Re: Wellness Check Failed

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Inquisitor wrote:Maybe, instead of blame/defense, we can spend time talking about what can be done. Presumably its not a foregone conclusion?

I was excoriated for suggesting more training, so I guess its perfect, and we can't do a thing to mitigate the risk of this happening in the future, right?
This keeps gnawing at me. I don't know when the police became the assumed one-stop-shop for times that go sideways. I'm really wondering if the way (all/most/many?) of us expect them to appear is some sort of evolution or mission creep. As we've noted elsewhere, policing has changed tone and more types of situations seem to be ending badly. Maybe we need to dump 911 and have a couple of ambulance phone numbers on the 'fridge? I guess I'm really wondering if we are using the wrong tool for too many jobs. No answers...sorry.

Re: Wellness Check Failed

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It's never wrong for cops to shoot and it's never a bad idea to call the cops, therefore all problems can be solved by shooting someone. I don't need a cop for that. I laugh those guys off the range. Fire the fuckers and spend my tax money on food clothes and shelter for people who need it, like all those cops we fire.
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Re: Wellness Check Failed

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eelj wrote:Based on ethnic back grounds, Native Americans get shot by American police in far greater numbers than any other.

They have far greater problems facing them in this country than the name of Washingtons football team. In fact they have been polled on that subject and I believe the number was 86% could care less about team names.
Probably due to poverty.

Re: Wellness Check Failed

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Marlene wrote:It's never wrong for cops to shoot and it's never a bad idea to call the cops, therefore all problems can be solved by shooting someone. I don't need a cop for that. I laugh those guys off the range. Fire the fuckers and spend my tax money on food clothes and shelter for people who need it, like all those cops we fire.
You appear to be reading more into this than what was said. Ranting about it doesn't help What is your solution to a suicidal mother armed with a gun with children running around. You have very little time to solve this, because she will start shooting the kids. Then it's on you. But you weren't there and didn't have to do anything. Nobody called you for help. They called the cops, who saved the children.
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.
- Ronald Reagan

Re: Wellness Check Failed

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dougb wrote:
Marlene wrote:It's never wrong for cops to shoot and it's never a bad idea to call the cops, therefore all problems can be solved by shooting someone. I don't need a cop for that. I laugh those guys off the range. Fire the fuckers and spend my tax money on food clothes and shelter for people who need it, like all those cops we fire.
You appear to be reading more into this than what was said. Ranting about it doesn't help What is your solution to a suicidal mother armed with a gun with children running around. You have very little time to solve this, because she will start shooting the kids. Then it's on you. But you weren't there and didn't have to do anything. Nobody called you for help. They called the cops, who saved the children.
Nice strawperson. Nobody was going to shoot any kids. Considering the situation, it was highly unlikely the woman would have injured herself, either. Recall all the posts on this forum from LEOs that didn't fire their weapons after 40 year careers? That, sir, is an indication that the sky really isn't falling, and that it's probably not accurate to justify poor judgment with a hypothetical more than 4 orders of magnitude off the mark.

Re: Wellness Check Failed

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AndyH wrote:
dougb wrote:
Marlene wrote:It's never wrong for cops to shoot and it's never a bad idea to call the cops, therefore all problems can be solved by shooting someone. I don't need a cop for that. I laugh those guys off the range. Fire the fuckers and spend my tax money on food clothes and shelter for people who need it, like all those cops we fire.
You appear to be reading more into this than what was said. Ranting about it doesn't help What is your solution to a suicidal mother armed with a gun with children running around. You have very little time to solve this, because she will start shooting the kids. Then it's on you. But you weren't there and didn't have to do anything. Nobody called you for help. They called the cops, who saved the children.
Nice strawperson. Nobody was going to shoot any kids. Considering the situation, it was highly unlikely the woman would have injured herself, either. Recall all the posts on this forum from LEOs that didn't fire their weapons after 40 year careers? That, sir, is an indication that the sky really isn't falling, and that it's probably not accurate to justify poor judgment with a hypothetical more than 4 orders of magnitude off the mark.
And if you are wrong? Your assumption that she was unlikely to do anything is based on wishful thinking. You might be right, I might be wrong, but neither of us had to make this decision. Neither of us were going to be responsible for the welfare of the children, and neither of us was facing an unstable suicidal woman with a gun. The people charged with making the decision, the ones responsible for any outcome, decided based on their training and experience that they had to shoot. We were not asked for our opinion. Probably not enough time to make calls. I doubt either of us are qualified to make a decision about this event that says more than we think the cops were right or we think the cops were wrong after carefully pointing out that were were not present and don't actually know what happened. My preference is to give the cops the benefit of the doubt. I watched a kid die a long time ago and have no desire to witness that again.

Great headline though: Children die as cops hesitate!
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.
- Ronald Reagan

Re: Wellness Check Failed

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I've said it before and I'll say it again: if you've got a situation with a mentally disturbed person (armed or not) sending in the cops should be a last resort, not a first resort. I can't blame the cops in this case because they responded exactly as they were trained, and it was probably the only way they really knew how to respond, but that just shows that they were the wrong people to send in the first place. They made the best decision they could, and I have no doubt that they are as disturbed by the outcome as anyone.


But there are better ways to respond. While yes there are murder-suicides and that is something to consider, one thing that murder-suicides almost always have in common is that the killer doesn't call a relative demanding attention first - they just act and the first responders get to deal with the dead. Reaching out to someone like that is a sign that the suicidal person wants attention, wants someone to talk to, and can probably be talked down. An armed response is only likely to drive that person to take rash action and lead to tragedy.
106+ recreational uses of firearms
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