Accidental shooting at TX gun range

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A 28-year-old man was transported to the hospital in critical condition after he was accidentally shot by a coworker at the Mission Ridge Range & Academy, a gun range in San Antonio, on Tuesday.

David Lopez and another employee were discussing tactics behind the counter at the gun range when the employee pulled a loaded firearm out of a holster and shot him, according to KABB. The bullet hit the Lopez in the upper body and several employees, including the shooter, attempted to administer first aid to the injured man until help arrived. An ambulance was called to the scene and Lopez was transported to University Hospital, located about 10 miles away, where he was declared to be in critical condition, according to KHOU.

The range was closed on Wednesday due to the shooting, which the company identified as an “accidental discharge” in a statement posted on Facebook. Mission Ridge Range & Academy added that fortunately, the employee was expected to recover and KENS reported he was updated to good condition on Wednesday afternoon. “The first responders and our medically trained staff did an outstanding job responding,” the gun range’s statement said. “We appreciate all the thoughts and prayers.”

The 30,000 square foot facility includes pistol, rifle, and archery ranges, a virtual training simulator, and San Antonio’s only 100-yard indoor shooting lane, according to its website. Along with practicing shooting alone, Mission Ridge Range & Academy also offers various types of training including introductory lessons, concealed carry courses and private instruction. Newsweek reached out to Mission Ridge Range & Academy but did not receive a response in time for publication.

On July 4, Dr. Chester Falterman was shot and killed at the OK Corral Shooting Range in Woodbury, Tennessee. District Attorney General Jennings H. Jones told the Murfreesboro Post that an investigation was being conducted into whether the death by gunshot was accidental, self-inflicted or criminal. The San Antonio Police Department has not revealed the type of firearm that was used in Tuesday's shooting. The shooter was taken to Public Safety Headquarters and gave a statement to police. No charges were filed against the shooter and, given that it appeared to have been an accident, police told KABB that they don’t anticipate any charges being filed in the future.
https://www.newsweek.com/san-antonio-gu ... ge-1043992
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Accidental shooting at TX gun range

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If I had a dollar for every time I heard a cringe-worthy comment or suggestion from RSO, I'd have enough money to buy my own range.

The kids (I say kids, but I mean the RSOs who look like they just started shaving last week) are generally the worst. I've heard the older RSOs read them the riot act for everything from, "You have to pay attention, you need to watch people as they change magazines, to Will you please stop talking about your next AR build for five minutes."

...this does make me wonder if the victim was 28, how old was the guy with ND? :hmmm:
LGC Texas - Vice President

Re: Accidental shooting at TX gun range

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I recently got my concealed carry license -- not carrying yet though -- feel I need a whole lot more holster training. Anyway, I've heard firearms lawyers talk about the most common problem they deal with are NDs. I'm conscientious and careful to the extent I realize I could be negligent, and so I want to create as many layers between myself and a negligent discharge as possible, which means when I do carry I'm going to look at something with a decocking safety. I get that it puts me a tactical disadvantage, but it also gives me a couple layers between getting into an embarrassing or worse, unintentionally deadly, situation. Being able to thumb the back of the hammer when holstering, the external safety (which I've been training around), and having a double action pull on the first shot feels prudent to me. I just wish I had more choices than the Walther PPK and its clones or Beretta PX4 Storm.

Of course we can all say this guy should have kept his finger off the trigger, and I agree, but he didn't. Maybe he had insufficient practice. Maybe he just made a terrible error in the moment despite 1000s of rounds of practice. That's the thing about negligence -- it is by definition unintentional and even the most experienced can have their moments.

Re: Accidental shooting at TX gun range

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awshoot wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:39 am I recently got my concealed carry license -- not carrying yet though -- feel I need a whole lot more holster training. Anyway, I've heard firearms lawyers talk about the most common problem they deal with are NDs. I'm conscientious and careful to the extent I realize I could be negligent, and so I want to create as many layers between myself and a negligent discharge as possible, which means when I do carry I'm going to look at something with a decocking safety. I get that it puts me a tactical disadvantage, but it also gives me a couple layers between getting into an embarrassing or worse, unintentionally deadly, situation. Being able to thumb the back of the hammer when holstering, the external safety (which I've been training around), and having a double action pull on the first shot feels prudent to me. I just wish I had more choices than the Walther PPK and its clones or Beretta PX4 Storm.

