Re: How do I zero in on a 45-70 load?

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I love this cartridge, so I keep coming back to this thread.

So far no one really has addressed the question of "How do I zero in on a .45-70 load?"

I risk being redundant here, so forgive me.

When I find someone's pet load, or a load printed in a book, and I want to find what my rifle does with that bullet or powder that I don't know, I make this plan: I envision the load that's printed. Then I use my 20 round box and do this: I think of five different powder weights with that bullet, and I make the printed load, making four rounds with that load. This leaves me four other four round groups. For a .45-70 I will make one group of four with .2 grains more than the printed load. Then I will make up the other three groups of four lighter, each by .2 grains. This leaves me with five different loadings, one of which is the "pet" load of someone else, one load .2 gr more, and then the three others, graduated .2 gains less, each.

I start shooting with the lightest load, using those five position targets. I'll start with the lightest load in the upper left and move around the target, and I will chrony all five loadings, recording the velocity of each round, and then when the shoot of 20 is over, I will compare group size of the five. My information about velocity and group size will give me the load that's best for my rifle. Now, if I don't get pressure signs on the strongest load and my group size is not what I want, I'll make another hotter load of .2 grains more than the hottest, and see how that groups.

Writing about reloading is more fun than working...

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: How do I zero in on a 45-70 load?

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I've rejigged this problem since the original post. I picked up a different gun.

http://www.theliberalgunclub.com/phpBB3 ... =6&t=26050

I'll likely use the NEF 45-70 as a fence post or a cheater bar.

I ordered an indoor light set for the chrony after I shot off the light diffusers in a stunning display of handgunnery. I can look at consistent loads and get a clear idea what's what.

I read through bunches of reloading charts and will start with 3031 because it seemed common in the trapdoor loads.

I might as well approach this in some organized way, isolate variables, empirical focus, blah, blah, blah...
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Puffing up is no substitute for smarts but it's a common home remedy

Re: How do I zero in on a 45-70 load?

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That is a nice looking rolling block, I love the octagon to round barrel and the creedmore sights. Is it heavier than the Nef? I cringed when I saw that light little Nef with a scope on it all I could think of is a split eye brow.
"Hillary Clinton is the finest, bravest, kindest, the most wonderful person I've ever known in my whole life" Raymond Shaw

Re: How do I zero in on a 45-70 load?

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eelj wrote:That is a nice looking rolling block, I love the octagon to round barrel and the creedmore sights. Is it heavier than the Nef? I cringed when I saw that light little Nef with a scope on it all I could think of is a split eye brow.
I haven't weighed the RB but it feels heavier. It has a 28" barrel compared to the other one's 22"

I set the scope far enough to keep it from kissing my forehead. That would be pure tragedy.

This is comedy:
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Puffing up is no substitute for smarts but it's a common home remedy

Re: How do I zero in on a 45-70 load?

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ATXOrangeandBlue wrote:
Simmer down wrote:I'll likely use the NEF 45-70 as a fence post or a cheater bar.
I might be able to find a good home for it...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I paid $300 and it can be yours for $300. Less the scope. That was near $300 by itself.
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Re: How do I zero in on a 45-70 load?

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Elmer Keith had a favorite load for the 45-70. It was a 405 gr. bullet launched with 53 grs. of IMR 3031. Uncle Elmer was not much taller than a Hobbit, I think it affected his thinking when it came to hats as well as guns. I truly miss the old guy every time a read an article in a gun mag and refuse to subscribe to any. Most everybody that has tried the load feel it is only safe in a Ruger no. 1 and they all agree it is as punishing to the shooter as it is to the target. How he was able to shoot such punishing loads over the years is a mystery to me.
"Hillary Clinton is the finest, bravest, kindest, the most wonderful person I've ever known in my whole life" Raymond Shaw

Re: How do I zero in on a 45-70 load?

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msmith1228 wrote:Have you tried Trail Boss?
I haven't. I have most of a lb sitting here but don't use it.

I've read a lot on 45-70 loads since I started this thread. I've also picked up a rolling block that's a lot smoother to shoot. http://www.theliberalgunclub.com/phpBB3 ... t=+numrich

I've stuck to 3013 for a powder due to the frequent mention of it in pet loads I've been reading. These loads are Trapdoor feedings, about 40g of 3013 and 350g plain lead.

When I get around to it I need to really clean up the trigger area to see if I can get rid of some of the yank I have with it to rule out me in poor accuracy.
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Puffing up is no substitute for smarts but it's a common home remedy

Re: How do I zero in on a 45-70 load?

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eelj wrote:Elmer Keith had a favorite load for the 45-70. It was a 405 gr. bullet launched with 53 grs. of IMR 3031. Uncle Elmer was not much taller than a Hobbit, I think it affected his thinking when it came to hats as well as guns. I truly miss the old guy every time a read an article in a gun mag and refuse to subscribe to any. Most everybody that has tried the load feel it is only safe in a Ruger no. 1 and they all agree it is as punishing to the shooter as it is to the target. How he was able to shoot such punishing loads over the years is a mystery to me.
I got the H&R handirifle out today. I had wheel weight bullets and some stinky wax lube off of ebay. They weighed out at 422g, round flat nose. I used 34g of 3031. No flash. I'm a fan of 3031 for older guns because it has less pressure than other powders.

The indoor range has a max of 50 yards and I can barely make out bright pink duct tape on the paper. The sights are simple, pronounced Sheetty. Once I narrowed in what the sight picture should be I could group them from touching to about 4". I think luck and skill were 50/50.

