Titewad

1
I'm trying to develop a more powerful .32acp load, and frankly having no success. It's interesting working with tiny volumes and tiny bullets, but things can get out of hand very quickly in such a scenario and overpressures come very quickly and easily and even though I have a very strong gun for development, I want to someday be able to carry a P32 or similar mouse gun using the data I'm developing.

I tried Bullseye, Power Pistol and Unique and although I can load rounds easily hitting over 200 ft/lbs, 2 things are a problem.

One I am overpressure, seriously. Enough that the brass bulges at the (admittedly large) extractor cutout to the point I think I'm shooting a Glock.

Two I get great energies from heavier (85gr +) bullets, but still don't get anywhere near the same energies from the 71gr or 60gr bullets that should be the standard loading for the caliber.

After doing some investigation, I decided even Bullseye was too slow in this case. I needed faster.

Looking at as many burn rate charts as I could find, despite the general lack of agreement I find Titewad near the top, and at the top on several. Hmmmm. Alliant's fast powder, other than Bullseye is Red Dot and it lists no Red Dot loads for the this round, and Titewad is only listed as target load for several large calibers like 45scp. SO, it would best to assume the producer knows best and there's no good application for these products in this caliber....

Fuck that. Both of these companies have more expensive less efficient powders they's like to sell as well. SO find out for myself.

Ok there's rumors, unconfirmed about spikey behavior, SO lets load this stuff using Mag primers and see if we can induce a little weird behavior.

Ok it's a target load, so 3.2gr behind a 148gr wadcutter in a .38 case should give us some idea of how it behaves. Shooting it, hmmm 788fps average.... try 3.5 gr. and get 800, almost the same. Probably near the limit for that caliber with it, but nicely in .38 standard energies range. seems a easy target load would be less than 3 gr.

So starting with 1.8gr and 60gr bullets in the .32, start edging up looking for pressure. I have a large extractor cutout to help monitor, and to make it more sensitive, reuse previously bulged brass and don't forget the mag primers.

I got to 2.4gr, no brass bulging even using the previously weakened brass and mag primers. Whoa.... I was shooting 71gr FMJ and 60gr JHP, and both got to the same 142 ft/lb level. Next is push to find the limits, or 175ft/lbs whichever comes first. At 2.1gr I had thrown so 90gr JHPs in the mix, and they were dismally slow and had energies on par to the light loads, so I'm liking the linearity and lack of surprises.

SO it's pretty interesting given the huge difference in the case volumes....
When only cops have guns, it's called a police state.
I carry due to toxic masculinity.......just other people's.

Re: Titewad

2
What gun are you using for these tests?

I use titegroup for my elderly guns. Pressures are less compared to other powders. The Hodgdon site shows it at #14 for fastest, titewad is #6.
Image
Image
Image

Puffing up is no substitute for smarts but it's a common home remedy

Re: Titewad

3
An FEG AP7.65, which is a PA-63 in 32ACP. Has the same barrel thickness as the PA (which is a 9mm Mak), just way thicker walls in barrel and chamber.

Yea Hodgdon thinks it's not very fast, but Vihtavuori lists it fastest, even faster than the old Norma R1.
When only cops have guns, it's called a police state.
I carry due to toxic masculinity.......just other people's.

Re: Titewad

5
Yea after this I have a bunch of 32H&R brass waiting. I'll keep posting it. Since I have the .38 figures already extrapolating from the .32acp figures should be easy. I'm thinking this stuff might be a great .32 powder.

Here's my string for the 71grFMJ using 2.4gr of Titewad:

937, 954, 949, 970, 956fps.

Holy shit. Might be a fluke, but holy shit.
When only cops have guns, it's called a police state.
I carry due to toxic masculinity.......just other people's.

Re: Titewad

6
Tried the new batch, expanded the horizon to include .32H&R and .380. .380 and .32acp have astonishingly damn near the same case volume and I'm using all fmj bullets which standard case volumes are calculated from so this should work.

When I was doing this the first couple of batches were sitting in bright sunshine and the ammo got literally hot to the touch. I was hurrying to get this done as a thunderstorm was rumbling in the background (don't ask, it's Michigan) so I wasn't watching. Later batches got put in whatever shade I could find. Later it clouded over, and the lightning struck with the last round being fired, followed by a mad scramble to get ammo and electronics under cover.

I tried two loading of .380, 2.7gr and 3.1gr. The 2.7gr was loaded while hot to the touch, 5 string average was 983fps out of a 4" barrel. The 3.1gr was not hot when loaded and averaged 982fps - looka that... However looking at the cases after firing, some had some very small distortion at the ejector opening area, and some had none. As thin as .380 cases are, I'd say neither were over pressure yet. Energies are 214ft/lbs, pretty nice for a .380 loading.

