynolds, live streamed the aftermath of the shooting on Facebook, and the video sparked days of protest over the death of Castile, a school cafeteria supervisor who was 32.

Reynolds said Castile had just informed Yanez that he had a permit to carry a firearm, and was reaching for his wallet when Yanez fired.
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ɯɯ6 bdd ɹǝɥʇןɐʍ
13ʞ
"ǝuıqɹɐɔ 1ɐ4ɯ" dɯɐʇsןןoɹ --- ɯoɔos0269ǝן ʇןoɔ
"ǝuıqɹɐɔ ʇuǝɯǝɔɹoɟuǝ ʍɐן sʇןoɔ" dɯɐʇsןןoɹ --- 0269ǝן ʇןoɔ
(béɟ) 59-pɯɐ

Re: Philando Castile

59
Unless I missed it I haven't read how Yanezs gun came out. Both he and Kauser claim they where responding to a suspected armed robber, did they approach the car with guns drawn or holstered? My gut feeling is that this was a very tragic panic shoot. I'm not buying this bullshit about him fitting the description of the armed robber, he had clean shaven cheeks and Philando had a full beard, only a werewolf grows facial hair that fast.

Re: Philando Castile

60
AndyH wrote:
dougb wrote:
AndyH wrote:
dougb wrote: I do like to have them proven illegal before the hanging.
That, in a nutshell, is what the protesters are demanding. Fair treatment is achieveable for those of us that are swimming in white privilege. For anyone that doesn't readily sunburn, though, it's more miss than hit.
dougb wrote: I don't see actions spread widely geographically as trends. A shooting in NYC has nothing to do with a shooting in California or New Orleans.
One must be open to the basic concept of a trend before they can see what's there - that's basic science, analysis 101. Be open to all the information, then collect, then rack/stack/evaluate. Sometimes a shooting in NYC absolutely does have something to do with a shooting in St Paul or Miami.

One thing I've seen here, dougb, is that a lot of people seem willing to put all the pieces on the table and examine each - not unlike field stripping and inspecting a weapon. A couple of others seem to prefer the broad-brush admonition that the weapon is always fine and that it's unreasonable to inspect that bar or spring. While they're welcome to their opinions, they're going to be really uncomfortable when everyone's sitting around with their sidearm taken to pieces on the table.

edit... Of course, having an expert or three around can be useful as well.
SOURCE wrote:Corey Pegues, a former deputy inspector in the New York Police Department and author of the book Once a Cop: The Street, The Law, Two Worlds, One Man, said, “Every black cop in America was looking at their TV this week and watching the execution of Castile and Sterling and they were feeling really bad about being a cop because that’s not what being a cop is. These weren’t mistakes. These were executions.”

In the meantime, he added, black police officers “have family members getting stopped and frisked and wrongfully locked up, and then wake up in the morning and see that 10 cops are shot.”
Corey Pegues may be an expert, and it may have been an execution, but Corey Pegues wasn't on scene so he doesn't know any more than the man in the street, who at this point, may know that someone black was shot by the police. After that, all he has is an educated wild ass guess. Same as any every one else.
The difference dougb is that he's very likely to still be connected with his community, and is still black. I'd wager my next month's VA check that he knows and understands much more than the man or woman on the street - unless that man or woman are also black police officers with their careers behind them. I'd say his opinion is worth much, much more than a wild ass guess - educated or not.
He did say "may have been", which indicates that he knows his opinion is an opinion-and has the same value as a guess. We try people on facts. You want due process for any body, it has to be for every body. And that means facts are needed. He wasn't on scene. he isn't connected with the Minneapolis scene. How would he "know" about this event?
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.
- Ronald Reagan

Re: Philando Castile

63
JaxTeller wrote:Verdict just in. Not guilty on all counts.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
I'm interested in hearing how the jurors arrived at their verdict, looked like the prosecutor had a strong case.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/16/us/p ... stile.html
Last edited by highdesert on Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Philando Castile

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http://www.startribune.com/fifth-day-of ... 428862473/
“I thought I was going to die,” Yanez testified, with a packed courtroom hanging on his every word. “I had no other choice. I was forced to engage Mr. Castile. He was not complying with my directions.”
Well, he used the standard phrase and it worked again.

I'm thinking this should be chilling for all concealed carriers, not just the pigmentally challenged ones.

