More leading woes with 629-New picture

1
First, for those who recall my earlier posts where I was all happy and shit that SW hooked me up on my repair....disregard.

At this point, this gun is leading up after ONE round, as in I need to use Chore Boy to get out the lead.

The leading is throughout the bore, not just in one spot or area. It's not a haze; it's more like heavy splotching all over the place....and full length of the bore.

This has been a problem with commercial cast bullets as well (which I expect since that's been my experience with all my guns).

But with my softer alloyed bullets with excellent lube, I expected better. For reference, my 45 Colt Vaquero, has zero leading and the accuracy is excellent. Same goes for my 686.

Not sure where to start, so I slugged one chamber and then the bore, and here's what I came up with:
chamber slugged at .4295.

I then took that slug and used it to slug the bore. I'm getting .4285 groove-to-groove. Land-to-land is more difficult to measure because there are 5 lands and 5 grooves so they are not opposite each other. I lubrisized these bullets down to .430 so, as I understand it, these values are not problematic. Undersized bullet cannot be the cause of this leading.

What else can it be? Bore roughness? Do I need to firelap? Send it back again to Smith? Sell it? What?

I will add that the Ruger bore is bright and shiny. Neither of my Smiths have that, but that may be simply a function of the process that Smith uses to rifle the bore, and besides, my 686 has the same dull appearance but I have no complaints about it's performance.

One other thing. My Henry 45 (no mirror bright bore) can shoot all day long with zero leading.

What the flock is going on here?

At this point I'm about ready to chuck the goddamn thing.
Last edited by beaurrr on Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: More leading woes with 629-HELP!

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Antiquus wrote:Check your throat diameter at the end of the chambers. All of them. Should be .4325" +.004.
I just measured all six, using a Mitutoyo caliper. All measure .4295 right on the money. I took several measurements, on all three driving bands.
Now what?
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Re: More leading woes with 629-HELP!

6
Antiquus wrote:Back to S&W and tell them what the problem is and note the SAAMI spec for the throat dia.
Can you tell me this is supposed to work? My understanding is that the absolute value is less important than the relative values between the throats and the bore.....up to a point. I thought that the throats should be the same as, or a bit larger than the bore, and that is the case here.

So, if the SAAMI spec is .4325" +.004, that will make them, at a minimum, .004 inch larger than bore size, and at a max, .008 inch larger than the bore. That dimension also means that my .430 sized bullets would fall freely through the throats.
Am I missing something?

Just for the sake of comparison; my non-leading New Vaquero throats measure at .4505 and the bore slugs at .4505. My cast bullets are sized to .452 inch.

Antiquus, please don't think I'm arguing with you here, because I'm not. I appreciate your replies. I'm merely trying to understand this particular issue before I decide on a course of action.

I've never found Smith ready to answer any of my questions regarding possible problems with their guns, except simply to say, "Here's a shipping label".
Hell is where:
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The Swiss are the lovers
The French are the mechanics
The Italians make everything run on time
And the Germans are the police

Re: More leading woes with 629-HELP!

7
beaurrr wrote:
Antiquus wrote:Back to S&W and tell them what the problem is and note the SAAMI spec for the throat dia.
Can you tell me this is supposed to work? My understanding is that the absolute value is less important than the relative values between the throats and the bore.....up to a point. I thought that the throats should be the same as, or a bit larger than the bore, and that is the case here.

So, if the SAAMI spec is .4325" +.004, that will make them, at a minimum, .004 inch larger than bore size, and at a max, .008 inch larger than the bore. That dimension also means that my .430 sized bullets would fall freely through the throats.
Am I missing something?

Just for the sake of comparison; my non-leading New Vaquero throats measure at .4505 and the bore slugs at .4505. My cast bullets are sized to .452 inch.

Antiquus, please don't think I'm arguing with you here, because I'm not. I appreciate your replies. I'm merely trying to understand this particular issue before I decide on a course of action.

I've never found Smith ready to answer any of my questions regarding possible problems with their guns, except simply to say, "Here's a shipping label".
It sounds like a rough bore. Your bullets sound like a snug fit as they should be and the bore is evenly leaded the full length. I would look into fire lapping it and figure out if that is the way I wanted to go. I also might consider if it was my gun shooting about 500 jacketed bullets through it. Sorry you are having so many problems with your Smiths.

Re: More leading woes with 629-HELP!

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eelj wrote:It sounds like a rough bore. Your bullets sound like a snug fit as they should be and the bore is evenly leaded the full length. I would look into fire lapping it and figure out if that is the way I wanted to go. I also might consider if it was my gun shooting about 500 jacketed bullets through it. Sorry you are having so many problems with your Smiths.
I wondered about this, too. When I got it back from Smith, I posted here that I could feel the roughness when running a tight patch through the bore. But when shooting it, I saw some decent groupings and less fouling than I had seen before.

