I was wondering how much truth there is to this alarmist mantra about having to clean your rifle the instant you stop shooting milsurp corrosive ammo.
We hear stuff like "carry a bottle of Windex or 50% ammonia with you to the range" Or "clean your rifle the moment you are done shooting, before you even pack up." "If you don't clean it immediately, it will be rusted by the end of the day."
Seemed to me like an internet myth, and from the video below, it REALLY seems like a myth.
This guy shot over 2000 rounds of 'corrosive' ammo, and then let the rifle sit uncleaned for a month. I didn't hear how long it took to shoot 2000+ rounds, but it was probably a long time in the first place.
The gun is rusty, but not what you expect from the 'clean it now or else!' mantra. I expected big flakes of rust, or being able to snap the barrel with my bare hands or something horrible.
You know what, it isn't that bad! Yes, there are some minor specs of rust, but not at all what I expected. Most of the crud he gets out is actually powder residue, typical of shooting 2000+ rounds before cleaning.
So waiting until you get home after shooting 100 rounds before you clean your rifle that evening or the next day seems to be perfectly reasonable from what I can see.
(Notice that he doesn't clean the most corrosion prone part of an SKS, the gas tube. Doh!)
[youtu_be]http://youtu.be/9AyRX58ZHGg[/youtu_be]
Re: Corrosive ammo - another exaggeration
2I don't know, after shooting old Russian (40's) 7.62x54, after a week the chamber of my mosin and part of the bolt face was covered in rust. After surplus 7.62x39, the AMD I had had the barrel nearly lined with rust. I didn't think it would be that bad. Although, whoever said to clean it as soon as you fire the last round is too cautious. I let mine sit with travel time about an hour after shooting and no rust will develople.
All problems can be solved with a copious amount of high explosives.
Re: Corrosive ammo - another exaggeration
3I think a speck of rust in the bore of my rifle that I could have avoided IS a big deal disaster. Differing standards on that count may play in to this question.
Re: Corrosive ammo - another exaggeration
4I do clean my gun immediately after shooting corrosive ammo. But I clean it soon so I can oil it and put it in the safe. I agree with fukshot one speck of rust that can be avoided is to much. To be frank, most corrosive ammo is so inaccurate that it takes the fun out of shooting the gun. I am only going to shoot 50 or 60 rounds in a session. I would rather pay fifty cents a round for ammo that shoots accurately and is the same ammo I will use while hunting.
Re: Corrosive ammo - another exaggeration
5At the range, I run some ammonia water cleaner through the bore and swab the bolt face. Then at home I clean normally.
There was once I forgot to swab the bolt face with ammonia at the range. Luckily it was a project rifle, and when I took it out the next day to fuck with it some more, I saw some rust specks on the bolt face. Ammonia, Hoppe's, then oil. Now, seven months later, it's still clean.
But you have to know that soldiers were not able to clean them right after firing during war time. So, no freaking out, just diligence: rust and politicians, in that order, are the enemies of firearms.
CDFingers
There was once I forgot to swab the bolt face with ammonia at the range. Luckily it was a project rifle, and when I took it out the next day to fuck with it some more, I saw some rust specks on the bolt face. Ammonia, Hoppe's, then oil. Now, seven months later, it's still clean.
But you have to know that soldiers were not able to clean them right after firing during war time. So, no freaking out, just diligence: rust and politicians, in that order, are the enemies of firearms.
CDFingers
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Re: Corrosive ammo - another exaggeration
6What's the mix on the ammonia water? Are you using Hoppe's #9 and which oil?
Re: Corrosive ammo - another exaggeration
7One gallon of Safeway ammonia cleaner for 99cents. It stays under the kitchen sink. I have a pint bottle that started out 50/50, but as it gets used I just add some water. When the ammonia smell gets weak, I add some more from under the sink. All that's necessary is to make the solution basic; it is alleged to neutralize the acidic salts. I've never done a controlled experiment, but I don't get rust, either. Yeah, number nine number nine number nine...
Gun oil in an orange squeeze bottle whose name is worn off. :-(
Just so you know, Finnish barrels are designed to be swabbed out using Soviet underwear and frozen borscht.
CDFingers
Gun oil in an orange squeeze bottle whose name is worn off. :-(
Just so you know, Finnish barrels are designed to be swabbed out using Soviet underwear and frozen borscht.
CDFingers
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like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
Re: Corrosive ammo - another exaggeration
8I'm not trying to start a flame, but here is my 2 cents worth.
Your location can make a BIG difference in your level of corrosion problems. If you live someplace like coastal FLA you have a lot of humidity plus salty atmosphere. If you live in the Mojave desert the humidity is very low and rust of any type is much less of a problem.
