Reloading for Garand follies

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Another beautiful day, which luckily happens to be a short work day. And that means some time for the range.

I was testing my first batch of 30-06 reloads for my CMP M1 Garand. Loaded up 47.0gr to 50.0 gr IMR 4064. 147 gr FMJ BT, overal length of 3.3" . According to Hodgdon, the range for 150gr noslers is from 47.0 - 51.0 gr with the same overall length of 3.3" .

Gleeful as I was, the garand shooting was marked with... failure. Lots of 'em. I'm trying to figure out what may be causing it.

So what I did was load up 5 rounds of 47.0, the 5 of 47.5 , like that in .5 gr increments up to 50.0 grains. I don't actually have 5 round clips, only the normal 8 round en-bloc. What I did was stick an empty enblock in first, then load up 5 rounds, and push down on the clip + rounds and slowly let the bolt go forward. It seems to lock the clip in while chambering the first round.

I had many failures to feed. A round fires, bolt cycles and it might catch the next round, but more often than not it failed to do catch the next round, so then hammer falls and nothing. At first I thought it might be that the current charge I was testing was too low. However, even as I stepped up to 49.5 grains, it was still having this failure to feed. I even tried loading up just one round at a time to see if the last round would eject the en-bloc -- that only happened once. Most times it did not hold the bolt open.

The worst part of this is after a failure to feed, the bolt would go forward (without picking up a round) and nearly lock up. It wasn't really locked, but tight enough that I had to use tremendous force on the handle to get it to open back up. After a while of this it got a bit frustrating, so I just packed up my garand and went to the pistol range without even going through all my reloads.

I'm wondering what may have happened. Was it indeed a light charge , even at 49.5 gr? 147gr FMJ is different from the 150gr bullet as referenced by Hodgdon, but I can't imagine it'd be all THAT different (Can it?). Or is it the way I loaded it up, not using the 5 round clip. I wouldn't think that would matter, but it's the only other difference, as I always have shot it with a full 8 round clip before.

Re: Reloading for Garand follies

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Well, I did trim the cases before I reloaded them... though I only trimmed the long ones enough to make sure they would fit through a case gauge (and thus theoretically chamber). They may fit, but they're not all uniform though.

Dangit... 50.0 is the ticket. That was the group I didn't test today haha. Maybe I'll make up three more 50 grains to test next time, and just pull the rest.

Re: Reloading for Garand follies

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The locking up is what sounds weird to me. When it was locked up, was the bolt fully forward?

What happens if you load full enbloc and manually cycle the action until the clip is empty?
How about your cases? Too fat? Not sized right?

Is the chamber clean?

Do you have known good ammo to try a full clip's worth? That should really narrow things down.
Hell is where:
The British are the chefs
The Swiss are the lovers
The French are the mechanics
The Italians make everything run on time
And the Germans are the police

Re: Reloading for Garand follies

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How bizarre. If you're using a case gauge, I'm disinclined to think that you have a trimming or sizing problem. 47 should still properly cycle, and I have had good luck with the 50.0 of 4064 and 147gr bullets. But. I never tried loading batches of 5 with the Garand. Just went to batches of 8 to keep it simple. I'm personally a bit suspect of the loading method.
“Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.”
- Maya Angelou

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Re: Reloading for Garand follies

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I would start with a full clip of known-good factory ammo to ensure it's capable of functioning properly in the first place.

If it does, then the issue is either your handloads or the way your loading the rifle. As suggested by others, either use dummy cartridges to fill up the clip or load batches of 8 rounds so you're working with fully-loaded clips.

As for case length issues...I make it a point to start with all my brass full-length resized and then trimmed to the "trim to" length in the loading manual. I check the length after every use and once a batch reaches maximum length according to the manual, I trim it back down to the minimum trim-to length. I seldom keep bottleneck rifle brass past the point where it requires a third trimming. At that point, neck brass thickness and a stretch ring just above the web at the base become issues. A case head separation is a huge PITA.

Re: Reloading for Garand follies

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Thanks for the recommendations guys.