ETA...
highdesert wrote:I'm interested in hearing how the jurors arrived at their verdict, looked like the prosecutor had a strong case.
From an initial read of the StarTrib piece, it almost looks like jurors had full access to the officer's later comments, but they did not have access to earlier materials that didn't support the officer's story as nicely.

Shortly after receiving the case Monday, the jury asked if they could have a transcript of Yanez’s interview with Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension investigators. It was denied, leaving them with neither a recorded nor written account of an interview that featured prominently in the prosecution’s assertion that Yanez never saw a gun when he fired seven times at Castile; five rounds struck him.
Blame the victim.
Defense attorneys argued that Castile was culpably negligent in the shooting because he volunteered that he possessed a gun without disclosing that he had a permit to carry it, that he reached for it instead of keeping his hands visible, and that he was high on marijuana, rendering him incapable of following Yanez’s order not to reach for the gun.

Re: Philando Castile

65
AndyH wrote:http://www.startribune.com/fifth-day-of ... 428862473/
“I thought I was going to die,” Yanez testified, with a packed courtroom hanging on his every word. “I had no other choice. I was forced to engage Mr. Castile. He was not complying with my directions.”
Well, he used the standard phrase and it worked again.

I'm thinking this should be chilling for all concealed carriers, not just the pigmentally challenged ones.

ETA...
highdesert wrote:I'm interested in hearing how the jurors arrived at their verdict, looked like the prosecutor had a strong case.
From an initial read of the StarTrib piece, it almost looks like jurors had full access to the officer's later comments, but they did not have access to earlier materials that didn't support the officer's story as nicely.
Shortly after receiving the case Monday, the jury asked if they could have a transcript of Yanez’s interview with Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension investigators. It was denied, leaving them with neither a recorded nor written account of an interview that featured prominently in the prosecution’s assertion that Yanez never saw a gun when he fired seven times at Castile; five rounds struck him.
Where I live, I don't think anyone would expect anything different from the police. Announcing that you are carrying a concealed weapon, permitted or not, would become part of a calculation on the part of the cop that also includes clothing, skin color, hair length, sexual attractiveness, and age. Carrying gets you a big bump in your threat factor... Big enough so that any more points tip you over.

Re: Philando Castile

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https://www.facebook.com/OlsenTraining/ ... 7375121093
Ok, I know I have police officers who are following this page. Please explain what we are to tell our black students? This is literally making me angrier than anything ever has when it comes to cops 'fearing for their lives'.

He was a permit holder. He died. The cop panicked and killed him. The cop has now gotten away with killing Philando Castillo.

The take-away for me as a CCW Instructor is this: the police can kill us if we make them afraid, uneasy, or fear that they will not be going home to their families.

In many states - including Minnesota - we have no duty to tell them we are armed unless directly asked. If telling them we do have a firearm makes them fear us despite us not actively reaching for it to try and shoot them, I am now going to say to my students and anyone else who asks me that we are not to say we are armed unless LEO's directly ask us.
In a bacon, egg and cheese sandwich the chicken and cow are involved while the pig is committed.

Re: Philando Castile

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eelj wrote:Poorly trained chicken shit cop.

a few persuasive bigots on the jury. No such thing as "Minnesota nice", it's a myth.
They disagreed with you. Doesn't make them bigots. Calling them bigots doesn't make you right.

You were not on the jury and they haven't talked to the media yet, so you don't know why they decided this way. Cop reported smelling grass coming from the car. Tox screen showed that Castile was under the influence of TCP, and videos they took showed them smoking pot. Castile should not have been carrying while under the influence of anything. That is the law. The tcp could have effected his judgement to the point that he failed to respond to legal orders. Every instructor in the US probably emphasizes, that during a police stop, you keep your hands in the open and do not make a move that looks like you are going for the gun.

The stop might be questionable, but the cop seems to have a good self defense claim. The jury took their time before reaching their verdict and reviewed the evidence. All 12 agreed. They formed their opinions based on evidence and arguments on top of personal prejudices. The rest of us used media reports and personal prejudices. The juries opinion is the one that counts.
The cop shop did throw the cop under the bus out of fear of the masses and a public backlash from a small group of activists.
Juror #8: It's always difficult to keep personal prejudice out of a thing like this. And wherever you run into it, prejudice always obscures the truth. I don't really know what the truth is. I don't suppose anybody will ever really know. Nine of us now seem to feel that the defendant is innocent, but we're just gambling on probabilities - we may be wrong. We may be trying to let a guilty man go free, I don't know. Nobody really can. But we have a reasonable doubt, and that's something that's very valuable in our system. No jury can declare a man guilty unless it's sure.
12 Angry Men

It does go both ways. If you are anti cop, they can do nothing right.

