Bear defense, XTP vs lead FP

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Interesting comment from someone who claims to have shot a metric shit-ton of bears.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve ... 8#43810798

I know virtually nothing about this topic, so I don't have much of anything to add. My follow-up question would be how much lighter a caliber will still hurt enough to distract the animal from chasing you while you keep shooting: are 15 x 10mm 180 gr XTPs actually worse than 6 x 240 gr .429s? Or 30 x 10mm, since I could probably reload and finish the second mag before I could reload a revolver.

Not that this is likely to matter. Most of the little time I've spent in brown bear habitat has been in Canada, and I won't be taking my pistol there.
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Re: Bear defense, XTP vs lead FP

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I fish, so I've read a lot on the bear/gun thing. There's a lot of info out there form armchair QBs. Full disclosure, I haven't had a bear encounter and only rarely carry when I fish. Plus, I live in black bear country, which is a lot different than the big browns (as the guy notes). I had always subscribed that having someone on "bear duty" with a slug filled 12 gauge would be the right idea in bear country if you were really worried. But I've also believed in the heavy cast bullet .44 plan and have recently felt like the same sort of rounds in a glock 10mm would be a pretty outstanding idea as well. Bear spray is easy to carry and use, but comes with its own trouble (wind direction for one). Overall though, the chances of running into a bear in the places I go fishing is pretty rare. Running into one that actually wanted to hassle me would be rarer still. A cougar is more likely. But on the offchance I ran into one who wanted to attack, I probably wouldn't see it until it was on top of me. A meth'd out tweaker "cougar" is probably the most likely "animal" I'll encounter. And while it's something to think about, there isn't much of a caliber debate for that one.

Bears run fast. Like, REALLY fast. I think if one was charging, you would be lucky to clear leather and get off a shot or two. Now, I have no idea how many serious encounters are full on surprise attacks and how many are where you have some time to see that trouble is coming. I do know that, for a given amount of time, I can empty rounds faster and more accurately with a semi than a similarly chambered wheelgun. You'll also hear a lot about semis jamming if you are trying to fire while an animal is on you. However, I don't hear a lot of actual "this happened" as far as that is concerned, just armchair guessing. I suppose it's possible though. Revolvers probably make better belly guns.

This fellow sounds like he knows what he's talking about though. I mean, it passes the smell test. A hollowpoint stuck inside would seem like it'd cause a lot more distraction than a heavier round passing through. Particularly if you don't hit bone. Even if it just slowed the bear for a second or two, that's enough time for that 2nd 3rd etc shot.

FWIW, I've been looking for both a used Glock 20 and/or a SP101 4" 357 as "woods guns". More for just having the chance to shoot a little when I'm in the middle of nowhere than anything else. But the ability to use it as a noisemaker to scare off wildlife wouldn't be terrible. Nor would the obvious gun-in-holster be a awful thing for giving the random tweaker something to think about. A 4" 44mag might be really nice as well. A friend had one of those polymer s&w 4" 44mags. Probably not much for longevity or hundreds of range rounds (thought 44spcl was actually fun), but easy to carry. I was handed down a Taurus 6" 44mag. But it's awkward to carry/draw for a guy my size. I should practice with it a bit more perhaps and give it another chance.

Re: Bear defense, XTP vs lead FP

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Not only are black bears extremely fast but they reach top speed in a couple of lopes. Humans actually smell and taste like shit to most predators, if they are going to attack they are generally sick and starving.
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Re: Bear defense, XTP vs lead FP

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PatCannon wrote:
eelj wrote:Humans actually smell and taste like shit to most predators
Just out of curiosity, how do you know this?
This is a commonly known fact that naturalists have been reporting for years from studying predator attacks on humans. Even shark attacks are cases of mistaken identity, they see a swimmer bite thinking its a tasty seal and spit them out and swim away to get the taste out of its mouth. Black bears don't even like a fresh kill, they prefer them well rotted except in the spring they like new born fawns.
"Hillary Clinton is the finest, bravest, kindest, the most wonderful person I've ever known in my whole life" Raymond Shaw

Re: Bear defense, XTP vs lead FP

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All the larger mammals I've encountered over the years were fast, much faster than I. Got attacked by a neighbor's German Shepherd once and was astonished how fast it closed 30 yards distance. It was only a second or two, and I couldn't fully draw my handgun in time. Good thing it stopped at my feet. We have cougars here in the Cincinnati area. There's more and more sightings every year. They are mostly muscle mass, not much fat and none of the gristle you find on hogs and bears, thus would likely be much easier to kill if you hit one. But cougars are the stealthiest predator you'll never see. Only deer are as stealthy. Black bear are becoming more common in the Ohio Valley region, with 400-lb'ers being taken in downstate Kentucky now. Farther east, 700 and 800-lb'ers are being taken in the Poconos. 700-lb'ers are taken up in the North Woods (WI, MI, MN), too. Those are big animals.

I've always been under the impression FMJ and hardcast bullets work best on fatty animals like bear and hogs, but I no experience with either animal. The poster's comments are interesting as he seems to have much experience. I'd be comfortable with 45 ACP hardcast in +P for bears and hogs that might be encountered in the more isolated areas of this region, and a .357 might be even better. But a 700 or 800-lb black bear would be a different story.
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Re: Bear defense, XTP vs lead FP

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FWIW, JJHack is plenty credible. Among other things, he's a professional hunter in South Africa (think safari company owner) and has written yearly about the successes and failures of different types of rifle bullets over the previous season. (He pays his skinners extra for a recovered bullet.)

He hangs out mostly in hunting forums, as this gives him the most crosssover with people who will schedules hunts with him. I almost scheduled with him once, and would still again, had I not given up hunting.

Added: Though having a website does not confer credibility by itself, you can see from this that Jim Hackiewicz is at least a professional: http://www.huntingadventures.net/
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