Maybe I'll pick up some jacketed bullets and see how that goes.
Thanks, eelj.

Any recommendations on fire lapping products? I don't know anything about this.
Hell is where:
The British are the chefs
The Swiss are the lovers
The French are the mechanics
The Italians make everything run on time
And the Germans are the police

Re: More leading woes with 629-HELP!

9
beaurrr wrote:
eelj wrote:It sounds like a rough bore. Your bullets sound like a snug fit as they should be and the bore is evenly leaded the full length. I would look into fire lapping it and figure out if that is the way I wanted to go. I also might consider if it was my gun shooting about 500 jacketed bullets through it. Sorry you are having so many problems with your Smiths.
I wondered about this, too. When I got it back from Smith, I posted here that I could feel the roughness when running a tight patch through the bore. But when shooting it, I saw some decent groupings and less fouling than I had seen before.

Maybe I'll pick up some jacketed bullets and see how that goes.
Thanks, eelj.

Any recommendations on fire lapping products? I don't know anything about this.
I have never done it before but Jeff Quinns sight has an article by Fermin Garza (2dogs from Lee Martins forum) on fire lapping.

Re: More leading woes with 629-HELP!

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Your measurement of the groove to groove may not be accurate. My Smiths are all 5 groove rifling and very hard to measure the slug. A 'V' anvil micrometer can give it to you, and you have to get one with the correct angle, but wow, those things cost 400-500 dollars.

What I did was to go to the hardware store, bought a cheap feeler gage set. Then I cut out the 0.001" blade (check it in your micrometer). Then I wrapped it around the slug tight. Subtracted 0.002" to get a better read. You could try a cut up beer can too, but the thickness might vary a bit.

These make quick removal of my leading. http://www.brownells.com/gun-cleaning-c ... 21587.aspx
Bud.

"If we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure"---- Dan Quayle, 1990.

Re: More leading woes with 629-HELP!

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Well, I've put down a couple hundred rounds of fire lapped bullets, starting with 220 grit, moving to 320 and then a bunch of 600 grit.

There is still a thread crush/constriction (although not as pronounced as my non-leading Vaquero 45. The concentric tool chatter is still clearly visible when looking down the bore, and the leading is as bad as it ever was no matter the load.

My bullets are sized to .430 and the throats are miking at .4295, so I don't see that as a problem.

I think my next step(s) is/are take it to a local pistolsmith of some inspection and / or fire off an email to Smith and Wesson and explain my problem....again.

It's hard to imagine that a problem that causes immediate and severe leading would be THAT difficult to diagnose. Smith, unfortunately, has an apparent policy not communicating the findings of whatever diagnosis they may, or may not have made to the owner. Their policy appears to be "send it back and we'll do something to it and send it back to you without explaining what we did and why we did it".

I appreciate Smith's willingness to take it back, but at this rate, it looks like another three-fer. My 686 took three trips before they got it right. This gun has only been back once, so maybe that's the problem..

For fuck's sake, why is Smith even sending PC guns out the door with angry beaver bores? Maybe I'll start looking for a Freedom Arms. I wonder if they can get a gun out the door that shoots like it's supposed to?
Hell is where:
The British are the chefs
The Swiss are the lovers
The French are the mechanics
The Italians make everything run on time
And the Germans are the police

Re: More leading woes with 629-HELP!

16
beaurrr wrote:Well, I've put down a couple hundred rounds of fire lapped bullets, starting with 220 grit, moving to 320 and then a bunch of 600 grit.

There is still a thread crush/constriction (although not as pronounced as my non-leading Vaquero 45. The concentric tool chatter is still clearly visible when looking down the bore, and the leading is as bad as it ever was no matter the load.

My bullets are sized to .430 and the throats are miking at .4295, so I don't see that as a problem.

I think my next step(s) is/are take it to a local pistolsmith of some inspection and / or fire off an email to Smith and Wesson and explain my problem....again.

It's hard to imagine that a problem that causes immediate and severe leading would be THAT difficult to diagnose. Smith, unfortunately, has an apparent policy not communicating the findings of whatever diagnosis they may, or may not have made to the owner. Their policy appears to be "send it back and we'll do something to it and send it back to you without explaining what we did and why we did it".

I appreciate Smith's willingness to take it back, but at this rate, it looks like another three-fer. My 686 took three trips before they got it right. This gun has only been back once, so maybe that's the problem..