Regarding Minnesota nice, it exists. Not always, not for every body. Maybe not so much in the big city.
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.
- Ronald Reagan

Re: Philando Castile

69
dougb wrote:
eelj wrote:Poorly trained chicken shit cop.

a few persuasive bigots on the jury. No such thing as "Minnesota nice", it's a myth.
They disagreed with you. Doesn't make them bigots. Calling them bigots doesn't make you right.

You were not on the jury and they haven't talked to the media yet, so you don't know why they decided this way. Cop reported smelling grass coming from the car. Tox screen showed that Castile was under the influence of TCP, and videos they took showed them smoking pot. Castile should not have been carrying while under the influence of anything. That is the law. The tcp could have effected his judgement to the point that he failed to respond to legal orders. Every instructor in the US probably emphasizes, that during a police stop, you keep your hands in the open and do not make a move that looks like you are going for the gun.

The stop might be questionable, but the cop seems to have a good self defense claim. The jury took their time before reaching their verdict and reviewed the evidence. All 12 agreed. They formed their opinions based on evidence and arguments on top of personal prejudices. The rest of us used media reports and personal prejudices. The juries opinion is the one that counts.
The cop shop did throw the cop under the bus out of fear of the masses and a public backlash from a small group of activists.
Juror #8: It's always difficult to keep personal prejudice out of a thing like this. And wherever you run into it, prejudice always obscures the truth. I don't really know what the truth is. I don't suppose anybody will ever really know. Nine of us now seem to feel that the defendant is innocent, but we're just gambling on probabilities - we may be wrong. We may be trying to let a guilty man go free, I don't know. Nobody really can. But we have a reasonable doubt, and that's something that's very valuable in our system. No jury can declare a man guilty unless it's sure.
12 Angry Men

It does go both ways. If you are anti cop, they can do nothing right.

Regarding Minnesota nice, it exists. Not always, not for every body. Maybe not so much in the big city.
First off Mr B I'm not a cop hater, that is a label used by people who do not believe they can make mistakes. I hate bad cops. I consider Mr Yanez a less than brilliant cop and a chicken shit who should have chosen a different line of work. He claims he was scared because he saw the gun, he lied the EMTs found the gun in the victims pocket.
Also if you haven't tried pot before you may not know this but it does not make you want to rape and kill, the movie reefer madness is bullshit. Philando Castile did not fit the description and photo of the armed robber, he had a full thick beard, hard to grow that much hair in a very few days. The only thing this cop was scared about after pulling over a young man with a young woman and a little child all buckled into their sear belts was the color of their skin, thats where the lousy training comes into it.

Re: Philando Castile

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I see the "police are always right" folks and the "the jury is always right" folks are here. It also appears that the facts of the actual event are taking 2nd place to the sport of debating the versions of reality as painted by the prosecution and defense in the courtroom. Let's not go down that path - this isn't about the jury.

Recall that the officer racially profiled Castile (the width of his nose), lied about the reason for the stop (a 'broken' taillight), ordered a driver with both hands on the steering wheel to produce his driver license, and then shot the driver when he thought he was going for the gun in his pocket rather than the wallet in a pocket about six inches away.

Think about that, concealed carriers, and put yourself in the position of the driver. Then hope the scared junior officer that pulls you over doesn't kill your kid when your wallet makes him 'fear for his life.'

Re: Philando Castile

71
"I have a gun and a concealed carry permit"
"Ok, please remove the gun"

"HE IS GOING FOR HIS GUN!"

Fuck this, Law Enforcers need to be 100% sure what the plan is when they come up on someone who is legally armed.

I seriously hope that Enforcer quits and finds a more appropriate line of work for him.
In a bacon, egg and cheese sandwich the chicken and cow are involved while the pig is committed.

Re: Philando Castile

72
AndyH wrote:I see the "police are always right" folks and the "the jury is always right" folks are here. It also appears that the facts of the actual event are taking 2nd place to the sport of debating the versions of reality as painted by the prosecution and defense in the courtroom. Let's not go down that path - this isn't about the jury.

Recall that the officer racially profiled Castile (the width of his nose), lied about the reason for the stop (a 'broken' taillight), ordered a driver with both hands on the steering wheel to produce his driver license, and then shot the driver when he thought he was going for the gun in his pocket rather than the wallet in a pocket about six inches away.

