Re: More leading woes with 629-New picture

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This totally blows man. I'd give up on S&W fixing the issue at this point and reach out to a few reputable revolver gunsmiths. Prepare an email outlining the details of what you've already been through to try to resolve it and the number of times it's been sent back. The bad part is that it will cost you, but I'd be more inclined to do that than to keep screwing around with the factory or sending it off to someone for work without having a solid diagnosis.
“Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.”
- Maya Angelou

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Re: More leading woes with 629-New picture

53
I just got of the phone with Ashley from S&W customer service. Apparently, one or more of my emails to them has come to the attention of her manager and they now wish me to return the gun a forth time. This time, she says, the gun will be getting a de novo look, including by her manager and one of the smiths.

Presumably, the different folks do not include (or maybe they do) the angry beaver that 'fixed' the forcing cone.

I was on my best behavior, meaning gracious and thankful, because, after all, I just want them to either fix what is causing the problem, or tell me what I can do to fix it myself.

Shinzen-
I had been mulling over your advice and was more or less prepared to do that. My concern all along has been the risk of voiding the warranty or having work done that didn't address the problem. But now that Smith seems to be interested in escalating this, I'll do what I can to work with them.
Hell is where:
The British are the chefs
The Swiss are the lovers
The French are the mechanics
The Italians make everything run on time
And the Germans are the police

Re: More leading woes with 629-New picture

54
Yeah, if they will actually do something more than a halfhearted look at the damned thing I'm sure they have the capability to fix it at the factory. If you hadn't gotten that email I'd say the warranty isn't worth the paper it's printed on though. Hopefully the angry beaver has been fired, as it's got no business chewing on a performance center that way. Good luck, maybe fourth time is a charm!
“Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.”
- Maya Angelou

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Re: More leading woes with 629-New picture

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beaurrr wrote:Sikacz- you'd asked for some before-and-after pictures. Well, here's a picture after shooting 50 rounds yesterday. :evil:
DSC02450 (1).JPG
I see your distress. That's just awful. Hope you start getting some real answers. Thank you for posting the pic. I've never seen anything like that.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: More leading woes with 629-New picture

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Simmer down wrote:I shoot mostly lead, but not at magnum speeds, and don't have this problem. Does it lead up with lighter lead loads?
Yes, it does, but only slightly less. I can make some mousefart Power Pistol loads that I use for indoor range.

Turning to my 686 for a bit, I had a similar problem when it was new and they replaced the cylinder and barrel, and it did make the problem go away. I've recently been making some scorchers, using the about the same alloy. I'm talking like 17 grains of IMR 4227, which by the way, is a compressed load. These bullets are soft enough to gouge with a fingernail. My Cabine Tree hardness tester gives them a hardness of about 11, give or take. No change in the leading, such it is.

With all three guns I've noticed overall, that it pretty much doesn't matter how hard or how soft the lead is, or how hot or how mild the loading is, within limits of course. The degree of leading as well as the leading patterns don't really change that much.

I saw this phenomenon with my 29 recently. Sizing them up to .432 made an immediately visible improvement in the leading, and the accuracy. Prior to that, I had tried several different loads but there was no discernible difference, just a lot of lead. That gun has .433 throats, while the subject gun has throats that slug at .430. I would have tried going to .433 but that would require a new sizer die and bullet mould.

The only other thing I can try is using my new .429 bullet sizer die and see what happens.
Hell is where:
The British are the chefs
The Swiss are the lovers
The French are the mechanics
The Italians make everything run on time
And the Germans are the police

Re: More leading woes with 629-New picture

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I would be firm without being a pain in the ass and request they either fix it so it shoots at the level that Smiths are famous for or replaced. I felt physically ill after looking at the last pic. I own revolvers that have never shot a jacketed round and the only molds that I have that cast a gas check slug are for my rifles. The only leading I get is very minimal out of my BFR with very heavy cast slugs crunched down on very heavy charges of 296, and I mean crunched down.