For fuck's sake, why is Smith even sending PC guns out the door with angry beaver bores? Maybe I'll start looking for a Freedom Arms. I wonder if they can get a gun out the door that shoots like it's supposed to?
BFRs are air gauged and hand lapped at the factory. I'm really sorry for you and I can't believe that a precision center gun can be so fucked.

Re: More leading woes with 629-HELP!

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Beaurr, is this a problem with only this Smith gun, or have most of your S&Ws had these issues?

It's a little worrisome for me since I have been eyeing (for next year) a model 29. However, if Smith's got some issues and I have to use FMJs all the time, that would make me reconsider as I don't have that much willingness to splurge for expensive projectiles.

Re: More leading woes with 629-HELP!

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pdoggeth wrote:Beaurr, is this a problem with only this Smith gun, or have most of your S&Ws had these issues?

It's a little worrisome for me since I have been eyeing (for next year) a model 29. However, if Smith's got some issues and I have to use FMJs all the time, that would make me reconsider as I don't have that much willingness to splurge for expensive projectiles.
He's had problems with brand new ones. I have a 624 that was made in the 80's and I have shot it well over 1000 times with lead bullets only and never cleaned the bore. I have an even older K38 that has never had a jacketed slug fired through it and have also never cleaned the bore. All I can say is either Beaurr is very unlucky or quality control is down the drain at S&W.

Re: More leading woes with 629-HELP!

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Only with the the two new Smiths, both of which are PC guns. My 19-4 will shoot lead all day. My 29-3 hasn't seen much lead but but there wasn't much to clean out.

On this one, I have to take a Chore Boy cleaner and scrub the bore after say 10 shots, and the Chore Boy cleaner will produce a nice little pile of lead.

My Ruger NV will lead depending on the bullets, but never like this.

The last time I sent in my 686 PC, they replaced the cylinder and bore. Right off the bat, I could feel a significant difference in smoothness of the bore when running a tight patch. Before, it had been rough.

I wish I could say that there is something I could do in my casting or loading or whatever that would make this go away. But no matter what I try, I get pretty much the same thing. The exception to that is to load mousefart loads. That does seem to not lead too badly.
Hell is where:
The British are the chefs
The Swiss are the lovers
The French are the mechanics
The Italians make everything run on time
And the Germans are the police

Re: More leading woes with 629-HELP!

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eelj wrote:All I can say is either Beaurr is very unlucky or quality control is down the drain at S&W.
THere is one other thing; I shoot a lot, and I shoot strictly lead. The average Joe probably doesn't shoot thousands of rounds a year and they most likely are shooting jacketed. I would wager that should I change to shooting a box of factory jacketed ammo here and there, I'd likely not be posting about this.

I also speculate that this very thing is part of Smith's current business model, which is indeed sad.
Hell is where:
The British are the chefs
The Swiss are the lovers
The French are the mechanics
The Italians make everything run on time
And the Germans are the police

Re: More leading woes with 629-HELP!

23
beaurrr wrote:
eelj wrote:All I can say is either Beaurr is very unlucky or quality control is down the drain at S&W.
THere is one other thing; I shoot a lot, and I shoot strictly lead. The average Joe probably doesn't shoot thousands of rounds a year and they most likely are shooting jacketed. I would wager that should I change to shooting a box of factory jacketed ammo here and there, I'd likely not be posting about this.

I also speculate that this very thing is part of Smith's current business model, which is indeed sad.
I would bet if you take all the gun owners in the US the average non military/LEO gun owners doesn't shoot a fifty round box of ammo a year.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: More leading woes with 629-HELP!

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TrueTexan wrote:
beaurrr wrote:
eelj wrote:All I can say is either Beaurr is very unlucky or quality control is down the drain at S&W.
THere is one other thing; I shoot a lot, and I shoot strictly lead. The average Joe probably doesn't shoot thousands of rounds a year and they most likely are shooting jacketed. I would wager that should I change to shooting a box of factory jacketed ammo here and there, I'd likely not be posting about this.

I also speculate that this very thing is part of Smith's current business model, which is indeed sad.
I would bet if you take all the gun owners in the US the average non military/LEO gun owners doesn't shoot a fifty round box of ammo a year.
I shot 5 or 6 times that yesterday
Image


It was with 5 different guns in 4 different calibers, that's why I didn't keep a more precise count.
Image
Image

Re: More leading woes with 629-HELP!

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Speaking of which....
I've made it a goal to mine the berm for at least as much as I end up shooting on any given day.
Tuesday, I got 31 lbs of mostly jacketed scrap which yielded 22 lbs of smelted lead, which gave me a margin of about 11 lbs.

The gun, however, doesn't seem to care where the lead's coming from. :(
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