On Killing- by Grossman

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Has anyone read Col Grossman's book(s)?

I am about half way through "On Killing"

http://www.amazon.com/On-Killing-Psycho ... on+killing

I have been involved in 2 incidents in the last year where I could have used deadly force, but did not. I think I know why I did what I did, and didn't do what I didn't do, but in that force on force training, the Marine running it suggested this as a thing to read for anyone who may have to use deadly force.

The book is a slog. I don;t much care for some of his assumptions, they seem dismissive of racism and the real sources of violence in the world, he's a bit of am armchair quarterback in that he has never seen combat (by his own admission in the foreword), his prose is painful and badly constructed and melodramatic, and he presents his work as an academic study, but fails to provide the sort of rigourous references for his assertions regularly as I would expect from a dispassionate academic study, so you can't necessarily distinguish referenced fact from opinion.

But its interesting, in a disturbing sort of way.

Anyone else read it?

Re: On Killing- by Grossman

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Inquisitor wrote: His general thesis is that humans (generally, some high percentage) are not predisposed to taking life, at least at short range.
I think there are solid studies showing just that.
And there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular, but he must do it because Conscience tells him it is right. -- MLK

Re: On Killing- by Grossman

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I think, based on your description of this title, I'll stick to Mas Ayoob for this kind of material. As a policeman he has come close on a couple of occasions to needing to use deadly force but in the end has not had to and the relief at that fact comes through in his writings. I won't say I consider him to be a perfect source, but he does seem to have more understanding of the realities involved than I think Mr. Grossman does based on your description of his work.
Live like you will never die, love like you've never been hurt, dance
like no-one is watching.
Alex White

Re: On Killing- by Grossman

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Grossman's career includes service in the U.S. Army as a sergeant in the 82nd Airborne Division, a platoon leader in the 9th Infantry Division, a general staff officer, a company commander in the 7th (Light) Infantry Division as well as a parachute infantryman, a U.S. Army Ranger and a teacher of psychology at West Point.
Apparently his books make several LEO and MIL required reading lists as well, so someone thinks he knows what he's talking about.

Just for reference, I don't want to undersell the man just because I dislike his prose and some of his assumptions :)

Re: On Killing- by Grossman

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Interesting biography. Born in 1956 so he would have enlisted about '74 to '76, was a Ranger, apparently retreaded into an officer at some point, attached to infantry organizations, retired in 1998, and never saw any combat? I wonder where he was assigned during Urgent Fury in 1983 and Desert Shield/Storm in 1990?
"There never was a union of church and state which did not bring serious evils to religion."
The Right Reverend John England, first Roman Catholic Bishop of Charleston SC, 1825.

Re: On Killing- by Grossman

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I read it years ago. I think I liked it well enough. I still have it so I didn't hate it. I have read on another forum that the poster met Col. Grossman somewhere in the Army and He was a poser. That guy did not like him. For whatever that is worth. Along the same lines is the "Face of Battle" by John Keegan. I recommend anything by Keegan.
KL

Re: On Killing- by Grossman

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Almost 3 years later (his name comes up now and then here at the LGC) and I still haven't finished the book. But I don't mind his style at all. My attention span, particularly while reading, has gone down the pits.

I think he places too much weight on violent games/movies...and on Soldier of Fortune. Other than that, I think it's a good read. About his lack of combat experience, same goes for John Keegan and similar military armchair academics.

If you want a more literate perspective (and primarily on hunting), there is "On Killing: Meditations on the Chase", ed. Robert F. Jones.
http://www.amazon.com/On-Killing-Medita ... 1585742686

Xela
"We are all born mad. Some remain so." Waiting for Godot

"...as soon as there is language, generality has entered the scene..." Derrida

On Killing- by Grossman

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I read this awhile ago. I don't remember thinking it was a slog, and I have a generally low tolerance for poor writing. I've recommended it over the years. I would agree that his epilogue on video games seemed less solid than the proceeding material. Overall I thought it made a lot of sense. I havent kept up with him... I think he had a newer book out, but I haven't read it.
Aim past the target.