Of course we can all say this guy should have kept his finger off the trigger, and I agree, but he didn't. Maybe he had insufficient practice. Maybe he just made a terrible error in the moment despite 1000s of rounds of practice. That's the thing about negligence -- it is by definition unintentional and even the most experienced can have their moments.
The best prevention of a ND is using the space between your ears and that includes training.

As for what to carry that is a whole other ballgame. I feel many times what the person wants to carry vs. what they really need are two different things. When I do carry It is normally my S&W 686 plus 3 inch or my Ruger Alaskan. Both are double action revolvers so I don't worry about magazines issues, having to rack a slide, no safety to fiddle with, etc. I can carry my Sig 227 DA/SA with the decocker. That is my preferences for carry YMMV on this.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: Accidental shooting at TX gun range

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David Lopez and another employee were discussing tactics behind the counter at the gun range when the employee pulled a loaded firearm out of a holster and shot him, according to KABB.
I think that pretty much says it all. Why would you pull a loaded gun out of a holster and point it at someone unless you were going to shoot them? Seriously, "discussing tactics" should be "jawing about bullshit youtube videos." Yahoos like the shooter think guns are toys.

Re: Accidental shooting at TX gun range

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TrueTexan wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:34 am The best prevention of a ND is using the space between your ears and that includes training.

As for what to carry that is a whole other ballgame. I feel many times what the person wants to carry vs. what they really need are two different things. When I do carry It is normally my S&W 686 plus 3 inch or my Ruger Alaskan. Both are double action revolvers so I don't worry about magazines issues, having to rack a slide, no safety to fiddle with, etc. I can carry my Sig 227 DA/SA with the decocker. That is my preferences for carry YMMV on this.
Brain: I agree. I also believe it isn't foolproof - at least not mine. For example, that dancing FBI agent would only have suffered a momentary embarrassment if he had an external safety rather than a life changing moment of negligence if there was something else between a brain fart and a ND besides a double action pull. For myself, I'm willing to forgo the safety factor of having less to fiddle with in the event a gun is necessary, for the safety factor of protecting against my own negligence.

Re: Accidental shooting at TX gun range

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Yet another knucklehead making our life harder.

Let's say you have a manual safety on your pistol. You train so you can deactivate the safety and shoot the gun as quickly as possible when you need to, and it becomes second nature. It doesn't matter how many manual safeties you have, when you have trained enough (as you should) to automatically defeat them.

What's important is to not break the safety rules. Don't point the gun at anything you're not going to shoot. Don't touch the trigger until you're ready to shoot. Make sure what's behind your target or safe area.
Glad that federal government is boring again.

Re: Accidental shooting at TX gun range

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awshoot wrote:
TrueTexan wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:34 am The best prevention of a ND is using the space between your ears and that includes training.

As for what to carry that is a whole other ballgame. I feel many times what the person wants to carry vs. what they really need are two different things. When I do carry It is normally my S&W 686 plus 3 inch or my Ruger Alaskan. Both are double action revolvers so I don't worry about magazines issues, having to rack a slide, no safety to fiddle with, etc. I can carry my Sig 227 DA/SA with the decocker. That is my preferences for carry YMMV on this.
Brain: I agree. I also believe it isn't foolproof - at least not mine. For example, that dancing FBI agent would only have suffered a momentary embarrassment if he had an external safety rather than a life changing moment of negligence if there was something else between a brain fart and a ND besides a double action pull. For myself, I'm willing to forgo the safety factor of having less to fiddle with in the event a gun is necessary, for the safety factor of protecting against my own negligence.
ND’s can happen with any type of weapon.
There’s a guy on YouTube that recreates ND’s from stories that people sent him and it’s revolvers, 1911’s, Striker fired, DA/SA’s.

Whatever one chooses to carry be it DA/SA, Striker no manual safety, Striker with manual safety, revolver know what you have to do to make the gun safe.