So on to .32acp. At 2.7gr of Titewad with hot to the touch ammo, averages were 1128fps. Using 3.0gr and not hot ammo averages were 1197fps. I've fired very hot loads using other powders, and my impression was the recoil was less than the other powders. Both of these loads are over what I'm targeting, the 3.0 load is 226ft/lbs, way too much and dangerous I'm sure in some guns, but the FEG functions fine with it. The case distortion in the ejector area was present heavily with the larger load, much less so with the 2.7gr load. The .27gr load is right at 200ft/lbs. I'm going to try working just a little under this to try to get to the 175ft/lb I'm looking for. the 3.0 load had a lot worse deviation, the 2.7gr much less deviation, but the 2.4gr previously has a much tighter spread, so everything is pushing the search towards that loading.

Lastly I tried three loadings in .32H&R. This was shot last, and overhead there was a lot of turbulence in the cloud I'm using for a backdrop - had to remove the sunshades from the chrono as things were getting dark. Getting a solid reading was getting difficult so the data is a little sketchy.

I approached this with the idea of bumping the the round OAL length down in each batch while just moving the load of the powder a little. What I was trying to find was the sensitivity of the powder to increased pressure by reducing the volume of the case. The bullets were 83gr hollow base wadcutters.

First load was 3.1gr with an overall length of 1.25". Average was 897ft/lbs, nice and low so we aren't pushing any limits here.
Second load was 3.2gr with a length of 1.20". Average was 981ft/lbs, a pretty healthy jump kind of indicating this powder likes a little pressure.
Third load was 3.3gr and a length of 1.15". Average was 994ft/lbs, so we got the limit out of the powder at this loading.

More to come, the .32H&R needs some more work but it seems for a nice target load 3.0gr might do for completely inserted wadcutters. Even at 1.15" lengths there's still .04" left outside the case.
Last edited by Antiquus on Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
When only cops have guns, it's called a police state.
I carry due to toxic masculinity.......just other people's.

Re: Titewad

8
For comparison purposes, I presume you have looked at Buffalo Bore´s 32 ACP +P load? That´s what I bought when I carried a HSc.
Live like you will never die, love like you've never been hurt, dance
like no-one is watching.
Alex White

Re: Titewad

9
I know it exists, and although they advertise their +P ammo at 1150fps and 220 ft/lbs, the only actual data they post is for several short barrel guns the longest being 3" and showing 170ft/lbs. So pretty much where I want to end up. As I stated above, back in the day it was the European police loading, and it was pretty effective.

Also at a $1.30 a round, I'd love to load it for $.18.
When only cops have guns, it's called a police state.
I carry due to toxic masculinity.......just other people's.

Re: Titewad

10
Moar adventures in load development.

I keep changing things, which adds some noise to the data, but I still think I'm on to something.

First change was I added another gun to the .32acp mix, a CZ70 I got too cheap on GunBroker, and it's a sweetie. The other change was adding additional bullets to the mix, in the form of the classic .32acp lead 76gr, this one flat nosed.

Back to TightWad, and I have to say this is a clean powder. after 20 rounds, one patch through the barrel and I quit, it's clean enough.

So loading the cast 76gr. at 2.4gr of TightWad, I got a 5 string average of 1180fps and 235ft/lbs out of the CZ - wow - but no signs of overpressure at all. Tried the same load in the FEG with the huge extractor gap in the chamber - about .15" around the circumference and .10" deep - right in the high pressure area and - nothing, no brass distortion at all. brass looks the same out of either gun.... So it's probably too high a pressure, but I think it's safe, and a little over what BB sells. I'm still going to reduce it some, but this is a good lesson in cast vs. jacketed behavior.

I tried a jacketed 60gr hp using 2.6gr and got 1250fps and 210ft/lbs out of the CZ, also a little too hot but no signs of overpressure. This one I'm also reducing a little for the next go round.

I'm also thinking bullets are damned important. these two bullets were nearly as fast as earlier attempts using more power and heavier or fmj bullets, but the cases are showing far less pressure effects. So a very light JHP and a medium weight cast are easy to get moving, meaning lower pressure in the gun.

The real treat was the .380 loading. Using 3.0gr of TightWad and a 90gr Sierra JHP. In other loadings of this bullet it was constantly posted using higher powder loadings, apparently it's a hard lead and a little difficult to get moving. Out of the 4" barrel of my FEG AP9, it averaged 1145fps and 260ft/lbs. 30ft/lbs less than BB is claiming for their +P loading, but it doesn't feel bad at all, muzzle flip isn't large and it's not shocking my wrist or hand, in fact it felt damn comfortable. I tried the same round in my LCP - 3" of barrel and 11oz of weight - and it not only performed well (right at 1000fps and 200ft/lbs) but wasn't any worse to shoot than WWB. I tried the same load with a 100gr plated ball and got nearly identical energies out of it. Being plated it might be a little easier to move than a FMJ, they are supposed to be in between cast and jacketed in behavior.