Image


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Re: On Killing- by Grossman

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Isn't he the guy who coined--or at least tried to coin--the term "killology"? Call me a language snob (I took ancient Greek in secondary school) but I have difficulty bringing myself to trust the insights of someone who couldn't be arsed to look up (or have a researcher look up) "to kill" in a Greek dictionary. I just did it in less than a minute: "apokteinology," there you go.
Sergeant Colon had had a broad education. He'd been to the School of My Dad Always Said, the College of It Stands To Reason, and was now a post-graduate student of the University of What Some Bloke In The Pub Told Me. -- Terry Pratchett, Jingo

Re: On Killing- by Grossman

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Euromutt wrote:Isn't he the guy who coined--or at least tried to coin--the term "killology"? Call me a language snob (I took ancient Greek in secondary school) but I have difficulty bringing myself to trust the insights of someone who couldn't be arsed to look up (or have a researcher look up) "to kill" in a Greek dictionary. I just did it in less than a minute: "apokteinology," there you go.
Yah.

On Killing- by Grossman

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I've read On Killing and On Combat, and found both to be truthful in my opinion. The military studies done after WW2 and Korea, including the ones he cites by S.L.A. Marshal had large impacts on DoD doctrine in ground combat. The M16 was selected to replace the M14 based on some of the assessments found from these studies. Training doctrine was dramatically changed, which took the firing rates of "shooting to kill" from an estimated 35% in Korea to around 95% by the end of Vietnam.


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Re: On Killing- by Grossman

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Inquisitor wrote:Has anyone read Col Grossman's book(s)?

I am about half way through "On Killing"

http://www.amazon.com/On-Killing-Psycho ... on+killing

I have been involved in 2 incidents in the last year where I could have used deadly force, but did not. I think I know why I did what I did, and didn't do what I didn't do, but in that force on force training, the Marine running it suggested this as a thing to read for anyone who may have to use deadly force.

The book is a slog. I don;t much care for some of his assumptions, they seem dismissive of racism and the real sources of violence in the world, he's a bit of am armchair quarterback in that he has never seen combat (by his own admission in the foreword), his prose is painful and badly constructed and melodramatic, and he presents his work as an academic study, but fails to provide the sort of rigourous references for his assertions regularly as I would expect from a dispassionate academic study, so you can't necessarily distinguish referenced fact from opinion.

But its interesting, in a disturbing sort of way.

Anyone else read it?
I have read the book and it should be read by anyone with firearms who might use lethal force.
Between the idea
And the reality
Between the motion
And the act
Falls the Shadow

T. S. Eliot

Re: On Killing- by Grossman

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As a counterpoint to Col Grossman's book, you can read "The Last Full Measure: How Soldiers Die in Battle" by Michael Stephenson. He goes over a lot of the same ground and offers countering observations, especially when you look at the older wars. I listened to both of the titles via audiobook in an effort to make a commute more meaningful than staring at car asses for 45 minutes.
some days, I just don't English

Re: On Killing- by Grossman

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Inquisitor wrote:Has anyone read Col Grossman's book(s)?

I am about half way through "On Killing"

http://www.amazon.com/On-Killing-Psycho ... on+killing

I have been involved in 2 incidents in the last year where I could have used deadly force, but did not. I think I know why I did what I did, and didn't do what I didn't do, but in that force on force training, the Marine running it suggested this as a thing to read for anyone who may have to use deadly force.

The book is a slog. I don;t much care for some of his assumptions, they seem dismissive of racism and the real sources of violence in the world, he's a bit of am armchair quarterback in that he has never seen combat (by his own admission in the foreword), his prose is painful and badly constructed and melodramatic, and he presents his work as an academic study, but fails to provide the sort of rigourous references for his assertions regularly as I would expect from a dispassionate academic study, so you can't necessarily distinguish referenced fact from opinion.

But its interesting, in a disturbing sort of way.

Anyone else read it?
I took his Bullet Proof Mind course.. it helped with some issues I had, some, did a lot of therapy as well... I can see where it might reduce some of the impact of having to kill if you haven't already done so.. And I don't just mean you kill somebody personally.. you can get folks killed sending them out, you can order folks to kill, and in both cases die line of duty. Survivors Guilt as well.

One thing for damn sure.. you don't want to walk into that situation mentally unprepared for what you brain/body does and have to go thru all the second guessing without any foundation if your don't have to. Good, bad, or indifferent, Grossman is the guy that studied this stuff, did a lot of primary research with the troops ,developed some of the therapies for PTSD, ( not the pills actual therapy) Is a Psychologist and Taught Psychology at West Point

probably most famous for On Sheep Wolves and Sheepdogs https://www.killology.com/sheep-wolves-and-sheepdogs

Got a website with some of his articles and excerpts https://www.killology.com/

got shorter version for LEO of Bullet Proof Mind on you tube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX4k96Z4U5E

Better than what we had before which was basically nothing , well maybe some prejudice and getting slapped by a General or two.