Also, there is a difference in the corrosion level of different ammo. It was commonly said that Turkish ammo was so bad it would start to rust BETWEEN shots. That's somewhat of an exaggeration, but it conveys the message.
There are a lot of variables at work here, so a blanket statement is risky and most likely to be wrong for some people.
Your location can make a BIG difference in your level of corrosion problems. If you live someplace like coastal FLA you have a lot of humidity plus salty atmosphere. If you live in the Mojave desert the humidity is very low and rust of any type is much less of a problem.
Also, there is a difference in the corrosion level of different ammo. It was commonly said that Turkish ammo was so bad it would start to rust BETWEEN shots. That's somewhat of an exaggeration, but it conveys the message.
There are a lot of variables at work here, so a blanket statement is risky and most likely to be wrong for some people.
Re: Corrosive ammo - another exaggeration
9How true, I've had stainless steel tools develop minor surface rust in Houston! Should have cleaned them better! Even though I have no plans to use corrosive ammo the procedurers are good to know.
Re: Corrosive ammo - another exaggeration
10The point that I'm trying to make is not that ammo can't be corrosive, but that the speed at which corrosion develops has become somewhat of a 'fish tale'. From the advice you hear, some ammo will start corroding your rifle just by being in the same zip code.
I think that you can comfortably wait until you get home to give your rifle a bath without freaking out; it isn't indispensable to wash it out immediately after shooting while at the range.
The whole thing came up because there was a guy at the range last week that wanted to shoot his pistol before his rifle, because shooting his pistol after his rifle would mean an hour delay to get home before cleaning the rifle, and he forgot his special ammonia mix. The whole thing seemed kind of ludicrous to me.
And if you are so panicky, maybe you should just get different ammo and live a less stressful life.
I think that you can comfortably wait until you get home to give your rifle a bath without freaking out; it isn't indispensable to wash it out immediately after shooting while at the range.
The whole thing came up because there was a guy at the range last week that wanted to shoot his pistol before his rifle, because shooting his pistol after his rifle would mean an hour delay to get home before cleaning the rifle, and he forgot his special ammonia mix. The whole thing seemed kind of ludicrous to me.
And if you are so panicky, maybe you should just get different ammo and live a less stressful life.
Re: Corrosive ammo - another exaggeration
11In this case it is not not cleaning, it is not protecting. It is the salt in the air that causes the rust. By cleaning too well, you can make things WORSE if you don't apply a protective coat of something.sikacz wrote:How true, I've had stainless steel tools develop minor surface rust in Houston! Should have cleaned them better! Even though I have no plans to use corrosive ammo the procedures are good to know.
Re: Corrosive ammo - another exaggeration
12Awake wrote:The point that I'm trying to make is not that ammo can't be corrosive, but that the speed at which corrosion develops has become somewhat of a 'fish tale'. From the advice you hear, some ammo will start corroding your rifle just by being in the same zip code.
I think that you can comfortably wait until you get home to give your rifle a bath without freaking out; it isn't indispensable to wash it out immediately after shooting while at the range.
The whole thing came up because there was a guy at the range last week that wanted to shoot his pistol before his rifle, because shooting his pistol after his rifle would mean an hour delay to get home before cleaning the rifle, and he forgot his special ammonia mix. The whole thing seemed kind of ludicrous to me.
And if you are so panicky, maybe you should just get different ammo and live a less stressful life.
Yep - that is pure panic. I have been shooting corrosive ammo for about 40 years and have never cleaned before going home. This is one area where "internet wisdom" will not let reality interfere.
At risk of starting another round there is no value in using ammonia for corrosive primers. Water dissolves the corrosive salts (the hotter the better) but ammonia or dish soap does not. Ammonia will work on copper fouling, but strong doses can be tough on stock finishes.
Next topic.....
Re: Corrosive ammo - another exaggeration
13I think it's best to remember CDFingers post, during war these old rifles didn't get cleaned immediately and the ammo for sure was corrosive! To me this is knowing best practices, if ammonia or soap does nothing let's discuss it and show our evidence. I'm a newbie in this area willing to learn!
Re: Corrosive ammo - another exaggeration
14I'd did oil them, but there was probably still some salt on them. But, I don't recall how I cleaned them, but I used machine oil on them.Awake wrote:In this case it is not not cleaning, it is not protecting. It is the salt in the air that causes the rust. By cleaning too well, you can make things WORSE if you don't apply a protective coat of something.sikacz wrote:How true, I've had stainless steel tools develop minor surface rust in Houston! Should have cleaned them better! Even though I have no plans to use corrosive ammo the procedures are good to know.
