Cop kills civilian during training exercise in Florida

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http://wsvn.com/news/local/woman-killed ... nta-gorda/

Saw this on the news this morning... don't wish to rush to judgement, but it seems reckless to use real guns in a training exercise for civilians.

I can understand the military and police using real guns in a training scenario, but for regular folks?

How can pointing a real gun at a real person during a training exercise for civilians be justified?

Re: Cop kills civilian during training exercise in Florida

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PeterBlack wrote:How can pointing a real gun at a real person during a training exercise for civilians be justified?
It can't be. Somebody fucked up big-time.
DispositionMatrix wrote:Cops are civilians.
Argue with the editor.
"There never was a union of church and state which did not bring serious evils to religion."
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Re: Cop kills civilian during training exercise in Florida

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lurker wrote:the story is apparently being scrubbed as time passes. i seem to recall reading that they were supposed to be using blanks, the victim was 78 years old, and she was shot at least twice.
Show me a reporter that knows a blank from a training round. I don't doubt they exist, but they're a damned uncommon species.
"There never was a union of church and state which did not bring serious evils to religion."
The Right Reverend John England, first Roman Catholic Bishop of Charleston SC, 1825.

Re: Cop kills civilian during training exercise in Florida

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Noon news said" That it was an unfortunate accident that live rounds were in the gun." I want to know is it normal in police training scenarios with non LEOs to use real guns? I would assume (I know what that gets you) you could use something like a starter pistol or even and airdoft gun shooting foam pellets. You would still require things like safety goggles and maybe a vest for protection. In my CHL class anytime, not on the range, a demonstration using a gun was needed, they used one of the blue plastic shapes for the demo.

This was a total FUBAR. Somebody needs to be held accountable and maybe charge with involuntary manslaughter.
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Re: Cop kills civilian during training exercise in Florida

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TrueTexan wrote:I want to know is it normal in police training scenarios with non LEOs to use real guns? I would assume (I know what that gets you) you could use something like a starter pistol or even and airdoft gun shooting foam pellets. You would still require things like safety goggles and maybe a vest for protection. In my CHL class anytime, not on the range, a demonstration using a gun was needed, they used one of the blue plastic shapes for the demo.
I suspect they were using a paint-ball type system - plastic shell (ten years ago) with a paint-filled projectile and charged with a primer like the Simunition system. We wore face protection & vests and used designated training pistols with duty weapons checked as we entered the training area. I don't know what the f**k these people were doing.
TrueTexan wrote:This was a total FUBAR. Somebody needs to be held accountable and maybe charge with involuntary manslaughter.
I cannot disagree.
"There never was a union of church and state which did not bring serious evils to religion."
The Right Reverend John England, first Roman Catholic Bishop of Charleston SC, 1825.

Re: Cop kills civilian during training exercise in Florida

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"A 73-year-old retired librarian playacting as a victim in a "shoot/don't shoot" exercise at a Florida police community event was shot and killed Tuesday night by an officer who mistakenly fired live ammunition instead of blank rounds, according to Punta Gorda, Fla., police.

Mary Knowlton was shot several times by Punta Gorda police officer Lee Coel playing a "bad guy" in the scenario designed to demonstrate the quick decisions police must make on the job, said Sue Paquin, a photographer covering the event for the Charlotte Sun."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016 ... /88507280/

Why they thought they needed to actually fire the weapon I don't understand though. Just using a cell phone vs. a mock pistol would seem to be sufficient to make the point. Just wanted to make it extra scary?
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Re: Cop kills civilian during training exercise in Florida

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IMO, the officer who killed her is responsible. He had control of the weapon, he should have checked it to be sure he knew the load. Heck, I do it every time I pick up a weapon, even when I just watched someone else do it. I check for myself, because if I'm controlling it I'm responsible for it.

As far as telling the difference between service ammo and blank ammo, it's obvious to anyone who has used blanks. All it would have taken was a quick check, a check that was skipped with tragic results.

But ultimately, this ignored Cooper's first rule. There's a reason for it to be first.
"In every generation there are those who want to rule well - but they mean to rule. They promise to be good masters - but they mean to be masters." — Daniel Webster

Re: Cop kills civilian during training exercise in Florida

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http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/ ... onstration

above link is to the NPR version.

"mistakenly used live ammunition" WTF!? how is a live round mistaken for anything else?
the family of the dead woman should end up owning the police dept. and perhaps the whole town. "any and all assets are now the property of the family, court dismissed".

this has to be the stupidest gun negligence story I've ever read.

Re: Cop kills civilian during training exercise in Florida

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lurker wrote:this was no accident, this was negligence.

i once helped a theater production use my 1911 in a play. i removed the firing pin, and at no time was the pin, ammo or magazines present in the building. i checked it every night before the play, showed the actor how to check it himself, and insisted that he do so.
thank you.. the shooter was totally responsible for the status and condition of his weapon .always is always will be no excuses no alibis .. responsible for knowing the scenario, responsible for his actions .. only way it could be .. and where the hell was the safety officer, any responsible operation will not even let somebody clear their own weapon without a double check much less engage an actual human target without a safety check.. not that anybody I have ever worked with and known would use an actual human target for training with a weapon even capable of firing live ammo... and I have spent in aggregate literally months using Miles gear, once for two weeks straight 24/7 slept in harness subject to attack and tried to hit the blue force the same way.. total burned out high to the point of hallucination.. but weapons safety was constant check and double check by umpires that got to sleep and eat ( and boy at the end of two weeks we hated them and their fresh smiling rested faces.. probably an incentive for them to make sure about our weapons :mrgreen: ) besides the 4 rules a weapon is always loaded never point at anything you don't want to destroy ... you want to play paintball you use paintball markers train you use training weapons

You biggest badassest military operators double check each other and then run a cleaning rod down the barrel when they exit the range... it is a mark of professionalism and it is never ever done as a drill.. it is always a conscious and deliberate act to know and double check a weapons status both before and after you shoot ..

don't get me wrong..there is a definite organizational problem aside from using local civilians as targets to improve community relations .. but there is no escaping individual responsibility.

Re: Cop kills civilian during training exercise in Florida

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The police chief of Punta Gorda was also charged.
PUNTA GORDA, Fla. A motion to dismiss Police Chief Tom Lewis’ charges in the fatal shooting of a 73-year-old by a former police officer was denied by a judge on Monday.

20th Circuit Court Judge Devin George described the motion as “moot,” according to court documents.

Lewis is charged with culpable negligence for failing to implement sufficient safety protocols during an August 2016 “shoot, don’t shoot” exercise at a citizens police academy class, prosecutors said.

Lewis’ attorney, Stephen Romine, argued last week that prosecutors have not provided any evidence to support their claim and that he can’t prepare a defense if “I don’t know what I’m defending.”

Prosecutors on Monday filed a document detailing their charge against Lewis, claiming he:

Allowed the use of a firearm capable of using live ammunition or ammunition blanks during a community presentation.
Allowed an officer to discharge the firearm towards, near, in the direction of or in the vicinity of citizens.
Allowed the use of a firearm that was not stored, issued or inventoried in the police department armory.
Failing to have a written policy for “shoot, don’t shoot” scenarios.
Failing to have a safety officer or supervisor to ensure all used weapons were free of live ammunition.
Failing to provide protective gear to citizens.
Failing to have a first-aid kit on site.
Former Punta Gorda police officer Lee Coel shot and killed Mary Knowlton during the demonstration at the police department in August 2016.

Coel, who has appealed his termination, is charged with manslaughter in Knowlton’s death.
http://www.winknews.com/2017/05/09/moti ... -shooting/
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