To fill in a bit of more information, when the bolt locked up, it was indeed fully forward. I'll comment a little bit more about this at the end.
For these reloads (and all my rifle reloads) I full length resize them, and then test in a lyman case length gauge. Anything too long I trim, anything too short or doesn't fit, I toss. So they're tot uniform, but should be all within Lyman gauge spec. For yesterday, prior to testing the reloads I did run 3 full clips of Greek surplus ammo, all 100% fine.

I think in my next Garand session, I will definitely do batches of 8 instead of 5. I'll probably do a batch at 50 gr since that's the magic number, and maybe another 8 at +/- 0.5 gr

So after thinking about this, I am suspecting it's the way I was loading the clip and rounds into the garand. Probably something was not making the clip seat well, or perhaps the rounds were not fully near the rear of the clip, whatever the case the bolt was not stripping the next round into the chamber after cycling. It could very well be that the clip itself wasn't locked down, so that after cycling (And failing to chamber a round) the clip is still pushing up against the bolt and thus causing it to lock up.

I guess a good way to test this is load up 5 rounds like I did with Greek surplus ammo. If it fails with that, then I know you're not supposed to load a Garand up that way =).

Re: Reloading for Garand follies

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You can do a loading with two rounds, but it's wonky. It involves inserting the rounds into the clip and twistin them, then inserting the whole thing into the rifle where the follower straightens them out- not like the process described above at all.

There are also clips you can order that are designed for either 2 or 5 rounds that are for competition or hunting- I have no experience with them though.
“Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.”
- Maya Angelou

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Re: Reloading for Garand follies

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I have some of the limited capacity clips and haven't had great luck with them. The big problem seems to be the coating in them. It's thick and abrasive to the extent the clips won't latch or eject properly. I've not used 4064. I started mine with 47 gr of imr4895 and have yet to feel the need to change that. I'd suggest assembling 8 dummy rounds, load them in a clip you know works properly, and cycle the gun as if you were shooting it.

I'm told that as a training exercise back in the day, recruits would load dummy rounds in megs, and dry fire the gun with a buddy standing beside them shoving the bolt handle to simulate a live round cycling the bolt. a CMP gun should work. I wouldn't try short loading mags until you get the gun working, though.
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the cause, and misapplying the wrong remedies. Marx (Groucho Marx)

Re: Reloading for Garand follies

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Here's an update after this morning's (short) range session. Here's what I shot, the order, and the result

1) 1 clip (8 rounds) Greek surplus ammo. Result: Good, no failures
2) 1 clip "precise" reloads. 50.0 gr 4064, 147 gr FMJ BT, OAL 3.3". I measured each round to ensure it was less than +/- .1 gr from 50.0 Result: good, no failures
3) 1 clip "unprecise" reloads. Same bullet and powder specs as above, except I did not measure each round, I just pulled the measure lever down from the above settings. Because of the difficult-to-meter nature of 4064, these are probably +/- 0.3 grains from 50.0. Result: 2 shots, 2 failures to cycle. Same "locking" symptom that I encountered the last time. I had to use a case full of 45 ACP to use as a hammer to knock the bolt out of unlock position. After the 2 shots, I did not continue to shoot the rest of the clip.
4) 1 clip Greek surplus ammo. Result: Good, no failures

To top it all off, I notice after shooting these 4 clips that the gas plug came slightly loose. I was definitely sure before my shooting session that I tightened the gas plug. Hand tight, I did not torque it down. Actually, the gas plug also came loose the last range session as well, but I did not catch that until time to clean the rifle.

This is somewhat confusing as I would imagine the gas plug coming loose is because of over pressure (am I right?). However, the cycling issue tells me that perhaps the rounds are still under pressure, so this is kind of conflicting. It could be that I just tighten down my plug enough, so the intense recoil of 30-06 still caused it to loosen. I'm wondering if my garand is particular and needs at least 50.0 gr to cycle properly. It's very possible during string #3 that some of my "unprecise" rounds came under 50.0 gr since I did not check each round.

I guess I still need to experiment. Next time around, I will make 4 clips (32 rounds) of "precise" reloads at 50.0 to 50.5 gr (or at least make sure they are no lower than 50.0 gr). If I can get through 4 clips reliably, then I will be at ease.