Think about that, concealed carriers, and put yourself in the position of the driver. Then hope the scared junior officer that pulls you over doesn't kill your kid when your wallet makes him 'fear for his life.'
Of course it's about the jury. The rest of us get our info from the media-condemned here often for their inability to get facts straight. The jury got the facts. Multiple views of the facts, argued and explained by skilled lawyers. They reviewed facts, discussed facts, and arrived at a decision-a unanimous decision under MN law.. The rest of us got the media and our own perceptions. Grass can screw up behavior and even offering to show the nice officer your carry piece to show him how pretty it is is going to be seen as a threat. I am sure Castilo was a nice guy, but he was impaired and carrying a gun, which is illegal. The jury decided that the cop was justified, and their opinion is the one that counts. The jury got the facts and made a decision. Those who disagree with the decision are placing the facts in second place over their own beliefs.

Our system says we use the jury system, or a professional judge. We try to not decide by volume but by fact. But volume is becoming more and more influential and facts not so much. The mob will decide. Nice thought. I may need to get a better rifle, as we get closer to anarchy.
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.
- Ronald Reagan

Re: Philando Castile

73
dougb wrote:
AndyH wrote:I see the "police are always right" folks and the "the jury is always right" folks are here. It also appears that the facts of the actual event are taking 2nd place to the sport of debating the versions of reality as painted by the prosecution and defense in the courtroom. Let's not go down that path - this isn't about the jury.

Recall that the officer racially profiled Castile (the width of his nose), lied about the reason for the stop (a 'broken' taillight), ordered a driver with both hands on the steering wheel to produce his driver license, and then shot the driver when he thought he was going for the gun in his pocket rather than the wallet in a pocket about six inches away.

Think about that, concealed carriers, and put yourself in the position of the driver. Then hope the scared junior officer that pulls you over doesn't kill your kid when your wallet makes him 'fear for his life.'
Of course it's about the jury. The rest of us get our info from the media-condemned here often for their inability to get facts straight. The jury got the facts. Multiple views of the facts, argued and explained by skilled lawyers. They reviewed facts, discussed facts, and arrived at a decision-a unanimous decision under MN law.. The rest of us got the media and our own perceptions. Grass can screw up behavior and even offering to show the nice officer your carry piece to show him how pretty it is is going to be seen as a threat. I am sure Castilo was a nice guy, but he was impaired and carrying a gun, which is illegal. The jury decided that the cop was justified, and their opinion is the one that counts. The jury got the facts and made a decision. Those who disagree with the decision are placing the facts in second place over their own beliefs.

Our system says we use the jury system, or a professional judge. We try to not decide by volume but by fact. But volume is becoming more and more influential and facts not so much. The mob will decide. Nice thought. I may need to get a better rifle, as we get closer to anarchy.
Ah, yes the system is fair -- no systemic racism or prejudice. So even though we have video of the officer not drawing his own weapon, retreating to the cover of his vehicle, and calling for backup as a sensible person would have done. Instead he shoots Mr. Castile multiple times while he is sitting next to a wholly innocent person who could very easily have been shot. It doesn't take an expert in police tactics to say that what the officer did was totally fucked up. But you want to believe the jury had some "secret" information that we peons are not privy too. Bullshit. Those who agree with the verdict are placing their belief over the evidence of their own eyes and ears.
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Re: Philando Castile

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I am not a lawyer, but I have read enough to know that the details privy only to the jury matters.

One of the most famous cases of them all was Trayvon Martin. While there's no doubt in my mind that Zimmerman is a douche nozzle, the fact was that Trayvon attacked him until he got bloodied in the back of the head. While it was entirely possible that George provoked T first, it was equally plausible that T attacked G over innocuous words. The Jury must decide based solely on the facts presented.

Based strictly on the facts available to me, I can't say with any certainty whether or not the shooting was justified. I have no access to camera footage showing exactly what happened leading to the shooting, so I have to rely on the jury to figure it out for me.

On another thread I complained about so many stupid concealed carriers, so I can't turn around and say here that Castile definitely couldn't possibly do anything unwise. If course he didn't deserve to be killed just for being stupid, but neither did the cop.

My firm opinion is that I simply don't know enough to make a fair judgment, so I gotta let the jury decide.

I'm fully aware that the legal system is not perfect, but it is still much better than the alternative (jungle law).
Glad that federal government is boring again.

