Analysis Paralysis: Reloaded

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see what I did there?

OK loaders,

As my previous AP threads have proven I am generally a dude who likes to think things through.

A lot.

Sometimes too much.

Sometimes that helps, because I can (and will) tell you about all the things that can go wrong with your proposed system architecture or whatever doofy organizational changes the upper management had decided on this quarter (as my boss would no doubt tell you.)

But that works best for things I know something about, and my knowledge of blowing stuff up in order to launch stuff at other stuff (please excuse the highly technical vocabulary) is somewhat limited. So I'm going to do a brain-dump of my current thinking and ask you all to double-check me, point out any missed/erroneous assumptions I have, and answer the same damn questions every new reloader has.

The Mission Statement
Primary Goal: Shoot more without increasing the ammo budget.
Secondary Goals: Accuracy and Experimentation

Important Parameters
Starting with .38/.357 on the following assumptions: straight-walled cartridges are simpler to learn on, revolvers are very forgiving, and it would take a truly massive cockup to kaboom a Ruger.

Next caliber would be 9mm. .45 ACP is virtually certain for the future.

There are no definite plans for rifle calibers.

Yet.

Pressing Questions
Common wisdom says "start with a single stage". They are inexpensive and they make you focus on one step at a time so they are great for learning on. They handle all calibers and produce the most consistent results but they are also the slowest.

PP wisdom say: I am the special kind of lazy that will do more work to automate something than it would actually require to do it manually, just so I don't have to do it again. I don't mind tinkering stuff to get it set up, but once it is set up I don't want to have to keep messing with it unless I want to change something.

I think swapping dies for every stage would annoy the crap out of me and I would be less likely to reload, so I am not sure I want to go single stage. But, progressives are big and expensive and I am not sure I want to dump that much money into it.

Based on those observations, I am strongly looking at the Lee Classic Turret (this is the cast iron one, not the aluminum). I can operate it like a single-stage while I am learning or working up a load and then enable the auto indexing when I want to put out a bunch of identical rounds. It has removable turrets so I can leave stuff set up for one caliber when I swap to another, and I don't have to change individual dies. Jumping from most single stages to this is a very small change price wise and is probably worth it where the jump from this to a progressive would not be.

Kit of Goat?
A lot of people say "don't get the kit, you'll replace the stuff in it anyway." Is that true in this case? Here's what's in the kit:

Turret Press with Auto Index
Pro Auto Disk Powder Measure
Large and Small Safety Prime System
Safety Powder Scale
Case Conditioning Kit (Including: Case Trimmer Cutter and Lock Stud, Chamfer Tool, Large and Small Primer Pocket Cleaner, Lee Case Sizing Lube)
Modern Reloading 2nd Edition, Revised Reloading Manual

The powder measure and safety prime seem like they'd be what I would wind up getting anyway, and I'm going to need a second reloading manual (at least), so the main potential replacement items would be the Case Conditioning Kit (which I would not be using for pistol) and the scale…but that scale is supposed to be accurate to .05 grain which seems pretty good.

Are there any substitutions you'd make, or just additions? I know l'll also need dies, calipers, bullet puller, plus of course the consumables and cases.

Re: Analysis Paralysis: Reloaded

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Get a copy of Lyman's 49th first. Read it. Read it again.

Then buy your gear. I still like my single stage but that Lee turret is supposed to be very good. Enjoy it.

.38/.357 is a good one to start with. Simple & straight forward with lots of room for everything from wadcutter puffballs to screaming 125 gr magnum loads with 158 gr FBI somewhere in between.
Live like you will never die, love like you've never been hurt, dance
like no-one is watching.
Alex White

Re: Analysis Paralysis: Reloaded

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wlewisiii wrote:Get a copy of Lyman's 49th first. Read it. Read it again.
Thanks! I have done this. It's one of the ways I got this far.

:hmmm:

I suppose I could have mentioned that, instead of expecting people to connect my vague reference to a "second manual" with the pictures I posted in another thread that had the 49th lurking out of focus in the background.

Man, it's like you people have something better to do than obsessively pore over every detail of my posts with the tenacious curiosity of a fan picking apart the latest J.J. Abrams show.

Re: Analysis Paralysis: Reloaded

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As far as press systems go you can start out with anything you want, I always tell people too start out with a single stage for the simple reason that no matter what you buy you will eventually buy a single stage. Might just as well get one right off the bat. Do not think that it's hard to blow up a Ruger, I've seen plenty of pictures of Rugers with the top of the cylinder gone.
"Hillary Clinton is the finest, bravest, kindest, the most wonderful person I've ever known in my whole life" Raymond Shaw

Re: Analysis Paralysis: Reloaded

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I went through the same quandary last year, and have the same brand of lazy. I wound up with both the lee single stage and the Pro-1000. I kicked around the idea of the turret, and I'm still not convinced I went the right way, but both the presses I have have been great- I use the Pro-1000 for my 9mm pistol loading, and the single stage usually for everything else, as it's a pain to convert it to run my 223 and 7.62x39, but I have used it for that as well and it performs well.

I think the turret is a good option, because like you mentioned, you can run it in in single stage mode, but don't have to fiddle with the dies on each change.