However, that gas plug coming loose is also a concern. Next time I will tighten quite a bit. I will also completely strip down my rifle to clean it up proper -- haven't done that in a while!

If anyone has tips about the gas plug, let me know.

Re: Reloading for Garand follies

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I've had the gas plug loosen, but that was only because I failed to tighten it sufficiently. Now, I use a 1/4 inch drive to put a little extra torque. Doesn't take much, and it fixed that problem.
Hell is where:
The British are the chefs
The Swiss are the lovers
The French are the mechanics
The Italians make everything run on time
And the Germans are the police

Re: Reloading for Garand follies

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10-15 ft lbs should be plenty- a large screwdriver or a 1/4 inch socket with just a little muscle behind it should be plenty. Totally with Beurr on this one. I'm not of the opinion that you can get a consistent tightening just by hand for the gas plug.

Odd that you're having cycling issues. Should not be overpressure at .3 + at 50gr.
“Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.”
- Maya Angelou

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Re: Reloading for Garand follies

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Well I went to the range yesterday with the garand, and third times the charm right?

So I loaded up 4 clips (32 rounds) of 30-06. Decided to give it an extra 'oomph' at 50.5 gr, measured the charge for all 32 rounds.

First clip -- good. Rest of them... intermittent failures to cycle, as seen before. I brought 2 extra clips of surplus Greek, and they ran fine. Oh yeah, I made sure the gas plug was tight this time, and it stayed tight for session.

Something must be wrong, I'm not doing something right. Well I did a bit of extra google fu, and it appears if the bolt is jamming up in this situation (cycling so fast as to not get the next round), it's probably from over pressure (http://www.m1-garand-rifle.com/garand-t ... ooting.php ). The second thing I found out was that if reloading with military surplus brass, I'm supposed to start 2 grains lower than normal (or more for me). This makes more sense now as to why I am having cycling issues even though I'm using the "ideal range" of powder. Hopefully I haven't destroyed my op-rod though, but it did cycle the surplus ammo fine, so I think it's ok.

I will need to make batches but starting much lower, and in batches of 8 as well. Unfortunately I'm all Garanded out, so the next update for this madness will probably be much later. I need a few ranges sessions with the AR to make up for all these failures.

Re: Reloading for Garand follies

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pdoggeth wrote:
Simmer down wrote:What was different about the first bloc that got them to function?
Not quite sure either! Maybe I just got lucky. But the first en-bloc seems to always be lucky, these last two range trips had successful first clips and failures all the rest.
Is the bolt-carrier getting gunked-up after the first clip? I'd suspect that isn't the case given the weapon in question, but....
LGC Texas - Vice President

Re: Reloading for Garand follies

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This is very weird. 4064 should work fine, but have you tried 4895? I started mine out on 47gr of imr 4895 under a 155gr Amax and it's run without a hiccup. I haven't tried anything else yet. To be sure, the ported gas plugs are probably useful, but a whole lot of Garands have fired a whole hell of a lot of cartridges without them. I'm afraid that's just a Bandaid in this case. I'd figure out what's wrong first.
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the cause, and misapplying the wrong remedies. Marx (Groucho Marx)

Re: Reloading for Garand follies

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atxgunguy wrote:
pdoggeth wrote:
Simmer down wrote:What was different about the first bloc that got them to function?
Not quite sure either! Maybe I just got lucky. But the first en-bloc seems to always be lucky, these last two range trips had successful first clips and failures all the rest.
Is the bolt-carrier getting gunked-up after the first clip? I'd suspect that isn't the case given the weapon in question, but....
Forgot to answer this question heheh. No the BCG is ok. Well, this was checking after like 6 clips of firing, but there's no gunkiness there.
KlrDrvr wrote:This is very weird. 4064 should work fine, but have you tried 4895? I started mine out on 47gr of imr 4895 under a 155gr Amax and it's run without a hiccup. I haven't tried anything else yet. To be sure, the ported gas plugs are probably useful, but a whole lot of Garands have fired a whole hell of a lot of cartridges without them. I'm afraid that's just a Bandaid in this case. I'd figure out what's wrong first.
Haven't tried 4895 yet, but before I jump ship on powders, I'm going to try the lower charge first, since that's what was recommended when reloading milsurp 30-06.

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