Re: More leading woes with 629-New picture

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eelj wrote:I would be firm without being a pain in the ass and request they either fix it so it shoots at the level that Smiths are famous for or replaced. I felt physically ill after looking at the last pic. I own revolvers that have never shot a jacketed round and the only molds that I have that cast a gas check slug are for my rifles. The only leading I get is very minimal out of my BFR with very heavy cast slugs crunched down on very heavy charges of 296, and I mean crunched down.
Yep, and when they call me to tell me that the gun is in spec, that's when I'll start in with the 'firm' part. I've been thinking about this today. My attitude had been that if, and only if I knew what the problem was, that I would have just had the work done myself. But now, I'm not sure why I should have to, and I don't think I'm going to accept that option if they start telling me that "everything is in spec and there's nothing we can do". I think it will then be time to tell them to stick that gun up their collective asses and send a fucking refund so I can go buy a Freedom Arms or something.

Honestly, I'm bewildered that this is even a thing. My Vaquero, which frankly, is a pretty crude gun in comparison and has a big ol' bore constriction, will not lead under any conditions, (except a little with some ultra hard commercial cast junk). The 686 sees all kinds of experimental loads and there is light leading that can be cleaned out with a single patch. And I've used soft lead that I thought would be a problem. Likewise with hardball commercial bullets. But there weren't problems.

If this hadn't actually made me angry enough to reply to them last night using the eff word, I think I would have to just laugh at what passes for customer service sometimes and just write them off.

But, they did reach out, and that's better than them just hiding behind their 'Level 1' CS group, giving me the runaround. Now, I've graduated to Level 2 customer service....Wooo hooo!

My name must have come up at the morning meeting.
Hell is where:
The British are the chefs
The Swiss are the lovers
The French are the mechanics
The Italians make everything run on time
And the Germans are the police

Re: More leading woes with 629-New picture

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Jeez, this is becoming a more complicated.
For my latest round of testing, I made 100 rounds using 11.0 grains of 800x (down from the prior standard of 12.5 grains), AND I lube-sized my boolits to .429 instead of the prior standard of .430.

BTW, 11 grains of 800x under a 250 grain bullet is still pretty snappy and hits hard.

Well, the leading was not nil, but it was was greatly reduced and what I would consider to be totally acceptable. In the past, cleaning the bore required the use of Chore Boy. This time, the bore cleaned up with a couple tight fitting patches soaked in brake cleaner. I used the Chore Boy to get the last bit of lead but it was no biggie. I should note that the bit of scaly lead that did remain was very close to the muzzle and that typically indicates that the lube is petering out, but it's a really minor thing, correctable by altering the lube recipe.

As for accuracy, I would consider it to be excellent....right on par with the best 44 mag loads I've shot from this gun and others.

But, here's the problem. I made the mistake of adjusting two variables at the same time (reducing the load and sizing the bullets smaller than normal). Therefore I cannot say which change accounts for the improvement, or if it was a combination (I hope not).

Next step is to make 50 rounds of the older, hotter load, using the newer, smaller sized bullets. Likewise, make 50 rounds of the newer, lighter load using the older, larger (.430) bullets. In the past, 50 rounds has been enough to trigger serious leading.

I'll shoot the first batch, then inspect and clean the bore while at the range. I can then load of the second batch, shoot them up, and inspect and clean the bore. Comparing my observation between the two batches should give more meaningful results, I think.
Thoughts?

Might owe S&W an apology..... :?
Hell is where:
The British are the chefs
The Swiss are the lovers
The French are the mechanics
The Italians make everything run on time
And the Germans are the police

Re: More leading woes with 629-New picture

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Well, my test was a bust. My .429 bullets leaded. My .430 bullets leaded. 30 rounds and that was enough.

I'm going to take Ashley from Smith and Wesson up on her offer and send it back for the forth time. She promises a fresh look at it. I mean, I am at LEVEL 2 customer service! Wooo!

ps. My 29-3 performs like a champ. No real leading and excellent accuracy.

I hope they just give me a new fucking gun.
Hell is where:
The British are the chefs
The Swiss are the lovers
The French are the mechanics
The Italians make everything run on time
And the Germans are the police

Re: More leading woes with 629-New picture

66
beaurrr wrote:Well, my test was a bust. My .429 bullets leaded. My .430 bullets leaded. 30 rounds and that was enough.

I'm going to take Ashley from Smith and Wesson up on her offer and send it back for the forth time. She promises a fresh look at it. I mean, I am at LEVEL 2 customer service! Wooo!

ps. My 29-3 performs like a champ. No real leading and excellent accuracy.