Re: Corrosive ammo - another exaggeration
15It's true that borscht is mostly water. ;-)
It's not the ammo that's corrosive, it's the primers.
CDFingers
It's not the ammo that's corrosive, it's the primers.
CDFingers
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Re: Corrosive ammo - another exaggeration
16In Texas and the south you can substitute gumbo for borscht! The Russian underwear, well there's no substitute for that!CDFingers wrote:It's true that borscht is mostly water. ;-)
It's not the ammo that's corrosive, it's the primers.
CDFingers
Re: Corrosive ammo - another exaggeration
17The Finns had a unique method of obtaining Soviet underwear...
CDFingers
CDFingers
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Re: Corrosive ammo - another exaggeration
18Yep, the details for underwear extraction is not fit for publication..CDFingers wrote:The Finns had a unique method of obtaining Soviet underwear...
CDFingers
Re: Corrosive ammo - another exaggeration
19In case anybody is interested, it is the primer residue that becomes corrosive AFTER ignition, not before. Primer powder is not corrosive.CDFingers wrote:
It's not the ammo that's corrosive, it's the primers.
CDFingers
'Corrosive' primers contain a large amount of Sodium Chlorate. That is a molecule of one sodium, one chlorine and three oxygen atoms. Sodium CHLORATE is very inert and does not cause corrosion.
When heated above 250 degrees C, the Sodium Chlorate decomposes, and the three oxygen atoms are liberated, where they are used to feed the ignition of the explosive parts of the primer. That is a lot of oxygen liberated per molecule.
That Sodium CHLORATE decomposition leaves behind one atom of Sodium and one of Chlorine, which remain combined as Sodium CHLORIDE, or common table salt.
So there is nothing intrinsically corrosive in corrosive primers, it is the leftover sea salt that is created in the explosion that creates a residue that is is corrosive to iron in the presence of water.
Sodium CHLORATE is so oxygen rich that it is used in the drop down emergency oxygen masks in airplanes. Yes, before you die from the crash, you get to breathe from what is basically a giant corrosive primer.
Re: Corrosive ammo - another exaggeration
20I admit to not cleaning my Type 53 for two to three days after the range. Yet to see problems. Also, strait water or liberal use of oil works fine.
In general, I've become less and less concern about keeping my commonly used firearms clean, even my AR. Well oiled is more important than clean.
In general, I've become less and less concern about keeping my commonly used firearms clean, even my AR. Well oiled is more important than clean.
Re: Corrosive ammo - another exaggeration
21If it really was as bad as they say, then there wouldn't be a single Mosin left- they all would have rotted away. I'm just a fan of common sense. Clean it after shooting- it'll even wait for a day or so without making it totally disintegrate.
Re: Corrosive ammo - another exaggeration
22I've shot corrosive with my AK 74 a few times, hot and cold out, cleaned within the hour or so, warm water and soap, followed by CLP. No rust. A couple of times it was hot as well as humid, and saw the muzzle brake rust before my eyes. It's just good form to clean well and get it done.
Re: Corrosive ammo - another exaggeration
23Great. One more thing for preppers to hoard. I should look into the availability of websites like:sikacz wrote:In Texas and the south you can substitute gumbo for borscht! The Russian underwear, well there's no substitute for that!CDFingers wrote:It's true that borscht is mostly water. ;-)
It's not the ammo that's corrosive, it's the primers.
CDFingers
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Re: Corrosive ammo - another exaggeration
24Actually, a lot of those Mosins were rebarreled at the arsenal. Yet others were just fixed up a bit.shinzen wrote:If it really was as bad as they say, then there wouldn't be a single Mosin left- they all would have rotted away. I'm just a fan of common sense. Clean it after shooting- it'll even wait for a day or so without making it totally disintegrate.
A lot of it also depends on the humidity in your locale. If you're in the Southwest of the United States (e. g. the Mojave Desert), you won't have nearly as much issue with this as, say, the Southeast or Pacific Northwest. Time of year also can play a role with this. I live in a fairly humid area. Whenever I've shot milsurp ammo in my Mosin, I flush it out with hot water soon as I get home, followed by the standard Hoppe's #9 treatment. My bore looks great.
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Re: Corrosive ammo - another exaggeration
25In Mexcio, I am told, they use Mariachi pants which, according to the song, start with wool and end with leather.sikacz wrote:In Texas and the south you can substitute gumbo for borscht! The Russian underwear, well there's no substitute for that!
Sounds like a bore snake.
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