I was surprised these were so consistent. I thought I blew up the barrel at one point because the sound changed dramatically. I have ear plugs on a cord. I think I got the cord under the butt pad. The recoil pulled the plug out and I got a dose of the full sound track in that ear. I did this twice before figuring it out. :?
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Re: How do I zero in on a 45-70 load?

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Tried some new loads today in a Marlin lever gun. I asked around for consistency suggestions and used 4198 powder instead of the low pressure 3031 I use for the old timers.
350 Hornady over 52g 4198.jpg
These are jacketed soft points next to a 22lr case.

I used 52g, which is under the max load.
4570 at 50 yards.jpg
Three shots with open sights at 50 yards. This is sitting with the rifle on a block. I can't make out much more than the sheet at that distance. I find myself rolling the gun to the right and have to catch myself. I need one of those fancy spirit levels.

These loads kicked extreme. I'll need to dial them back. I thought I quit finching years ago but I picked up that habit after one round. I started to shoot another 3 but stopped at one. I might have got air between me and the chair. I loaded them one at a time. I bet the bullets would have shifted under that recoil.

ADDED- I looked at the Hodgdon powder data and there are 2 flavors of 4198, IMR4198 and H4198. I used the IMR4198 max, not the less-than-max H4198. Data says this one will push a 350g @ 2212fps using 52g. That's 3802 ft lbs. :shock:
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Puffing up is no substitute for smarts but it's a common home remedy

Re: How do I zero in on a 45-70 load?

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the story i heard was that 45/70 was not just intended to knock an indian off a horse, but to knock down the horse. afoot, the indian was less of a threat, and horses make easier targets.

not hatin' on indians or horses, that's just the way people thought in those days, much the same as we thought about moros when developing .45acp, and now with insurgents. 5.56 not enough, get the .308. ww1 and 2 were "civilized" :roflmao: wars. the more things change...
i'm retired. what's your excuse?

Re: How do I zero in on a 45-70 load?

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Just like nobody can sight in a rifle for you. ...somebody else's pet load will probably not be the most accurate lod for your rifle.. even if it the exact same make and model.

IMR 4198 and H 4198 are not the same powder.. you cannot substitute the data for one for the other.

Some reloading books describe the rifle used to test the loads published in that book.. make model barrel length some don't.. some reloading books give specific info on type of primer, make of brass, as well as bullet design and powder weight... you cannot substitute cast bullet data and jacketed bullet data.

So start with load data that is somewhat close to your rifle's spec's barrel length is the most important spec .. and as you know from what you have posted so far .. with 45-70 there is old gun data and modern gun data.. make sure you are using the correct chart

Some reloading books give a range of powder weight and some only give the max permissible load. Either start with the lightest published load or 10% less than the max load.

Divide the weights of powder into 6 to 10 equally spaced powder weights ... ie. minimum published is 30 grains and max is 40 grains then 1 grin increments ... max is 35 grains back off 10% starting weight is 31.5 grains .. you break it down into 8 weights .5 grain apart.

You load 5 rounds at each weight between starting weight and max weight.

You shoot the 5 rounds at each powder weight at it's own target and you label that target as to powder charge bullet weight date . This is important you inspect the brass for any over pressure signs, even the first and lightest powder weight before you move on to the next higher powder weight http://www.massreloading.com/reading_pr ... signs.html if you see pressure signs YOU DO NOT SHOOT A HEAVIER CHARGE you stop shooting

You continue shooting each group of 5 into it's own target inspect for pressure label target until you run out of loads or see pressure signs.

You then take each target and lay them out on a table lowest to highest powder weight in order.

Examine the groups .. you will notice they will either get larger then smaller of smaller then larger.. and you may also notice the point of impact/ center of the group may move around on each target... this is because different powder loads will change the rifles barrels harmonics and different velocities will affect the speed of rotation of the bullet. .. You may see the groups get larger then smaller again .. with 45-70 I would go with the smallest group with the lightest charge :D if you have to choose between two equally small groups. that would be your roughly most accurate load.... but that will only be true to the extent that you use Identical components and powder... change you brand of primer .. you got to start all over .. some buy powder in the 8 pound jugs and when they start a new jug they go thru the whole rigmarole all over again .. but definitely if you change brand or style of bullet ( even if you keep the weight the same) or brand or type of primer.

Okay now.. if for some reason you need extreme or maximum accuracy .. long distance shooting or competition .. hunting ... or if you just happen to be a very accurate shooter to start with, and want the most from your weapon

You do a second round of test loads using the weight of powder you used in the target before you smallest group target and go in 0.1 grain increments up to the powder weight used in the target right after the target with the smallest group shoot those in sequence lowest to high and apply the same analysis .. if you are going to do the second round for max accuracy... then any time you change any component you really should start over .. consistency is accuracy when it comes to reloading. Folks who are going for max accuracy also as a minimum sort their bullets by weight and only use bullets closely matched by weight for any serious work. Some also sort their brass by weight.. I don't do that.. I do use all the same brand of brass for accuracy work.

I sort bullets into three groups, first I sort completely by weight 0.1 grain increments .. I usually get a long line of bullets across the table with identical weight lined up one behind the other vertically .. I make a reasonable decision and cull out the very lightest and very heaviest bullets .. it's a judgement call.. there is normally some resemblance to a bell curve weight wise and how picky I am depends if there will be money involved.. either prize money or side bets ... if it just beers, I'm less picky also depends who I am shooting against or how badly my ego needs strokes.

Hope this helps.. if anything is not clear, please ask questions, and I will do my best to clarify .



if you see pressure signs YOU DO NOT SHOOT A HEAVIER CHARGE you stop shooting

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