Lewiston, Maine police chief unhappy with constitutional carry

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Chief: Change in gun law has ‘unintended consequence’
LEWISTON — The city’s police chief said Monday a change in state law three years ago allowing concealed gun carry without a permit has triggered a spike in reports of gun-related crimes.
I would like to see some real data on this, including who the perps are.
Some people have turned in AK-47s to police because they had the guns and did not think they should.
1. Nope. 2. What?
“This is an issue where guns are now what used to be just a traffic accident and maybe some road rage and yelling, we’ve had people waving guns around at people,” O’Malley said. “We’re seeing this huge influx of guns being involved, when in years past there were some steps that we could take prior to it becoming shootouts that we’re having here in Lewiston.”
Generally, police respond _after_ shootouts.

I'm sure the people "waving guns around at people" were sure to obey carry laws prior to 2015.

Re: Lewiston, Maine police chief unhappy with constitutional carry

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DispositionMatrix wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:21 pm
Bardo wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:15 pm 1000% in favor of ccw license
Traditionally, they have been good for ensuring minorities are not legally armed.
Do you have evidence to back that up? I'm not saying it isn't true, but I've never heard of any instances of racial discrimination in issuing carry licenses. Here in Texas, for example, it would be damned hard to do that, even, because Texas is a "shall issue" state: as long as you don't meet one of the disqualifications written into the law, then the permit must be issued - the state has no discretion in the matter.

Now maybe in places that are "may issue" like New York and California there could be some discrimination going on, but all I've ever heard about is discrimination against people who aren't either rich or politically connected.
106+ recreational uses of firearms
1 defensive use
0 people injured
0 people killed

Re: Lewiston, Maine police chief unhappy with constitutional carry

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In states like North Carolina if you don’t have a CCW and you want to buy a handgun you will have to go to the local sheriff and apply for a handgun permit to buy one. It is up to the sheriff if you get one. CCW license is also under the approval by the local sheriff.

Eris we are blessed in Texas that it is all handled by DPS and is very cut ad dry with no local interference by the lord high sheriff.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: Lewiston, Maine police chief unhappy with constitutional carry

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Eris wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:27 pm
DispositionMatrix wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:21 pm
Bardo wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:15 pm 1000% in favor of ccw license
Traditionally, they have been good for ensuring minorities are not legally armed.
Do you have evidence to back that up? I'm not saying it isn't true, but I've never heard of any instances of racial discrimination in issuing carry licenses. Here in Texas, for example, it would be damned hard to do that, even, because Texas is a "shall issue" state: as long as you don't meet one of the disqualifications written into the law, then the permit must be issued - the state has no discretion in the matter.
Racism isn't what it used to be with regard to concealed carry licensing, and Texas has a state-run licensing system far different from restrictive-state fiefdoms in which chiefs of police or sheriffs arbitrarily can deny the ability to carry legally. _That_ system was born from the idea of making sure the correct people were armed.

There is a paragraph alluding to the origin of modern licensing schemes here https://www.ebony.com/news-views/gun-ri ... ack-people, something I assumed was pretty well-understood.
According to Andrew Rothman, President of the Minnesota Gun Owners Rights Alliance, “The NRA is a huge lumbering beast and is often slow-moving.” Despite its questionable history on race—in the 1920s the organization helped draft and promote restrictive gun laws that said only persons who are “suitable” with a “proper reason” were eligible for a gun license (read: white)– Rothman says the organization is “working to dispel the notion that they are all about Bubba, meaning white-only.”
Martin Luther King was denied a concealed carry license in may-issue Alabama in 1956. Can't imagine why. (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/adam-win ... 10132.html)

Dave Kopel noted some of the Jim Crow/post-Jim Crow restrictions on carry by people who might happen to be black within this piece: Jim Crow and the Racist Roots of Gun Control. It's worth the read just to see what the white ruling class was willing to do to keep blacks from carrying. It covers Tennessee, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Georgia, Florida, New York and includes some nice summarizing by a judge or two at the time.

Historical info on the racist origins of gun prohibition in general:
The Racist Roots of Gun Control
A little more from Cramer. Researcher: Ohio's concealed carry ban founded in racism
The racist origin of gun control laws
The Racist Origins of US Gun Control
Do Black People Have Equal Gun Rights?

Anyway, it sounds as if you're talking about licensing as you see it in Texas now, whereas I was referring to the purpose for which a licensing scheme still in use elsewhere was devised.

Re: Lewiston, Maine police chief unhappy with constitutional carry

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Bardo wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:33 pm Im aware of the history, that doesn't discount the good idea it is to train/verify training people who carry most or all the time in and of itself.

