I have a BP era Winchester 1886. It's brown and dingy. While there's definitely some charm to the stock (date 1938 carved in the forend and a few other scratched designs) there is one bad stock repair that means the thing is definitely a project gun. The metal is complete with no major goobers, but has a few freckles.
It's chambered in .40-82 which is one of the original calibers. it is to the .40-65 what the .45-90 is to the .45-70. The bore is spotty and I'll be getting it to the range in the next couple of weeks to try with the 20 VERY expensive rounds of .40-82 I have. I'm not optimistic about it shooting well. Also, the .40-82 is not the powerhouse one might expect. It is one of Winchester's "express" calibers. The barrel twist is slow enough to limit things to the original bullet weights of 250-300 grains. The result is ballistics very much like a .41 Magnum, but a 9 pound rifle with a long lever throw to do it.
Unless I fall in love with the .40-82 (unlikely), I'll be having the barrel rebored and doing a bunch of work to the thing. The big question is caliber. The three in contention so far are .45-70, .45-90, and .50-100-450 (which is the .50-110 with a faster twist).
The Alaskans and Turnbulls and other modern cartridges are out. This is a 120+ year old BP barrel. No Jacketed bullets and no stinking high pressures.
I figure I may or may not keep this thing in the long run. That means resale comes in to consideration in my decision. .45-70 is very popular and available off the shelf nearly anywhere. On the other hand, the big .50s are the kind of thing that gets nerds excited. .45-90 is a bit of both worlds and has it's own following of fans.
What do y'all think? Cartridges I'm overlooking? Factors I haven't mentioned? Stupid reasons to go one way or another?
Re: 1886 project advice?
2No useful advice or knowledge but nice to hear from you.
'Sorry stupid people but there are some definite disadvantages to being stupid."
-John Cleese
-John Cleese
Re: 1886 project advice?
3I agree with Mason. However, as a relative novice to obscure calibers, the 45-70 speaks to me.
Re: 1886 project advice?
4i'd say 45-70 too, simply because it can be readily found.
i'm retired. what's your excuse?
Re: 1886 project advice?
5I'd poke around on the CASS and SASS sites and see what caliber that crowd likes considering that's where a likely buyer will be found.
Puffing up is no substitute for smarts but it's a common home remedy
Re: 1886 project advice?
6Yeah, Simmer has the right idea. Without passion for such obscure rounds, the economics of the matter would lead most here to go with the cheapest widely available round simply because it is rational. But if you can reload that cartridge, well then all bets are off. And we all know how much nerds and collectors are willing to ignore common economics in pursuit of their passions. So yes, check with those who are passionate about historical leverguns to help form your decision.
In the meantime, it'd be nice to see a pic of the target and the gun for your range trip to see what we are discussing here. I love leverguns, owned a few, but mostly in pistol cartridges, specifically the .357.
In the meantime, it'd be nice to see a pic of the target and the gun for your range trip to see what we are discussing here. I love leverguns, owned a few, but mostly in pistol cartridges, specifically the .357.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi
Re: 1886 project advice?
7I believe there was also a .40-70 although I don't know why, unless it was a compromise between .40-65 and .40-82. I kind of like the idea of .45-90 as a compromise and perhaps appealing to the BP reloader and, as Simmer noted, to the CAS types. Another consideration in resale and nerd appeal is a rare caliber that would carry a huge premium in an original 1886, such as the .50-100-450. Weren't many of those made.
Is yours a round or octagon barrel? Do you know the year of manufacture? Regardless, sounds like a cool project.
Is yours a round or octagon barrel? Do you know the year of manufacture? Regardless, sounds like a cool project.
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if they give you lined paper, write sideways.--Juan Ramon Jimenez
if they give you lined paper, write sideways.--Juan Ramon Jimenez
Re: 1886 project advice?
8.45-70 if you want resale. As you say, it's around. I like .45-90, but it's not around. Just has taht extra umph behind it. Course that could be the masochist in me talking.
Personally, I'd leave it original & restore it.
Personally, I'd leave it original & restore it.
Screw communism
Re: 1886 project advice?
9.40-70 is either a bottleneck (same case head as .40-65 which is straight taper) or a straight case (smaller case head, about like the .30-40 Krag case). Main reason for the duplication is that the .40-70s were both Sharps calibers rather than Winchester and everybody wanted to sell their own stuff.