No matter which gun is chosen, normally it won’t fire unless the trigger is manipulated.
If you take a Glock with one in the chamber place it on a table for weeks it will not fire. No gun will fire.
If you pick the gun up trigger finger should be indexed along the frame or slide or above the trigger guard.

A gun with a manual safety should be handled the same. Finger off the trigger. Don’t be lulled into a false sense of security with a manual safety.

Don’t get me wrong there’s nothing wrong with a manual safety just practice or train as if there were no manual safety because there could be situation were we think the safety in on and it isn’t.

But if we practice or train to keep the trigger finger indexed and making sure there are no obstructions to the trigger when holstering and the trigger is not manipulated normally the gun won’t fire.

The dancing FBI Agent’s became negligent by first doing a back flip with a firearm especially a loaded firearm. Second by attempting to pick it up and not keeping his finger out of the trigger guard.

So if he didn’t attempt the flip he wouldn’t need to pickup the gun. If he didn’t have the to pickup up the gun he wouldn’t have fired it.

The stress and shock and embarrassment of his gun flying out caused him to break the rule of keeping his finger off the trigger.

To my knowledge FBI Agents are issued Glocks so a manual safety wouldn’t come into play. If he wasn’t acting like a fool there would be no ND. So his negligence began with that back flip.

For me personally I carry IWB. When un holstering. The gun and holster come out together. With my rig pointed in a safe direction I remove the mag and consciously with my finger up and away from the trigger rack the slide to eject the chambered round.

When holstering my rig goes into my waistband with the gun in the holster and the trigger protected. I check and make sure no clothing is in the way.

I check the retention of my Holsters with a loaded mag by shaking the holstered gun muzzle up with my hand under the gun over the bed or a seat cushion something soft to see if the gun will fall out.

I had a occasion recently where I was sitting on a chair that was on a platform maybe 6 inches off the ground. My chair was at the very edge and slipped off the platform and I got wedged between a wall at a angle. My gun was muzzle up IWB but didn’t fall out because of excellent holster and gun retention.
So there are situations that don’t involve doing back flips where holster retention is a very important part of safety.









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Re: Accidental shooting at TX gun range

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Stiff wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 12:43 pm Yet another knucklehead making our life harder.

Let's say you have a manual safety on your pistol. You train so you can deactivate the safety and shoot the gun as quickly as possible when you need to, and it becomes second nature. It doesn't matter how many manual safeties you have, when you have trained enough (as you should) to automatically defeat them.

What's important is to not break the safety rules. Don't point the gun at anything you're not going to shoot. Don't touch the trigger until you're ready to shoot. Make sure what's behind your target or safe area.
This. For years I carried both 1911s and Browning Hi-Powers. I still love these guns and wouldn't have any problem carrying one again, though in my decrepitude I prefer a smaller, lighter polymer framed gun if it's going to be on my belt all day. However, when you carry a gun with an external safety, you train to deactivate that safety while you're drawing the weapon, and (unless you're negligent in your training), it becomes second nature so that you would have to consciously think about it in order to not do it.

So, if you're playing quick draw such that you would have this kind of negligent shooting, you will almost certainly disable whatever safety mechanism your gun has and still shoot the guy, because if you were consciously thinking things through so as not to disengage the safety, you would be following the safety rules and not have an ND in the first place. Or, if you did stupidly pull the trigger, at least the gun wouldn't be pointed at anyone when it discharged.

And that's the thing: in order to negligently shoot someone like this, you have to violate at least two of the four rules, not just one. If you're reckless enough to do that, no reasonable safety feature on your gun is likely to stop you. You should be worrying about whether your brain is engaged, not your safety.

Negligence, by the way, is not unintentional. The consequences of negligence may be, but the negligent act itself that leads to those consequences is intentional. That's why it's called negligent, not accident. For example, this idiot intentionally drew a loaded gun on his coworker. That was an intentional negligent act. He presumably didn't intend to pull the trigger or shoot him, but those were mere consequences of his intentional negligent act.