What cognitive dissonance it is to have a political point about this though. A national aneurysm in the making.
OK. I live in Los Angeles. CCW license means you don't get one. So I am against the blanket statement of being for CCW licenses because basically nobody qualifies for one here.

Re: Lewiston, Maine police chief unhappy with constitutional carry

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DispositionMatrix wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:36 pm Racism isn't what it used to be with regard to concealed carry licensing, and Texas has a state-run licensing system far different from restrictive-state fiefdoms in which chiefs of police or sheriffs arbitrarily can deny the ability to carry legally. _That_ system was born from the idea of making sure the correct people were armed.

There is a paragraph alluding to the origin of modern licensing schemes here https://www.ebony.com/news-views/gun-ri ... ack-people, something I assumed was pretty well-understood.
According to Andrew Rothman, President of the Minnesota Gun Owners Rights Alliance, “The NRA is a huge lumbering beast and is often slow-moving.” Despite its questionable history on race—in the 1920s the organization helped draft and promote restrictive gun laws that said only persons who are “suitable” with a “proper reason” were eligible for a gun license (read: white)– Rothman says the organization is “working to dispel the notion that they are all about Bubba, meaning white-only.”
Martin Luther King was denied a concealed carry license in may-issue Alabama in 1956. Can't imagine why. (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/adam-win ... 10132.html)

Dave Kopel noted some of the Jim Crow/post-Jim Crow restrictions on carry by people who might happen to be black within this piece: Jim Crow and the Racist Roots of Gun Control. It's worth the read just to see what the white ruling class was willing to do to keep blacks from carrying. It covers Tennessee, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Georgia, Florida, New York and includes some nice summarizing by a judge or two at the time.

Historical info on the racist origins of gun prohibition in general:
The Racist Roots of Gun Control
A little more from Cramer. Researcher: Ohio's concealed carry ban founded in racism
The racist origin of gun control laws
The Racist Origins of US Gun Control
Do Black People Have Equal Gun Rights?

Anyway, it sounds as if you're talking about licensing as you see it in Texas now, whereas I was referring to the purpose for which a licensing scheme still in use elsewhere was devised.
I'm aware of the historical attempts to disarm black people, and I know that even today it is more dangerous for black people to legally carry than for white people, but what I'm wondering is if there is any evidence of ongoing, current discrimination in the issuance of licenses? I can certainly see it being the case in some places, but it always help to be able to cite actual cases.

I'll check out the links you provided, though, because lately I've been reading more about the history of guns in America.
106+ recreational uses of firearms
1 defensive use
0 people injured
0 people killed

Re: Lewiston, Maine police chief unhappy with constitutional carry

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Bardo said:
1000% in favor of ccw license
I am both 1000% pro licensing, testing and certification, and also 1000% pro "shall issue". States like CA, where the police basically refuse to issue are a real problem. Where I live in Nevada, you do need to get trained and certified, and you do get a thorough background check, but it is "shall issue". Most people get a permit.

I am aware of the position of many rational people here that the costs of this required training create a cost barrier for low income people. I would far rather that we have a fund to get lower income people trained than they simply be self-trained or amateur trained. I feel that one of the most important checks in the NV system is that the certified instructor must sign off on your getting a permit.

IMO, the 'reason' I should give for wanting a CCW permit is: "I am a US Citizen, 21 years or older, of sound mind, with no mental problems and no legal barriers to CCW, and I took all the tests and training and passed." No other justification is needed.
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Re: Lewiston, Maine police chief unhappy with constitutional carry

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There is a former Sheriff from NC on the extended staycation at Hotel Fed. for being corrupt and for violation of civil liberties including refusal to issue a CCW to anybody who is not native to the county for 3 generation, or who is non white and bringing a letter of recommendation written by the priest in your church stating that you attend church regularly was one of the requirements, also nobody who is US Marine could get CCW not even highly decorated colonel.

Vermont has Constitutional Carry for a long time and no rivers of blood no gunfights in the streets.
O’Malley added, “I see that as the biggest reason we’re having gun violence.”

Although gun violence has largely been aimed at drug dealers, O’Malley said he fears for the innocent bystanders who might get caught in the crossfire.