It's your head .. take care of it.

Getting a lot of push back on this whole topic is pretty common .. folks have preconceptions about themselves their grace under fire bravery .. it sort of sets them up for disappointment and they don't want to hear it. But finding and finally accepting that it isn't anything to do with the conscious you or you as a person or being brave. You have a primitive brain wired to responds to life threatening situation by dumping certain hormones and other chemical triggers that trigger your adrenal glands, effect you eyesight, limit your thinking, redirect blood flow and thus oxygen, even automagically trigger a few defense mechanisms that nobody wants to admit they have, that make you smell bad and taste bad, real bad.. so you might not get eaten none of which you have any control over, all of which you can cope with, and compensate for, if you know that it might or will happen...

Blood to my stomach.. pulling it into my center so, if I lose a limb I will bleed less, is counteracted by my adrenalin rush and allows me to , well so far, deal with some pretty gross wounds on others .. handled guy that got his face slashed up and both eyeballs cut open and he opened them and looked right at me while I was trying to stop the bleeding of a head wound.. that was a long time ago.. but I see it tonight typing this.. some folks that got blown up with traumatic amputation .. some folks that had to be shot under rules of engagement of the place and time I was at.. all of which I am holding off the visuals of.

anyway.. I'm a puker .. when the adrenalin stops when help arrives to handle the wounded .I'm a ( was)explosives and bomb expert not a medic, 55G4H Special Weapons but we also got a lot of side duties, mostly crypto stuff but also maybe once a month .. destructing the stuff on the suspended and suspect list for the whole Corp or some assigned part of it.. some months not. and some of that stuff was definitely suspect.. and that adrenalin drops with all the blood in my core I puke dramatically and violently... beats the hell out of crapping my pants.. more something you do when dying.. but we had this one technician .. had another that got uncontrollable hiccups.. once started they had to take him to the hospital and sedate the heck out of him.. he could still work and hiccup, but they never stopped on their own. Had one guy cool as ice , never flinched didn't get what was wrong with everybody else .. until one day , one calm normal everyday day he just keeled over gushing blood from his mouth .. ulcer ruptured in his stomach.. almost lost him.. we transferred him to a nice quiet job working on helicopters .

See most folks get sort of wrapped up in if they can kill .. that's the conscious mind, the ego balancing threat and risk to killing somebody making judgements checking odds morality, legality, you train to be aware of what is behind your target/ threat did you know that the FBI dropped over penetration as a consideration of their service round because the misses where more frequent and far more dangerous than an occasional over pen. .. meanwhile, all on it's own your most primitive brain is going "I'm gonna Die and it might eat me" and takes over and if that all comes as surprise to you it is hard to do moral equivalences while you try and hit target as everything screams run and half your vital organs go on a freakout..

Yes Yes, I know self defense, and defense of others, clear unambiguous threat and obviously innocent lives .. yeah, it always plays out that way. and nobody here has loaded up their head with a bunch of resentments about the government interfering with your rights and if it is even worth it, and that your decision is not going to be accepted without at least a Grand Jury, and we know what they get for jurors where you live..

Nope, clear mind, organized, skilled muscle memory, it's a drill , well almost sorta ..

this is where I would be trying to sell you self defense insurance ...

I won't but I will mention I carry the NRA approve self defense insurance and it does take part of that mental load off .. I also have a lawyer and I have spent some time with him , about an hour about the same cost as therapy and worth a heck of a lot more .. I know what he needs me to do before during and after to give him the best chance of defending me... in the local courts under local law .. Luckly Alabama , which is a good place to be under those circumstances .. not taking anything for granted mind you .. I have a couple demographic handicaps that may predispose the good people of Alabama against me.

Re: On Killing- by Grossman

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Grossman has been somewhat controversial for some of the aforementioned reasons but generally the verdict seems to be that it is good to read his books.

Massad Ayoob is also highly recommended for being a policeman that strives to deescalate and not use deadly force, but also recognized it is necessary.

I definitely think both authors are worth reading and taking into consideration but understand that in use of deadly force, I think it's still hard to be prepared for how you react to it and the aftermath.

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