Re: Accidental shooting at TX gun range

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awshoot » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:39 am

I get that it puts me a tactical disadvantage ...
awshoot, I am with you on this. I have read all about the 'tactical disadvantage'. Currently I am carrying a S&W 340 M&P 5 shot .357. The trigger pull is so long, and so stiff, it really is a safety. And there is a transfer, bar, etc. So dropping is not a problem.

Now I am moving to a Sig P365. No safety, light trigger. I love the firearm, but I don't think I can carry it with one in the chamber. The fact is that I am not a police officer, nor an FBI agent, nor am I in a combat zone. If my situational awareness does not give me adequate time to rack the slide, then I won't survive. But the likelihood of an AD is far greater than a failure in my spider sense.
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Re: Accidental shooting at TX gun range

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max129 wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:55 pm
awshoot » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:39 am

I get that it puts me a tactical disadvantage ...
awshoot, I am with you on this. I have read all about the 'tactical disadvantage'. Currently I am carrying a S&W 340 M&P 5 shot .357. The trigger pull is so long, and so stiff, it really is a safety. And there is a transfer, bar, etc. So dropping is not a problem.

Now I am moving to a Sig P365. No safety, light trigger. I love the firearm, but I don't think I can carry it with one in the chamber. The fact is that I am not a police officer, nor an FBI agent, nor am I in a combat zone. If my situational awareness does not give me adequate time to rack the slide, then I won't survive. But the likelihood of an AD is far greater than a failure in my spider sense.
First let me say that I am not criticizing either of you, your choices in what you carry, or your reasons for doing so. People should carry what and how they feel comfortable, and that will obviously be different for different people. My wife's EDC is single-double action, with a heavy first pull, a decocker/safety, and she carries with the chamber empty, because she worries about someone else getting her gun, not because she worries about NDs (though I strongly suspect there's some of that too). She figures that since no one will know that she carries that way, it'll take them long enough to figure it out and react that she'll have a chance to escape or otherwise react.

However, just for debate, how does one have an ND unless they're handling their firearm, and why would anyone be handling their firearm in public unless they needed to deploy it?

Except when I'm at the range, I almost never handle my EDC while it's loaded and unholstered. If I need to remove it from my belt (using the restroom, for example), I remove the holster with the gun still in it. Trigger is covered, no chance of an ND. Same when I dress/undress, go to bed, etc. The one time I do regularly unholster it while it's loaded is when I do dry-fire practice, but then I'm being very intentional about making sure it's unloaded and safe before I start, and that it is holstered and safe again when I finish.

There are so few opportunities to even have an ND that I really don't worry about a loaded chamber or lack of any external safety. And because those few instances where there is an opportunity for one are so controlled, I don't see it as much of an issue. But, again, everyone is different; just looking for different perspectives.

Re: Accidental shooting at TX gun range

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Evo1 said:

However, just for debate, how does one have an ND unless they're handling their firearm, and why would anyone be handling their firearm in public unless they needed to deploy it?
I think your point of view is quite rational. And I am willing to carry my Sig P320 SC hot. So why do I have a different standard for the P365?

1) The trigger pull is very light and has a short travel (nice trigger)

2) The normal way I carry is in a pocket holster - it works really well

3) All you need to do is trip and take a tumble and the combination of pocket holster, short trigger travel and light force required could very easily cause a ND (could shift out of your holster and drag on something external to your pocket while you are hitting the deck.)

So how often do I actually trip?

2002 at night in DC a sidewalk was off skew in a dark patch. I tripped big.

2011 in San Mateo, CA looking one way and hitting a bad patch of concrete - I had to do a parachute tumble.

2017 in St Petersburg Russia when the sidewalk was so slippery it was like a comedy movie.

So maybe I am a clumsy old fart. I average 6 to 7 km walking per day; maybe I have more opportunity.

And all this may sound irrational. But each person must weigh the various probabilities. I completely agree that firearms in sound condition do not simple fire themselves. And I am perfectly comfortable with -some- firearms carried hot. I have simply decided that all things considered, for my situation, the P365 is best carried without one up the nose. If I went into a more dangerous situation that I cannot just walk away from, then I would stop somewhere and move to 'hot'.

I think your POV is perfectly sound.
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Re: Accidental shooting at TX gun range

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... more ...