Re: Philando Castile

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Gerry Martin isn't sure he will ever tell a police officer during a traffic stop that he has a concealed-weapon permit — and possibly a weapon — on him. The acquittal of a Minnesota officer in the death of a licensed gun owner who volunteered that he had a gun seconds before being fatally shot during a traffic stop adds to the worries of African-American gun owners about how they are treated by police and society. Acknowledging that they have a weapon, they said, can open them up to violence from police, who can then claim they feared for their lives simply because of the presence of a gun, even a legal one. "As soon as you say, 'I'm a concealed carry holder. This is my license,' they automatically are reaching for their gun thinking you're going to draw your gun on them, once again not realizing you're a good guy," said Martin, who lives in Glenside, Pennsylvania.

Philando Castile was fatally shot by the officer July 6 in a St. Paul suburb seconds after he told the officer he was armed. Officer Jeronimo Yanez, who is Latino, was acquitted Friday of manslaughter and two lesser charges. During the stop, Castile volunteered, "Sir, I have to tell you, I do have a firearm on me." Yanez told Castile, "OK, don't reach for it then" and "Don't pull it out." On the squad-car video, Castile can be heard saying, "I'm not pulling it out," as Yanez opened fire. Prosecutors said Castile's last words were, "I wasn't reaching for it." The verdict "tells African-Americans across the country that they can be killed by police officers with impunity, even when they are following the law," said Rep. Cedric Richmond, a Louisiana Democrat who is chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus.

The verdict also tells blacks that "the Second Amendment does not apply to them" because Castile "was honest with the officer about having a weapon in the car, and there is no evidence that he attempted to or intended to use the weapon against the officer," the Louisiana Democrat said. Outside the courthouse, Castile's mother said Yanez got away with murder. Her son was wearing a seatbelt and in a car with his girlfriend and her then-4-year-old daughter when he was shot. "I am so very, very, very ... disappointed in the system here in the state of Minnesota," Valerie Castile said.

Licensed gun owner and open-carry advocate Rick Ector of Detroit said stereotypes can cloud the minds of some officers when dealing with black gun owners. Officers may have had previous encounters with people carrying guns illegally — especially young black men. And that experience can carry over, Ector said. Once they find out that a black American has a gun permit, "they are not necessarily going to relax, but they now have an idea about your character," Ector said. Phillip Smith, head of the National African American Gun Association, said police need additional training to remind them that Second Amendment rights apply to black gun owners as much as anyone else.

Like several similar cases, Castile's death was shared worldwide on social media. His girlfriend, Diamond Reynolds, livestreamed the aftermath of the shooting on Facebook because, she said, she wanted to make sure the truth was known. But videos of black people dying at the hands of police have led to few convictions. "I'm sure people of color are going to say, and rightfully so, what is the burden of proof for an officer to be" convicted? asked Dwayne Crawford, the executive director of the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives.

Eric Garner died in July 2014 in New York City after a white officer placed him in a chokehold during an arrest for selling loose cigarettes. Garner complained that he couldn't breathe on video captured by onlookers. A grand jury declined to indict that officer or any others involved in the arrest. Tamir Rice, a 12-year-old boy with a pellet gun tucked into his waistband, was fatally shot by a white Cleveland police officer in November 2014. But a grand jury declined to indict patrolman Timothy Loehmann, who fired the fatal shot, or training officer Frank Garmback. The city settled Rice's family's lawsuit for $6 million. Michael Brown, an unarmed 18-year-old, was fatally shot by a white officer, Darren Wilson, in August 2014 in Ferguson, Missouri. Their confrontation was not captured on video. A grand jury declined to indict Wilson, and the Justice Department opted against civil rights charges. Wilson later resigned.

Only one police officer in recent publicized cases is facing jail time. South Carolina officer Michael Slager, who is white, shot black motorist Walter Scott in the back as he fled from a traffic stop. Slager pleaded guilty in May to a federal charge of violating Scott's civil rights, and a judge will determine his sentence, which could range from probation to life in prison without parole. Scott's shooting in April 2015 was captured on cellphone video seen worldwide. It contradicted Slager's original statement that Scott had attempted to grab his Taser. "This was a clear-cut case of unnecessary, fatal police violence," Rashad Robinson, executive director of Color Of Change, said of the Castile case. "District attorneys around the country, from Tulsa to Cleveland to now St. Paul, must be held accountable for their failures to secure justice for victims of police violence."
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nati ... story.html
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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