As part of my ongoing struggle to hit the target... consistently, I had an epiphany yesterday when I shot the Postal Match 2.
Targets 1 and 2 were the 15 yard range, and after blazing through those. I paused and took the time to analyze the pattern. Ok, I thought, not bad... for a shotgun pattern.
A few more moments reflection as I loaded target 3 for the first 7 yard string brought me to the conclusion that it wasn't my stance, modified isosceles, or my grip, two-handed isometric opposition from my off-hand arm vs the shooting arm.
As I stood there with the target in my sights I went over my firing position and the light bulb went off.
My firing arm had a flexed elbow. Thinking about how my arm moved during firing I straightened that arm and locked the elbow.
The next two strings showed a very welcome improvement. The 3-shot groups tightened to a very acceptable degree, and produced very good results.
With the increased control in the firing arm, the recoil ceased to move the barrel significantly from the point of aim. To verify the results, I put a B2 target down range at 15 yards and put another string of 12 into it. I was rewarded with a 3" x 3" shot group.
Re: Pistol Technique
2Hmmm...
Every body is different, and whatever works for you etc.
But I can't even straighten/lock my shooting arm elbow in my modified isosceles shooting stance. I don't think I've seen any pictures or videos of top shooters doing so. [Edit: ...other than one-handed Bullseye shooters.]
I'd like to hear from others on this.
Every body is different, and whatever works for you etc.
But I can't even straighten/lock my shooting arm elbow in my modified isosceles shooting stance. I don't think I've seen any pictures or videos of top shooters doing so. [Edit: ...other than one-handed Bullseye shooters.]
I'd like to hear from others on this.
"To initiate a war of aggression...is the supreme international crime" - Nuremberg prosecutor Robert Jackson, 1946
Re: Pistol Technique
3Nice!
I have all sorts of tiny flaws in my shooting technique - elbows is part of it.
As soon as I focus on eliminating one, the others start creeping back in.
Good work on the improvement.
I have all sorts of tiny flaws in my shooting technique - elbows is part of it.
As soon as I focus on eliminating one, the others start creeping back in.
Good work on the improvement.
Re: Pistol Technique
4Flexed elbows can absorb some recoil. What were you shooting (I'm too lazy to look that up)?
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Re: Pistol Technique
5Is it just me, or is there a complete difference in how you shoot for small groups at a distance, and how you shoot for time at larger targets and closer distances?
Re: Pistol Technique
6I prefer the gangster style shooting stance. LOL
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Re: Pistol Technique
7I don't lock my elbows, but followthrough is important whatever way you get it.
Re: Pistol Technique
8I was shooting my Beretta 92FS, 9mm.
The way it feels to me is that the recoil is absorbed by my shoulders, there is backward movement there and limited transverse or upward movement. I have long arms, being 6'1". Not excessive but enough that I need to control the floppies that a relaxed elbow induces.
As to the timed and long distance shooting at small targets, I have more consistency when I relax to a ready position, rather than try to continue to hold POA. This reduces tremors and allows my muscles to relax and recover for the next shot.
The way it feels to me is that the recoil is absorbed by my shoulders, there is backward movement there and limited transverse or upward movement. I have long arms, being 6'1". Not excessive but enough that I need to control the floppies that a relaxed elbow induces.
As to the timed and long distance shooting at small targets, I have more consistency when I relax to a ready position, rather than try to continue to hold POA. This reduces tremors and allows my muscles to relax and recover for the next shot.
If you want to be a leader, lead from the front, and don't look back.
Re: Pistol Technique
9I keep both elbows flexed and shoulders locked, I turn from the waist to transition to the next target. My style of shooting is better for action shooting than static shooting, but it carries through to static shooting.
Re: Pistol Technique
10Most shooters get better results when they don't lock elbows in isosceles. Better recoil control, quicker follow-up shots, less muscle tension. Some also report more injuries with locked elbows.
But there are always exceptions.
But there are always exceptions.
Re: Pistol Technique
11What can I say? when Dr. Frankenstein assembled me he used a lot of different parts.
If you want to be a leader, lead from the front, and don't look back.
Re: Pistol Technique
12Hmm, I know I keep my arm pretty straight, but I'll have to check the next time I go out to be sure I don't lock it. Loosening that up some might help my consistency.
Maybe the key is to hold your arm as straight as you can, but not lock.
I took a marksmanship course a while back that really helped me improve my groupings. If anyone is interested I can post the steps they taught.
Maybe the key is to hold your arm as straight as you can, but not lock.
I took a marksmanship course a while back that really helped me improve my groupings. If anyone is interested I can post the steps they taught.
Re: Pistol Technique
13I do have to say though that when Fukshot tried my handguns at the Chabot meet a while back, she definitely had looser arms/elbows than I tend to use and she shot rings around my groupings.
Re: Pistol Technique
14Didn't you just out shoot me in a match?leitmotiv wrote:I do have to say though that when Fukshot tried my handguns at the Chabot meet a while back, she definitely had looser arms/elbows than I tend to use and she shot rings around my groupings.
Re: Pistol Technique
16Just barely, but I only speak the truth! Based on my observationFukshot wrote:Didn't you just out shoot me in a match?