I hope they just give me a new fucking gun.
Man, makes me weary of ever buying a new S&W... Very happy with my old one.
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Re: More leading woes with 629-New picture

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I'm totally content with my new 686, and if they figure out what the problem is, I'll be very happy with my 629 as well. It shoot like a laser....until the leading starts.
I certainly would not discourage anyone from buying a new Smith. Just because I had some problems doesn't mean they're all shit. Very much the contrary.
Hell is where:
The British are the chefs
The Swiss are the lovers
The French are the mechanics
The Italians make everything run on time
And the Germans are the police

Re: More leading woes with 629-New picture

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beaurrr,

I'm getting into this pretty late, but I might be able to shed some light on your issue. So understand that S&W's revolver barrels these days are not cut, broach, or hammer forged; they're EDM. The wonderful thing about EDM is that it makes for an exceptionally dimensionally consistent barrel. On the down side, it can leave the bore a little rough at times. All barrels should be lapped regardless of which process was used after rifling. Something tells me this either didn't happen, or was completely insufficient on your gun. This would explain why you're getting great accuracy, but heavy leading. All the dimensions everywhere are correct, and you're sizing your bullets exactly right. But if the barrel is rough all the way through, then it's just never going to not lead.

I would talk to S&W about this and see what they think. I would insist on a new barrel from the factory. If it comes back with the same barrel, then either you lap the bore, or send it down the road. The proper way to lap the bore is hand lapping (look the process up, it will take too long for me to explain, but it's not rocket science). The problem with fire lapping is that it does 90% of the lapping in the first 1" of the barrel and it takes dozens and dozens of rounds before you get smooth toward the end of the barrel. Still, fire lapping is better than no lapping at all.

I hope you find this helpful. Best of luck to you sir.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: More leading woes with 629-New picture

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FrontSight-
You're not the only one to bring up the issue of how the barrels are now made and finished. When I first got the gun, I felt the bore finish was acceptable, but it went back to the factory due to severe leading, and also a forcing cone that was developing an egg shape after 600 cast rounds. They then replaced the cylinder, and changed out the barrel with one that was considerably rougher than the original, but oddly, the leading improved slightly. But it was still easily unacceptable.

After trying all kinds of different things (bullet sizing, lube formulations, alloy hardness, loads), I found that nothing made much difference, which I thought was odd. With my 29-3, all that was needed was to size the bullets to the .432 throats and the leading went from atrocious to nil, just like that. And now, I can shoot anything I want with no leading, I mean none. Just like my other wheelguns.

A few weeks ago, a CS manager from the factory did call me to express their apologies for my ongoing problems and insisted I send it back a forth time, which I have done.

Ashley, the CS manager at Smith, said they would give me a call with the results of their evaluation. Thanks for bringing up the issue about the EDM barrel; I'll make sure to bring that up.
Hell is where:
The British are the chefs
The Swiss are the lovers
The French are the mechanics
The Italians make everything run on time
And the Germans are the police

Re: More leading woes with 629-New picture

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beaurrr wrote:FrontSight-
You're not the only one to bring up the issue of how the barrels are now made and finished. When I first got the gun, I felt the bore finish was acceptable, but it went back to the factory due to severe leading, and also a forcing cone that was developing an egg shape after 600 cast rounds. They then replaced the cylinder, and changed out the barrel with one that was considerably rougher than the original, but oddly, the leading improved slightly. But it was still easily unacceptable.

After trying all kinds of different things (bullet sizing, lube formulations, alloy hardness, loads), I found that nothing made much difference, which I thought was odd. With my 29-3, all that was needed was to size the bullets to the .432 throats and the leading went from atrocious to nil, just like that. And now, I can shoot anything I want with no leading, I mean none. Just like my other wheelguns.

A few weeks ago, a CS manager from the factory did call me to express their apologies for my ongoing problems and insisted I send it back a forth time, which I have done.