And there is something I really wonder a lot. What is the frequency of ND by police (and I don't mean when they are in confrontations - I mean just putting on the firearm, taking it off, going out to dinner with just a BUG). Is it 1 ND per lifetime per 10,000 police? 1 per 1,000 police? In general, I would guess it is the most under-reported accident on the planet. If you are a police officer, and you have a ND and could -not- report it, why would you?
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Re: Accidental shooting at TX gun range

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awshoot wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:13 am
TrueTexan wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:34 am The best prevention of a ND is using the space between your ears and that includes training.

As for what to carry that is a whole other ballgame. I feel many times what the person wants to carry vs. what they really need are two different things. When I do carry It is normally my S&W 686 plus 3 inch or my Ruger Alaskan. Both are double action revolvers so I don't worry about magazines issues, having to rack a slide, no safety to fiddle with, etc. I can carry my Sig 227 DA/SA with the decocker. That is my preferences for carry YMMV on this.
Brain: I agree. I also believe it isn't foolproof - at least not mine. For example, that dancing FBI agent would only have suffered a momentary embarrassment if he had an external safety rather than a life changing moment of negligence if there was something else between a brain fart and a ND besides a double action pull. For myself, I'm willing to forgo the safety factor of having less to fiddle with in the event a gun is necessary, for the safety factor of protecting against my own negligence.
I've never read the results of the blood-alcohol test on the back-flipping FBI agent, but he probably had been drinking by the way he grabbed his Glock and responded to the ND. A level 3 holster would have helped him. The two guns I use when I carry have a manual safety, unintended things can happen and I feel more comfortable. They both sweep down to fire, don't know why some pistols push up to fire there should be consistency.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Accidental shooting at TX gun range

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Evo1 wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:47 pm ....
This. For years I carried both 1911s and Browning Hi-Powers. I still love these guns and wouldn't have any problem carrying one again, though in my decrepitude I prefer a smaller, lighter polymer framed gun if it's going to be on my belt all day. However, when you carry a gun with an external safety, you train to deactivate that safety while you're drawing the weapon, and (unless you're negligent in your training), it becomes second nature so that you would have to consciously think about it in order to not do it.

...

Negligence, by the way, is not unintentional. The consequences of negligence may be, but the negligent act itself that leads to those consequences is intentional. That's why it's called negligent, not accident. For example, this idiot intentionally drew a loaded gun on his coworker. That was an intentional negligent act. He presumably didn't intend to pull the trigger or shoot him, but those were mere consequences of his intentional negligent act.
I get what you are saying about the safety. A safety wouldn't have protected the TX guy at the range. It would have protected the FBI agent providing it wasn't knocked off when the gun fell out.

As for negligence, the TX guy didn't intend to shoot someone -- he intentionally went through some motions with an unintended consequence. It's kind of like people who kill others with negligent driving. Sure, they intentionally ran a stop sign or were speeding or whatever, but they didn't intentionally harm someone. This is the reason such negligence would be punished at a lower level than intentionally aiming your car at a person and running them down then backing over them, twice, on purpose.

I do strive to be extra conscientious in all my dangerous activities, I just think I'm not immune from negligence. I'm not trying to say my way is right for anyone, or be snotty about it -- I am trying to say that I wish there were more new guns with the features I desire. ;-)

Re: Accidental shooting at TX gun range

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awshoot wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:16 pm
Evo1 wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 2:47 pm ....
This. For years I carried both 1911s and Browning Hi-Powers. I still love these guns and wouldn't have any problem carrying one again, though in my decrepitude I prefer a smaller, lighter polymer framed gun if it's going to be on my belt all day. However, when you carry a gun with an external safety, you train to deactivate that safety while you're drawing the weapon, and (unless you're negligent in your training), it becomes second nature so that you would have to consciously think about it in order to not do it.

...

Negligence, by the way, is not unintentional. The consequences of negligence may be, but the negligent act itself that leads to those consequences is intentional. That's why it's called negligent, not accident. For example, this idiot intentionally drew a loaded gun on his coworker. That was an intentional negligent act. He presumably didn't intend to pull the trigger or shoot him, but those were mere consequences of his intentional negligent act.
I get what you are saying about the safety. A safety wouldn't have protected the TX guy at the range. It would have protected the FBI agent providing it wasn't knocked off when the gun fell out.