Last edited by leitmotiv on Fri May 01, 2015 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Pistol Technique
17Wait! Was that literal rings? Wouldn't that be a very wide shot group?leitmotiv wrote:Just barely, but I only speak the truth! Based on my observationFukshot wrote:Didn't you just out shoot me in a match?
If you want to be a leader, lead from the front, and don't look back.
Re: Pistol Technique
18I modified it some since it was a very basic course with a lot of safety instructions. It was my introduction to handguns.
-Place your firing hand as high on the back of the grip as possible.
-Place the heel of your support hand on the grip, wrap your fingers around on top of the firing hand’s
fingers.
-Make certain your fingers are close together and all of them remain below
the trigger guard.
-Place your thumbs one on top of the other and hold them away from the
gun.
-Get into your firing stance (Modified Isosceles)
-Bend your support elbow down.
-Lock, then relax your firing elbow.
-Very lightly, push forward with your firing hand and pull down and back with
your support hand
-Put some pressure on the grip with the heel of your support hand
-Take up the slack in the trigger
-Breath and relax your muscles
-Press the trigger smoothly and slowly waiting for the "surprise release". (In the classroom portion he had us use a small pretzel stick to simulate this)
-Wait for the gun to fully cycle and return to battery. before releasing the trigger.
-Trigger Reset: Ease pressure off the trigger until you hear a click (This is
the reset point on the Glock. (It should be back to the point where the slack
is taken up). Reset procedures on other gun models may vary.
-Place your firing hand as high on the back of the grip as possible.
-Place the heel of your support hand on the grip, wrap your fingers around on top of the firing hand’s
fingers.
-Make certain your fingers are close together and all of them remain below
the trigger guard.
-Place your thumbs one on top of the other and hold them away from the
gun.
-Get into your firing stance (Modified Isosceles)
-Bend your support elbow down.
-Lock, then relax your firing elbow.
-Very lightly, push forward with your firing hand and pull down and back with
your support hand
-Put some pressure on the grip with the heel of your support hand
-Take up the slack in the trigger
-Breath and relax your muscles
-Press the trigger smoothly and slowly waiting for the "surprise release". (In the classroom portion he had us use a small pretzel stick to simulate this)
-Wait for the gun to fully cycle and return to battery. before releasing the trigger.
-Trigger Reset: Ease pressure off the trigger until you hear a click (This is
the reset point on the Glock. (It should be back to the point where the slack
is taken up). Reset procedures on other gun models may vary.
Re: Pistol Technique
19Gotta watch how I phrase these things around here.sturner wrote:Wait! Was that literal rings? Wouldn't that be a very wide shot group?
Re: Pistol Technique
20This might also be useful:leitmotiv wrote:I modified it some since it was a very basic course with a lot of safety instructions. It was my introduction to handguns.
-Place your firing hand as high on the back of the grip as possible.
-Place the heel of your support hand on the grip, wrap your fingers around on top of the firing hand’s
fingers.
-Make certain your fingers are close together and all of them remain below
the trigger guard.
-Place your thumbs one on top of the other and hold them away from the
gun.
-Get into your firing stance (Modified Isosceles)
-Bend your support elbow down.
-Lock, then relax your firing elbow.
-Very lightly, push forward with your firing hand and pull down and back with
your support hand
-Put some pressure on the grip with the heel of your support hand
-Take up the slack in the trigger
-Breath and relax your muscles
-Press the trigger smoothly and slowly waiting for the "surprise release". (In the classroom portion he had us use a small pretzel stick to simulate this)
-Wait for the gun to fully cycle and return to battery. before releasing the trigger.
-Trigger Reset: Ease pressure off the trigger until you hear a click (This is
the reset point on the Glock. (It should be back to the point where the slack
is taken up). Reset procedures on other gun models may vary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iQb8j_hXnM
Re: Pistol Technique
21Yes, yes, that's all very well but where's the bit that says 'stop the front sight wandering all around the bullseye.........somehow.leitmotiv wrote:I modified it some since it was a very basic course with a lot of safety instructions. It was my introduction to handguns.
-Place your firing hand as high on the back of the grip as possible.
-Place the heel of your support hand on the grip, wrap your fingers around on top of the firing hand’s
fingers.
-Make certain your fingers are close together and all of them remain below
the trigger guard.
-Place your thumbs one on top of the other and hold them away from the
gun.
-Get into your firing stance (Modified Isosceles)
-Bend your support elbow down.
-Lock, then relax your firing elbow.
-Very lightly, push forward with your firing hand and pull down and back with
your support hand
-Put some pressure on the grip with the heel of your support hand
-Take up the slack in the trigger
-Breath and relax your muscles
-Press the trigger smoothly and slowly waiting for the "surprise release". (In the classroom portion he had us use a small pretzel stick to simulate this)
-Wait for the gun to fully cycle and return to battery. before releasing the trigger.
-Trigger Reset: Ease pressure off the trigger until you hear a click (This is
the reset point on the Glock. (It should be back to the point where the slack
is taken up). Reset procedures on other gun models may vary.