All personal preference. But having a single stage or being able to use it in single stage is definitely valuable, beginner or advanced reloader.
“Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.”
- Maya Angelou

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Re: Analysis Paralysis: Reloaded

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shinzen wrote:But having a single stage or being able to use it in single stage is definitely valuable, beginner or advanced reloader.
My feelings. I started with a progressive. Learning curve was steep. But I finally snagged a Lee Classic single off ebay, too. Using the heck out of it for depriming
eelj wrote:As far as press systems go you can start out with anything you want, I always tell people too start out with a single stage for the simple reason that no matter what you buy you will eventually buy a single stage.
Truer words…
PP wrote:has removable turrets so I can leave stuff set up for one caliber when I swap to another, and I don't have to change individual dies.
HPIM2145.JPG
I have Dillon toolheads set up but only the single Dillon powder drop, the other drops are RCBS with the Hornady Case activated linkage on them. Works for me and doesn't cost like Dillon OEM. Saves me aggravation but not much. Once I start reloading I try to do 3-400 bullets.

I didn't see calipers in your list
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Re: Analysis Paralysis: Reloaded

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Seems a lot of Lee fans, so I might be sticking my neck out on this one...

I settled on the Hornady Lock-n-Load http://www.hornady.com/store/Lock-N-Load-AP.
  1. I wanted a Progressive setup.
  2. You buy a set of bushings for each die, setup the dies, and then unlock the bushings, w/out needing to recalibrate the dies. I like this feature a lot. Though doing that w/ the powder dispenser would get pretty expensive, so I recalibrate and tripple check that at the start of each session.
  3. They make bushings for other mfg's dies.
  4. The kids like watching the brass go round and round ... it is like watching pop-corn pop really.. did I mention I like watching the brass go round and round as well?
  5. The gee-wiz accesories you can get for this thing (and one day I might actually have some) like auto-feeders for the bullets and cases.
Let us make a special effort to stop communicating with each other, so we can have some conversation. -- Samuel L. Clemens

Re: Analysis Paralysis: Reloaded

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major wrote:Seems a lot of Lee fans, so I might be sticking my neck out on this one...

I settled on the Hornady Lock-n-Load http://www.hornady.com/store/Lock-N-Load-AP.
  1. I wanted a Progressive setup.
  2. You buy a set of bushings for each die, setup the dies, and then unlock the bushings, w/out needing to recalibrate the dies. I like this feature a lot. Though doing that w/ the powder dispenser would get pretty expensive, so I recalibrate and tripple check that at the start of each session.
  3. They make bushings for other mfg's dies.
  4. The kids like watching the brass go round and round ... it is like watching pop-corn pop really.. did I mention I like watching the brass go round and round as well?
  5. The gee-wiz accesories you can get for this thing (and one day I might actually have some) like auto-feeders for the bullets and cases.
I have the Hornady and really like it. I ended up getting the single-stage version later (bushings are compatible). Like any machine it has its quirks but I've been very pleased with both the build quality and the attention to detail in the design itself. I also like Hornady's reloading manual.

Re: Analysis Paralysis: Reloaded

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No Hornady bashing here. It gets good reviews, and is more reasonably priced than the Dillons. I was willing to work through the Lee quirks to save some money. My next press will likely be the Hornady or Dillon 550- when my current progressive burns out on me or I fall into money.
“Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.”
- Maya Angelou

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Re: Analysis Paralysis: Reloaded

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shinzen wrote:No Hornady bashing here. It gets good reviews, and is more reasonably priced than the Dillons. I was willing to work through the Lee quirks to save some money. My next press will likely be the Hornady or Dillon 550- when my current progressive burns out on me or I fall into money.
The hard-core reloaders I've known don't burn out their press, they just end up buying -more- presses because it's just too much of a pain in the butt to change over between calibers. That way lies madness... or bankruptcy. :D

Re: Analysis Paralysis: Reloaded

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swissdog wrote: The hard-core reloaders I've known don't burn out their press, they just end up buying -more- presses because it's just too much of a pain in the butt to change over between calibers. That way lies madness... or bankruptcy. :D
As much as I hate to admit it, the idea has popped into my head more than once. "But I need to be able to crank out 223 and 762 without screwing with the press!" Fortunately I keep telling myself that I don't have the space. :smart:
“Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.”
- Maya Angelou

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Re: Analysis Paralysis: Reloaded

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shinzen wrote:
swissdog wrote: The hard-core reloaders I've known don't burn out their press, they just end up buying -more- presses because it's just too much of a pain in the butt to change over between calibers. That way lies madness... or bankruptcy. :D
As much as I hate to admit it, the idea has popped into my head more than once. "But I need to be able to crank out 223 and 762 without screwing with the press!" Fortunately I keep telling myself that I don't have the space. :smart:
Until - next thing you know - you find yourself thinking "Y'know... if I reinforced that kitchen table I could clamp another press on there..." and then buying a whole new house with a bigger reloading room suddenly doesn't seem all that unreasonable.