As for negligence, the TX guy didn't intend to shoot someone -- he intentionally went through some motions with an unintended consequence. It's kind of like people who kill others with negligent driving. Sure, they intentionally ran a stop sign or were speeding or whatever, but they didn't intentionally harm someone. This is the reason such negligence would be punished at a lower level than intentionally aiming your car at a person and running them down then backing over them, twice, on purpose.

I do strive to be extra conscientious in all my dangerous activities, I just think I'm not immune from negligence. I'm not trying to say my way is right for anyone, or be snotty about it -- I am trying to say that I wish there were more new guns with the features I desire. ;-)
But that's my point exactly - the negligent act is the motion with unintended (but predictable) consequences. In the vehicle example, the negligent act is running the stop sign or speeding. They're both illegal specifically because they increase the probability of harm. The fact that the person intentionally ran the stop sign or sped makes harming someone a crime, not an accident, even though the harm itself wasn't intentional, because running a stop sign or speeding is negligent. In the TX case, the negligent act was drawing a loaded gun on a coworker, and violating two of the safety rules. Had he not committed these negligent acts, he wouldn't have shot his colleague. Hurting someone is not itself negligent, it is, in this case, the result of negligence. Legally, negligence means doing something that you know, or should have known (i.e., it's common sense) is likely to to lead to a negative consequence, such as causing someone physical harm. While harming someone may not be intentional, harming someone through negligence is, because negligence is intentional. Intentionally killing someone is murder; unintentionally but negligently killing someone is manslaughter, because the negligent act is intentional; killing someone through an action you didn't intend to do is an accident, and not a crime at all.

As I said earlier, everyone should carry what they are comfortable with in the manner they are comfortable carrying. And I agree, there should be more guns with features that allow people to do so. I'm certainly not saying my choice of carry is superior. It's what I'm comfortable with, and I think that, combined with my method of carry and my habits in handling my firearm, it's sufficiently safe for myself. I know people for whom that's not true, and so they should do things differently.
Last edited by Evo1 on Fri Aug 03, 2018 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Accidental shooting at TX gun range

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max129 wrote: Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:00 pm
Evo1 said:

However, just for debate, how does one have an ND unless they're handling their firearm, and why would anyone be handling their firearm in public unless they needed to deploy it?
I think your point of view is quite rational. And I am willing to carry my Sig P320 SC hot. So why do I have a different standard for the P365?

1) The trigger pull is very light and has a short travel (nice trigger)

2) The normal way I carry is in a pocket holster - it works really well

3) All you need to do is trip and take a tumble and the combination of pocket holster, short trigger travel and light force required could very easily cause a ND (could shift out of your holster and drag on something external to your pocket while you are hitting the deck.)

So how often do I actually trip?

2002 at night in DC a sidewalk was off skew in a dark patch. I tripped big.

2011 in San Mateo, CA looking one way and hitting a bad patch of concrete - I had to do a parachute tumble.

2017 in St Petersburg Russia when the sidewalk was so slippery it was like a comedy movie.

So maybe I am a clumsy old fart. I average 6 to 7 km walking per day; maybe I have more opportunity.

And all this may sound irrational. But each person must weigh the various probabilities. I completely agree that firearms in sound condition do not simple fire themselves. And I am perfectly comfortable with -some- firearms carried hot. I have simply decided that all things considered, for my situation, the P365 is best carried without one up the nose. If I went into a more dangerous situation that I cannot just walk away from, then I would stop somewhere and move to 'hot'.

I think your POV is perfectly sound.
I can see your point with pocket carry. The possibility of other items in my pocket getting into the trigger guard is one reason I avoid it. And certainly, if I had a history of falls like yours, I might consider changing things a bit. I don't consider the trigger pull on the 365 to be an issue. It's really not any lighter than many other guns, and not as light as some I've carried. But then I don't pocket carry mine when I carry it. I love it as a carry gun by the way.

I don't think your choices are at all irrational. They make you comfortable, and that's what matters. I'm just curious about why people make the choices they do.

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