Center hold or six o'clock hold for Bullseye?

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Do you use a center hold or six o'clock hold when shooting at bullseye targets?

Center hold
4
31%
Six o'clock
7
54%
Gangster style
0
No votes
I close my eyes and pull the trigger
2
15%
 
Total votes: 13

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AndyH
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Re: Center hold or six o'clock hold for Bullseye?

#26 Post by AndyH » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:46 pm

VodoundaVinci wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:54 pm
Rifles or pistols?

Depends on the gun and how the sights are set up. I never shoot handguns for bullseye and all my rifles have optics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aH2xnj5ZFv8

Personally I point shoot or use indexing/threat focused shooting. I never attempt to gain a sight picture with a handgun. I stare with wide eyes at the threat, move, and engage via point shooting. I look at the threat - never the gun.

I never shoot bullseye with a handgun for fear I will root and acquire sights in a gunfight at 12' in which case I will be dead before I acquire a proper sight picture and squeeze off a round. I shoot while running and looking at the target as I move laterally to cover. Any attempt to acquire sights is death.

If yer target shooting with handguns please disregard my opinion and carry on. All my rifles have optics with iron sights as back up.

VooDoo
Thanks VooDoo! Cool vid (though I think she was a tad off with the 6 o'clock hold image). I've been working on my point shooting and have been having a lot of problems moving back and forth between defensive and bullseye with pistols. I'm a rifle guy and normally use a center hold. I've found that I can use a center hold with my Beretta M9 but have to use a combat hold with my Glocks at 7 and 15 yards. I'm sticking with defensive, I think.
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Re: Center hold or six o'clock hold for Bullseye?

#27 Post by danhue » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:35 pm

Isn't the center hold the same as the combat hold?

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Re: Center hold or six o'clock hold for Bullseye?

#28 Post by featureless » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:47 pm

danhue wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:35 pm
Isn't the center hold the same as the combat hold?
From what I understand, kinda sorta. Combat hold would imply a combat sight picture where the dot on the front sight is intended to be put on the thing you want to shoot. It's not as accurate since the front sight post obscures your target but faster since its a "dot on the spot" sort of deal. Now to see who corrects me. :oops:

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Re: Center hold or six o'clock hold for Bullseye?

#29 Post by AndyH » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:16 pm

featureless wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:47 pm
danhue wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:35 pm
Isn't the center hold the same as the combat hold?
From what I understand, kinda sorta. Combat hold would imply a combat sight picture where the dot on the front sight is intended to be put on the thing you want to shoot. It's not as accurate since the front sight post obscures your target but faster since its a "dot on the spot" sort of deal. Now to see who corrects me. :oops:
I think you've got it, featureless. At 7 and 15 yards, the hole in the paper appears under the dot on my Glock's front sight (G17 and G19), not on the top of the post. They're very combaty. ;)

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Re: Center hold or six o'clock hold for Bullseye?

#30 Post by joemac » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:09 pm

Buck13 wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:05 am
joemac wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:11 pm
OK, so I'm going to go ahead and sound like an idiot: can someone explain what the two terms mean? Or better yet, show pictures?
Center hold means the top of your front sight blade is cutting across the center of the circle of the bullseye, so if your hold was perfect, you would see a half-circle of the black target center above the sight. The problem is that the 10 ring of a B2 (50 foot slow-fire) target is slightly smaller than a quarter, while the black region of the target (including the 7 ring) is about the size of a tennis ball. So, if you're focused on the front sight, as is recommended, you're trying to judge the alignment of a black sight with the center of a fuzzy black patch, and you can only be off by 1/2" at 50 feet if you want to get a 10, which is hard to judge. And in poor light (many indoor ranges) black sights against a black bull get hard to see at all.

Six o'clock hold means that the top of your front sight blade is just touching the bottom of the bottom of the black 7 ring (it forms a line segment tangent to the bottom of the black bullseye). Even though you are focused on the front sight and the edge of the bullseye looks blurry, if it's not TOO badly out of focus, you can judge the edge of it consistently enough that, in principle, you can place the sight more accurately (vertically) than you probably can judge by the half-circle method of a center hold, and since the low point of the circle is a fairly perceptible location you can judge laterally with high precision, too. The sight blade is against the white part of the target (except at that tangent point), so good contrast. But the little gap between the sight and the bull winking open and closed makes your shaking obvious, which makes it tempting to grab at the best instant, which is doomed to failure!

There's also something called a sub-6 hold, which I don't understand yet.



bpslideslessonii-21-638.jpg
Thank you. I am now a bit more educated. Pictures definitely helped. I guess I had been doing center but now I am going to set up a couple of targets and try both methods back to back to see if I can tell a difference at 50 feet. I have white 3 dot sights (my eyes are a half century old...) on my primary handgun.

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Re: Center hold or six o'clock hold for Bullseye?

#31 Post by Buck13 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:43 pm

joemac wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:09 pm
(my eyes are a half century old...)
Mine, too! :beer2:

I'm quite near-sighted. My "shooting glasses" are a pair of glasses I bought in about 1993, which, in addition to unfashionably large and heavy lenses, happen to have a correction about 0.75 diopters weaker than my current correction for infinity. Those give me just enough under-power correction that I can get the front sight in focus (barely). At my last optometry appointment, I got a few sample pairs of contacts that are similarly under-strength to try when shooting, but I haven't tested them yet.

If you are not near-sighted (or want to wear normal contacts) you might try Foster Grant Multi-focus reading glasses. They have 1/2 the stated strength at the top of the lens, so if they are labeled +1.5 diopters they should be only +0.75 at the top, which may work for the front sight without being TOO strong. Try them out in a store to see if you can focus just beyond your fingertips. You can get slip-on side shields for not much over 5 bucks from any safety catalog to give some lateral protection against flying brass.
Last edited by Buck13 on Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Center hold or six o'clock hold for Bullseye?

#32 Post by stl303 » Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:41 pm

I'm a 6 o'clock on anything with adjustable iron sights. At 45ft, I haven't noted any difference within the margin of error of my skills with ammo, outside of possible group size. That is to say... I don't note my hits any higher with HV vs SV in the same pistol, same sight adjustment. (.22LR)

Red dot I have set up for POI at 45'

The trouble comes in with anything milsurp, with fixed irons. Those seem to be locked in on a center / cover the target hold - which as has been noted is damned near impossible to see against a black bull in a dim indoor range. There I have to line up the sights at 6 o'clock, then raise my aim appropriately until I think I'm about there. Either way if it was a human they'd be hurtin'.. but accuracy is not all there.
Brian in StL

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