Chamber's empty, magazine's full, safety's broken.
Re: Pistol Technique
22Much better to see it visually than my list of steps. I'm going to check out more of his videos.hgratt wrote:This might also be useful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iQb8j_hXnM
How much coffee did you have before heading to the range...nigel wrote:Yes, yes, that's all very well but where's the bit that says 'stop the front sight wandering all around the bullseye.........somehow.
Re: Pistol Technique
23Wandering POA means you need to relax to a ready position and start again.nigel wrote:Yes, yes, that's all very well but where's the bit that says 'stop the front sight wandering all around the bullseye.........somehow.leitmotiv wrote:I modified it some since it was a very basic course with a lot of safety instructions. It was my introduction to handguns.
-Place your firing hand as high on the back of the grip as possible.
-Place the heel of your support hand on the grip, wrap your fingers around on top of the firing hand’s
fingers.
-Make certain your fingers are close together and all of them remain below
the trigger guard.
-Place your thumbs one on top of the other and hold them away from the
gun.
-Get into your firing stance (Modified Isosceles)
-Bend your support elbow down.
-Lock, then relax your firing elbow.
-Very lightly, push forward with your firing hand and pull down and back with
your support hand
-Put some pressure on the grip with the heel of your support hand
-Take up the slack in the trigger
-Breath and relax your muscles
-Press the trigger smoothly and slowly waiting for the "surprise release". (In the classroom portion he had us use a small pretzel stick to simulate this)
-Wait for the gun to fully cycle and return to battery. before releasing the trigger.
-Trigger Reset: Ease pressure off the trigger until you hear a click (This is
the reset point on the Glock. (It should be back to the point where the slack
is taken up). Reset procedures on other gun models may vary.
You shouldn't hold the sight picture for more than a few seconds.
If you want to be a leader, lead from the front, and don't look back.
Re: Pistol Technique
24I'm old (70) and have lost some fine motor control. My technique is learning to "time the jitters" as best as possible so as to fire at the correct sighting position. So far, I can keep most of my shots within the 7-8 ring at seven yards while firing at a rate of about once per second. Also training to shoot while keeping both eyes open.sturner wrote:Wandering POA means you need to relax to a ready position and start again.nigel wrote:Yes, yes, that's all very well but where's the bit that says 'stop the front sight wandering all around the bullseye.........somehow.leitmotiv wrote:I modified it some since it was a very basic course with a lot of safety instructions. It was my introduction to handguns.
-Place your firing hand as high on the back of the grip as possible.
-Place the heel of your support hand on the grip, wrap your fingers around on top of the firing hand’s
fingers.
-Make certain your fingers are close together and all of them remain below
the trigger guard.
-Place your thumbs one on top of the other and hold them away from the
gun.
-Get into your firing stance (Modified Isosceles)
-Bend your support elbow down.
-Lock, then relax your firing elbow.
-Very lightly, push forward with your firing hand and pull down and back with
your support hand
-Put some pressure on the grip with the heel of your support hand
-Take up the slack in the trigger
-Breath and relax your muscles
-Press the trigger smoothly and slowly waiting for the "surprise release". (In the classroom portion he had us use a small pretzel stick to simulate this)
-Wait for the gun to fully cycle and return to battery. before releasing the trigger.
-Trigger Reset: Ease pressure off the trigger until you hear a click (This is
the reset point on the Glock. (It should be back to the point where the slack
is taken up). Reset procedures on other gun models may vary.
You shouldn't hold the sight picture for more than a few seconds.
The upside is that timing to shoot with the "jitters" may be closer to a real life SD situation.
Re: Pistol Technique
25Also be aware of your Natural Point of Aim. It's an undervalued element of shooting instruction but can make a big difference. Most muscle tension is the enemy. Also why I'm not a fan of any push-pull techniques.sturner wrote:Wandering POA means you need to relax to a ready position and start again.nigel wrote:Yes, yes, that's all very well but where's the bit that says 'stop the front sight wandering all around the bullseye.........somehow.leitmotiv wrote:I modified it some since it was a very basic course with a lot of safety instructions. It was my introduction to handguns.
-Place your firing hand as high on the back of the grip as possible.
-Place the heel of your support hand on the grip, wrap your fingers around on top of the firing hand’s
fingers.
-Make certain your fingers are close together and all of them remain below
the trigger guard.
-Place your thumbs one on top of the other and hold them away from the
gun.
-Get into your firing stance (Modified Isosceles)
-Bend your support elbow down.
-Lock, then relax your firing elbow.
-Very lightly, push forward with your firing hand and pull down and back with
your support hand
-Put some pressure on the grip with the heel of your support hand
-Take up the slack in the trigger
-Breath and relax your muscles
-Press the trigger smoothly and slowly waiting for the "surprise release". (In the classroom portion he had us use a small pretzel stick to simulate this)
-Wait for the gun to fully cycle and return to battery. before releasing the trigger.
-Trigger Reset: Ease pressure off the trigger until you hear a click (This is
the reset point on the Glock. (It should be back to the point where the slack
is taken up). Reset procedures on other gun models may vary.
You shouldn't hold the sight picture for more than a few seconds.