I get the urge to keep it original. I'm keeping that possibility open, but the bore and the ballistics combine to keep me skeptical of that working out.
Hey Californians, does the ban on .50 rifles only apply to BMG or bore size? Does it apply to antiques?
I get the urge to keep it original. I'm keeping that possibility open, but the bore and the ballistics combine to keep me skeptical of that working out.
Hey Californians, does the ban on .50 rifles only apply to BMG or bore size? Does it apply to antiques?
Re: 1886 project advice?
11This is what I have handy. A brown ratty 1886 is a brown ratty 1886. These, if arty, give an idea of the internal condition and a bit of external surface.
Re: 1886 project advice?
12As far as stupid nerd reasons go (my favorite kind) - I like .45-90 because it encourages the rifle to keep its "big brother/sister" personality that it had as .40-82, relative to the .40-65. That being said, sometimes older siblings are a real disappointment. Nice to see your posts.
Be sure to make good choices when you're being stupid...
Re: 1886 project advice?
13I'd want to shoot it. And I wouldn't want to have to reload 100% of the time. So if it were mine, I'd go 45-70.
But I also probably wouldn't be able to do any of the required work
But I also probably wouldn't be able to do any of the required work
Re: 1886 project advice?
14I'm another in the .45-70 crowd if you want to sell it. You always have such interesting projects.
Can we see the whole thing?
CDFingers
Can we see the whole thing?
CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
Re: 1886 project advice?
16If I'm reading the law correctly on the .50 caliber stuff, it is very specific to the .50 BMG- so the .510 version of the same rifle is even allowed. Worth verifying though.
I like the idea of the .50, but practically, the .45-70 probably makes sense.
Any concerns with barrel/chamber material loss and making it too weak to handle the even lower pressure cartridges you are looking at?
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
I like the idea of the .50, but practically, the .45-70 probably makes sense.
Any concerns with barrel/chamber material loss and making it too weak to handle the even lower pressure cartridges you are looking at?
Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
Re: 1886 project advice?
17Being a traditionalist, a reloader who loves BP cartridge guns, and a gunsmithing student with an abiding interest in firearms restoration, my tendency would be to restore it to as original condition as possible in the original caliber/configuration.
If you are still intent on changing the caliber, the .45-90 has the versatility of being able to shoot both .45-70 cartridges and .45-90 when you need more oomph. In a BP-only gun, that can come in handy should someone desire to use it for hunting or long-range shooting. In a smokeless-capable gun, it makes no sense to go any bigger than .45-70.
You may want to consult someone who can appraise the value of the gun as it stands and what it might be should you make changes to it. You may find it's worth more untouched than converted to another caliber or after a poorly-done restoration job.
If you are still intent on changing the caliber, the .45-90 has the versatility of being able to shoot both .45-70 cartridges and .45-90 when you need more oomph. In a BP-only gun, that can come in handy should someone desire to use it for hunting or long-range shooting. In a smokeless-capable gun, it makes no sense to go any bigger than .45-70.
You may want to consult someone who can appraise the value of the gun as it stands and what it might be should you make changes to it. You may find it's worth more untouched than converted to another caliber or after a poorly-done restoration job.
Re: 1886 project advice?
18I am not a BP reloader, but the justification for 45-90 makes sense. That's what I would to with...more case=more powder, same pressure.dcramer64 wrote:Being a traditionalist, a reloader who loves BP cartridge guns, and a gunsmithing student with an abiding interest in firearms restoration, my tendency would be to restore it to as original condition as possible in the original caliber/configuration.
If you are still intent on changing the caliber, the .45-90 has the versatility of being able to shoot both .45-70 cartridges and .45-90 when you need more oomph. In a BP-only gun, that can come in handy should someone desire to use it for hunting or long-range shooting. In a smokeless-capable gun, it makes no sense to go any bigger than .45-70.
You may want to consult someone who can appraise the value of the gun as it stands and what it might be should you make changes to it. You may find it's worth more untouched than converted to another caliber or after a poorly-done restoration job.
Re: 1886 project advice?