Re: Lewiston, Maine police chief unhappy with constitutional carry

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max129 wrote: Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:55 pm

IMO, the 'reason' I should give for wanting a CCW permit is: "I am a US Citizen, 21 years or older, of sound mind, with no mental problems and no legal barriers to CCW, and I took all the tests and training and passed." No other justification is needed.
US citizenship is not one of the requirements for gun ownership, any legal immigrant can purchase a gun legally, any person on the territory and subject to the USA law has same protections like a citizen and that applies on the gun ownership.
While it is almost impossible to obtain CCW in the NYC, Robert DeNiro nor President Trump had any problems obtaining it and having a privilege to legally carry a gun in the NYC.

Re: Lewiston, Maine police chief unhappy with constitutional carry

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US citizenship is not one of the requirements for gun ownership
I agree WRT firearm ownership. I was specifically giving my opinion for CCW. I am sure many others would not put Citizenship in their CCW list.

One observation that law enforcement makes is that non-citizens who arrive from another Country may not be able to be researched for criminal history as well as people who have lived here their entire life. I personally have no strong opinions either way.
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Re: Lewiston, Maine police chief unhappy with constitutional carry

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max129 wrote: Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:07 pm
US citizenship is not one of the requirements for gun ownership
I agree WRT firearm ownership. I was specifically giving my opinion for CCW. I am sure many others would not put Citizenship in their CCW list.

One observation that law enforcement makes is that non-citizens who arrive from another Country may not be able to be researched for criminal history as well as people who have lived here their entire life. I personally have no strong opinions either way.
I would not support a citizenship requirement for concealed carry. It also should have nothing to do with being able to buy arms either which under federal law it does not.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Lewiston, Maine police chief unhappy with constitutional carry

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sikacz said:

I would not support a citizenship requirement for concealed carry. It also should have nothing to do with being able to buy arms either which under federal law it does not.
I actually agree with this from a legal and ideologic point of view.

As I have said previously, I am a disgusting pragmatist. I spend more than 20 years working on IEEE, ACM and ISO standards (part time mind you). One thing laws and technical standards must consider is 'implementation'. So you made a rule - can it be followed?

I live in Las Vegas about 1/3 of the time. People may have their own thoughts about Vegas, but I live here enough that I respect the way this town is run. I have a local CCW and the training is good enough, the police background check system is good, and I do think the very presence of such a system keeps dodgy characters from have a CCW. Dodgy characters of course, can carry illegally, and I am sure some do.

I don't disagree with your position, but (flame suit on), I do know a few people who should not own firearms. I like a system with some training, some certification and background checks. I am well aware that 'them are fightin words' to many folks and I am not trying to pick a fight here - just expressing what I think is a well reasoned point of view.

The comments about the costs of such a system are new to me. I don't mean to be an idiot, but I can afford my firearm habits and the costs. I never, until the past year reading on this site, considered that the certifications and background checks (which do cost money) were a barrier. After reading the POVs here on the forum, I completely agree that the cost must be driven as close as possible to zero. Why? Because we cannot create an economic class that lacks full 2A rights. Like I said, new ideas to me, but 100% sound and correct.

Nevada CCW requirements:
http://ccw-lasvegas.com/ccw-requirements.html

There is no citizenship requirement; there is a SSN requirement. And I have been told anecdotally that some people cannot get a CCW because the police chief in their originating country would not sign off on the affidavit - many Countries lack an actual criminal database and the only recourse is for LE here to contact their home town. All this is the messy part of implementation. If I put on my 20-year-old-self Libertarian hat, I would say these are examples of why Government needs to get out of the way. But, as I said, I do know people who should not own firearms, and so do most people.

But unlike some States, Nevada is a pure 'shall issue' State. The police cannot deny a CCW permit without just cause, which must be documented and is subject to due process.
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Re: Lewiston, Maine police chief unhappy with constitutional carry

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Every Law Enforcement Agency has access to NCIC and if for some reason your computer does not work there is always an old way call State Police Dispatch. Centar they can give you wants and warrants in time it takes to type info into the computer and generally speaking you need 40 or so words typing speed to get a dispatcher job.
As we have innocent until proven guilty and convictions are reported or at least should be reported to NCIC. It is just a way to deprive "less desirable" people of their rights.

As far as foreign citizens, those who are given a status of immigrant into the USA, were granted such status after background was completed in their land of origin, a second time is performed before US Citizenship is granted. As having a criminal conviction can be a basis for refusal of entry into the USA.

Undocumented Aliens and tourists are non-immigrants and as such not eligible for gun ownership ( there is an exemption for a tourist who came into the USA on a hunting trip, sponsoring agency /hunting guide company can provide a gun to such tourist during the hunt.)

Every legal immigrant is issued SSN within first 2 weeks and anybody under age 26 must sign with Selective Services.

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