Re: Analysis Paralysis: Reloaded

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Observation - ANY cartridge designed for black powder can be double loaded. Easy to do on .38Spl, .44Spl., harder on smaller cartridges impossible on short auto cartridges.

.38Spl is the one I really watch for this. .380 I barely pay attention, double loading it will result in a full case with no room for a bullet, and a pile of smokeless on the table.
When only cops have guns, it's called a police state.
I carry due to toxic masculinity.......just other people's.

Re: Analysis Paralysis: Reloaded

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I started reloading about 8 months ago and got the lee single stage kit and have no complaints, I still use what came with the kit, and it seems to work well. I actually like the single stage, it doesn't seem like any more work to me, it's just a little slower, which I don't mind.
For all the compasses in all the world, there is but one direction and time is its only measure. -- Tom Stoppard
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Re: Analysis Paralysis: Reloaded

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I use a turret press and it's about twice as fast as a single-stage press, but still slower than a progressive.

I don't like the sloppiness of the Lee (had one many years ago), and loaded on a single stage for years. I recently went back to a turret press, but this time a Redding T-7. It's a big massive thing, and produces great ammo. Very tight tolerances... Quality press. It will certainly outlast me.
We live at a time when emotions and feelings count more than truth,
and there is a vast ignorance of science.
James Lovelock

It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument.
-William G. McAdoo, lawyer and politician (1863-1941)

Re: Analysis Paralysis: Reloaded

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PiratePenguin, I would *strongly* advise you to avoid a progressive press right off the bat. I'm one of those who espouses the "learn how to reload first" and the "crawl before you run" mindsets. It's actually saved me from some bad things a few times. One was a double-charge, and the other was a box full of squibs. Either way, not good.

You have the same "special kind of lazy" that I do. See, as an engineer, I want things to be as efficient as possible, too. If there's a way to automate something that I'm good at, guess what, it's gettin' automated. The key here is, "good at". There's no substitute for learning and actually understanding what you're doing, and I teach this with both reloading and information technology. My students go bats when I insist on the old-school way sometimes. Three years later, they're writing thank-you letters 'cause their fundamentals are strong and it just saved their ass in a crunch.

So, I would definitely recommend starting on a cheapie $30 single-stage press. Learn, really learn, what you're doing. Much as I like reloading, let's not kid ourselves; this can mean life or death. Then, once you get pretty good, get a Lee Classic Turret Press and have fun.
"SF Liberal With A Gun + Free Software Advocate"
http://www.sanfranciscoliberalwithagun.com/
http://www.liberalsguncorner.com/
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Re: Analysis Paralysis: Reloaded

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To be fair T, with the turret press (or even a progressive) You can use them as a non progressive to get the process down. I definitely did not run my pro-1000 in full progressive mode for a few months. Nothing wrong with doing one step at a time, if you have the discipline to do so. You'll still want the single stage though anyway, so may as well start there. My $30 lee does just fine. And T's videos were enormously helpful. Watch them.
“Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.”
- Maya Angelou

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Re: Analysis Paralysis: Reloaded

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CowboyT wrote:So, I would definitely recommend starting on a cheapie $30 single-stage press. Learn, really learn, what you're doing. Much as I like reloading, let's not kid ourselves; this can mean life or death. Then, once you get pretty good, get a Lee Classic Turret Press and have fun.
Ok, dumb question time then: what's the benefit of an actual single stage over taking the auto-indexing rod out of the Lee press and running batches as if it were a single-stage while I'm learning? The latter is my plan, but if there's a good reason not to do it that way, well, that's why I started the thread…

Re: Analysis Paralysis: Reloaded

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You can do it either way. The single-stage simply forces you to learn it "old school", which I consider a good thing. If you should go with the turret, then I'd suggest picking up a hand primer and learning how to do that. You want to learn proper primer feel. I suggest foregoing a powder measure for your first box of ammo; get in the habit of weighing the charges (I'm pretty fast at this by now) and learn your scale. Run your finger over the bottom of each round to make sure the primers feels like it's seated just an eensy-bit lower than the case head.

And remember: this is not a race. Since I was paranoid and didn't know what I was doing, it took me somewhere between 4 and 5 hours to make my first box of 50. Went and shot it, and all was well. Next box took an hour and a half. After that, I continued to get faster, not because I was rushing, but because I had a lot more confidence in what to do and how to do it.

As for changing the die on a single-stage, remember, you'll be doing this in batches. For example, if you have 100 cases, you'll first deprime/resize all 100 your cases, then reprime 'em all, then drop your powder charge in 'em all, then seat your 100 bullets. You change your die only when moving to the next batch, so you'll change it a grand total of 3 times, including the initial die screw-in.
"SF Liberal With A Gun + Free Software Advocate"
http://www.sanfranciscoliberalwithagun.com/
http://www.liberalsguncorner.com/
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Re: Analysis Paralysis: Reloaded

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Also worth noting, the die will not need to be re-set each time if you use the set screws (Lee's dies use a rubber o-ring instead) which keeps them in the same place that you left them. Do a quick check to verify they are set correctly still, and it's a 30 second to a minute swap out. But if you load the turret press in single stage mode, the outcome is the same.
“Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.”
- Maya Angelou

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