19If I know Marlene, she knows exactly how much it's worthdcramer64 wrote:Being a traditionalist, a reloader who loves BP cartridge guns, and a gunsmithing student with an abiding interest in firearms restoration, my tendency would be to restore it to as original condition as possible in the original caliber/configuration.
If you are still intent on changing the caliber, the .45-90 has the versatility of being able to shoot both .45-70 cartridges and .45-90 when you need more oomph. In a BP-only gun, that can come in handy should someone desire to use it for hunting or long-range shooting. In a smokeless-capable gun, it makes no sense to go any bigger than .45-70.
You may want to consult someone who can appraise the value of the gun as it stands and what it might be should you make changes to it. You may find it's worth more untouched than converted to another caliber or after a poorly-done restoration job.
Re: 1886 project advice?
20Unless I get a big surprise at the range, to stay .40-82, it needs a reline. That's a bit more expensive than a rebore. With a shiny un-pitted bore and a stock with no cracks, this level of brown gun is in the $2K range. This is one of those rare situations where messing with it is actually the best thing to do. Pretty much anything I do increases the value.dcramer64 wrote:Being a traditionalist, a reloader who loves BP cartridge guns, and a gunsmithing student with an abiding interest in firearms restoration, my tendency would be to restore it to as original condition as possible in the original caliber/configuration.
If you are still intent on changing the caliber, the .45-90 has the versatility of being able to shoot both .45-70 cartridges and .45-90 when you need more oomph. In a BP-only gun, that can come in handy should someone desire to use it for hunting or long-range shooting. In a smokeless-capable gun, it makes no sense to go any bigger than .45-70.
You may want to consult someone who can appraise the value of the gun as it stands and what it might be should you make changes to it. You may find it's worth more untouched than converted to another caliber or after a poorly-done restoration job.
I suppose if I re-lined it, I could keep it .40-82 and speed up the twist to make it handle heavy bullets better? Hard to say where things like this fall in terms of value on the market. Calibers nobody has heard of are a hard sell.
I'm torn between the off-the-shelf quality of .45-70 and the more exotic character of the other choices. The fact that the repros are almost all in .45-70 casts a bit of a negative shadow on that as a choice; this isn't a high end collector piece, it's an original shooter; why spend the same money on a soft steel original as a brand new Miroku? Am I crazy to think that -90 or the .50 are more "special" to the kind of nerd who would go for the old gun?
Shinzen, barrel/chamber wall are not an issue for the .50.
Re: 1886 project advice?
21An exotic caliber somehow fits you. If you're going to keep it and load for it, that's how you should go. As long as you can get all the proper components, dies, molds and so on, you can get creative. This is a fine canvas for you. Nice.
CDFingers
CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack
Re: 1886 project advice?
22I dunno nuttin' about 'em, but I do know you'll do a damnfino job on it.
(Welcome back.)
(Welcome back.)
"There never was a union of church and state which did not bring serious evils to religion."
The Right Reverend John England, first Roman Catholic Bishop of Charleston SC, 1825.
The Right Reverend John England, first Roman Catholic Bishop of Charleston SC, 1825.
Re: 1886 project advice?
23I think the .50 black powder would be the way to go. I don't know the availability of brass, which might be limiter of it's appeal in that caliber.
When do get to see this fine beast?
When do get to see this fine beast?
Bleeding Heart Liberal with Second Amendment Benefits.
Re: 1886 project advice?
24There is no such thing as a project gun on a 1886 rifle. If you have any thoughts of selling this gun, leave everything alone because it will cut the current value in half or more
If you want a 45-70, sell that and buy a trapdoor instead.
If the stock is original finish but repaired, then just make the repair right if you feel shooting will cause damage. I wouldn't refinish it even if it has been refinished in the past unless it's necessary to do so. At least an old refinish still shows age.
The more you mess around with these guns, the more depreciated they become. Collectors are very very picky even on entry level arms.
If you want a 45-70, sell that and buy a trapdoor instead.
If the stock is original finish but repaired, then just make the repair right if you feel shooting will cause damage. I wouldn't refinish it even if it has been refinished in the past unless it's necessary to do so. At least an old refinish still shows age.
The more you mess around with these guns, the more depreciated they become. Collectors are very very picky even on entry level arms.