Ashley, the CS manager at Smith, said they would give me a call with the results of their evaluation. Thanks for bringing up the issue about the EDM barrel; I'll make sure to bring that up.
Smith & Wesson is VERY serious about happy customers. I've had a tour of the factory by the CEO and CFO and even the CFO was really into the product and customer satisfaction. S&W is a VERY customer focused business and they will continue to do whatever they can to make things right. When I talked to their product manager and head engineer for revolvers and told him the groups my 617 shot (that I was generally happy with) he insisted that I send it back to him personally. I said thanks but no thanks, all was well and I didn't buy the revolver for shooting bullseye matches, I bought it to keep my DA revolver skill up to snuff, and it's MORE than accurate enough for that (1.4" at 25 yards, but he said it should be much closer to 1"). It's the most accurate revolver I own and I can hit all the way out to 100 yard with it when I want to, so why fix what isn't broken.

It's really cool how proud they are of their products. You're an anomaly where customers are concerned, I'm betting they don't get many that shoot as much cast as you do. Regardless it should shoot those cast bullets with zero problems. I wish you the absolute best of luck sir and I hope S&W manages to get it right, they still make the best revolver out there.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: More leading woes with 629-New picture

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FS-
Yeah- when I first got that call from Ashley, I could see that they indeed were serious about customer happiness. I would guess that the hangups I experienced were due to the lower level at which the complaint was handled. I imagine those folks are used to handling the run-of-the-mill problems and when something like mine comes through, the "system" chokes, or at least it did in my case.

I have no doubt that if the right person gets my gun, they will understand the problem. And like I've said many times, I've never complained about accuracy, only leading

Just today, I was out shooting my '80s vintage 29-3, with the exact same loads that I used to shoot with my 629. I should note that all of the 150 or so rounds had been sized to .430 for the 629's tighter throats, not the .433 that this gun does best with (throats are .433). Still, there was very little leading and accuracy was right on.

I should be hearing something soon. I'm really anticipating having the gun back. I really like shooting it and if I do my part, I (more than once) have impressed bystanders. Not because I'm great, of course....but the gun is. :smart:
Hell is where:
The British are the chefs
The Swiss are the lovers
The French are the mechanics
The Italians make everything run on time
And the Germans are the police

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It's back. They did nothing because it "passed" their testing. Well ,they did replace the rear sight blade with a lower one, as I requested, so there is that.

There's gotta be a way to fix this issue, other than shooting jacketed. Maybe I'll send it off to have the throats reamed.

Smith really offered nothing. No help whatsoever. I guess something has to be visibly broken for them to fix it.
Hell is where:
The British are the chefs
The Swiss are the lovers
The French are the mechanics
The Italians make everything run on time
And the Germans are the police

Re: More leading woes with 629-New picture

74
beaurrr wrote:It's back. They did nothing because it "passed" their testing. Well ,they did replace the rear sight blade with a lower one, as I requested, so there is that.

There's gotta be a way to fix this issue, other than shooting jacketed. Maybe I'll send it off to have the throats reamed.

Smith really offered nothing. No help whatsoever. I guess something has to be visibly broken for them to fix it.
The only thing I can suggest is fire lapping at this point.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: More leading woes with 629-New picture

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FrontSight wrote:
beaurrr wrote:It's back. They did nothing because it "passed" their testing. Well ,they did replace the rear sight blade with a lower one, as I requested, so there is that.

There's gotta be a way to fix this issue, other than shooting jacketed. Maybe I'll send it off to have the throats reamed.

Smith really offered nothing. No help whatsoever. I guess something has to be visibly broken for them to fix it.
The only thing I can suggest is fire lapping at this point.
I did quite a bit of firelapping before I sent it off. Couldn't really see any difference. Maybe I need to shoot a few hundred jacketed bullets.... I have about 4000 rounds through this gun but all of them have been cast. So, is it possible the bore just needs some polishing/breaking in? Smith really couldn't or wouldn't offer even the slightest little bit of advice.

I may try a harder alloy. My bullets are typically quite soft, but I can make some really hot 357 loads with very soft bullets and there's no real leading. Not sure why this gun leads as much as it does.

Accuracy is really quite good. One thing I did learn recently is that shooting a few mousefart loads, using the same soft cast bullets, will clear out a lot of the lead remarkably well. I guess I could shoot a few of those here and there.

I have a chronometer on order. That might shed some light. Maybe my loads are hotter than I think they are.
Hell is where:
The British are the chefs
The Swiss are the lovers
The French are the mechanics
The Italians make everything run on time
And the Germans are the police

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