In any event I'm getting close with the .32 and I'm done with the .380 pretty satisfied there. I'll use something like 2.7gr for range fodder for the .380.
When only cops have guns, it's called a police state.
I carry due to toxic masculinity.......just other people's.

Re: Titewad

11
Final post about where this ended up, what I learned to do and not do.

SAAMI lists the .32acp as having a maximum pressure around 20.5kpsi. CIP lists it at 23.2kpsi, which explains why Euro ammo is hotter, although even the Euro makers like Fiocchi who sell here tend to download to SAAMI specs, one lawsuit can ruin your day. These are what SAAMI refers to as Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) values. The gun could be expected to withstand the Maximum Probable Sample Mean (MPSM) pressure of 22.1kpsi for SAAMI or 26.7kpsi for the CIP data.

At the annual meeting with Simmerdown helping with the data I shot what I thought was my final trial loads. Using 2.2gr of Titewad behind a 76gr cast LFN bullet, which feeds in both my guns very well, I got an average of 1038fps for 182ft/lbs of energy. This was exactly what I originally started looking for, the old Euro cop loading around 185ft/lbs and I believe it was done with a 76 or 77 grain cast bullet. As a bonus, this is exactly the bullet and very close to the loading Buffalo Bore is is selling as "+P" .32acp at $1.30 a round. My other load was a 60grJHP and 2.4gr of Titewad, ending up at 1127fps and 169ft/lbs, close enough and way over the WWB standard of 870fps and 120ft/lbs.

http://kwk.us/powley.html is a Powley calculator, something I learned to do and it calculates internal pressures in the cartridge. Setting up the data for my loads and velocities Powley calculates the internal pressure at 23.4kCUP (copper units of pressure). Now a CUP as you can read over and over is not the same as psi. But it's damn close and before the 1970's it was considered the same, which is why it is often used interchangeably. For light pressures such as these (under 30kpsi) the difference is a bit to the right of the decimal so I'm ignoring it. For a neat detailed explanation read this: https://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf

At any rate the 2.2gr 76gr bullet load at 23.4kCUP is right on the money, the CIP pressure was 23.2kpsi. The 2.4gr 60gr load is pretty amazingly 21.8kCUP so a slight bump might be possible, but at 1127fps it's going fast enough to insure a JHP opening up unless plugged, so good enough.

What I would do differently. I picked a good caliber to make mistakes on, as the total energies were small and the guns I used were built to take higher pressures. Although it wasn't until later I found out the guns were proofed at 30.2kpsi, next time I will find out first. I did start out very small, but I was using .3gr bumps, not being cautious enough with the tiny case volume I was using. In these tiny cases, things change dramatically and quickly.

During testing I shot one batch that had been too long in the sun and were hot, and the data was still consistent to itself, but not consistent to any other set of data data before or since. That lead me astray about loadings, and resulted in a batch of fairly high pressure tests, but using my hillbilly rule of thumb about case distortion out of my FEG, I was already reducing loads after that. It turned out that distortion showed up way before any pressure approached the proof level of the guns, not exactly dumb luck but I was lucky to have another reference. However, the lesson learned is consistency is important in not only loading but in the testing conditions as well, don't test hot or probably excessively cold ammo.
Last edited by Antiquus on Sat Nov 01, 2014 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
When only cops have guns, it's called a police state.
I carry due to toxic masculinity.......just other people's.

Re: Titewad

12
Antiquus wrote: During testing I shot one batch that had been too long in the sun and were hot, and the data was still consistent to itself, but not consistent to any other set of data data before or since.
Everything is hot here in Texas so walk us through that again about the effect of heat on ammo, por favor.
Image
Image
Image

Puffing up is no substitute for smarts but it's a common home remedy

Re: Titewad

13
Simmer down wrote:
Antiquus wrote: During testing I shot one batch that had been too long in the sun and were hot, and the data was still consistent to itself, but not consistent to any other set of data data before or since.
Everything is hot here in Texas so walk us through that again about the effect of heat on ammo, por favor.
Well, the ammo was too hot to hold in your hand, so something north of 140°F. And the gun was not. The results from that batch, which I had expected to be high because of the heating was unusually low, like 100fps low. So I adjusted loading according to these results and found myself shooting at 100fps higher than expected the next lot.

Edit - I remember now reading the military standard for ammunition quality for .308, they specified the environmental conditions the batch was to be shot at.
When only cops have guns, it's called a police state.
I carry due to toxic masculinity.......just other people's.

Re: Titewad

14
I think most powders are affected by temperature extremes, some more then others, Blue Dot is famous for screwing up a cold day. Another thing to consider is that lubed cast bullets can have the lube melt and contaminate the powder when the ammo is left in the sun to long. Interesting thread, powder used in those little cases makes a lb go a long way.
"Hillary Clinton is the finest, bravest, kindest, the most wonderful person I've ever known in my whole life" Raymond Shaw

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 2 guests