Refinishing

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I've got a 40 year old pistol that the bluing is in pretty bad shape. It's got the regular muzzle wear you'd expect, but I wanted to do a deep clean, so I soaked it in rubbing alcohol to completely desiccate it, and that revealed tiny dots of wear through along the slide that have a little bit of rust, and I'm very worried they'll turn into pits. I've known it needs to be refinished, but now I feel like it can't be delayed very long at all.

As I said, it's an old gun, but I hope to have it for many years and maybe give it to my kids. Nothing lasts forever, but if I'm spending time and money on this I just want to do it once and not do it again. I'd been thinking hard chrome, since that should last the rest of my life and, if legends are true, maybe longer. But, while the slide is steel, the frame is an aluminum alloy, which it is my understanding can't be chromed. I'd have to get it finished a different way, and I'm not sure anything could match the color of the chrome. I don't mind two tone guns, but I'm a fan of uniformity and sometimes plainness.

When I've investigated chroming, it seems that there are one or two shops that do it, the gun has to be mailed off and there would be a wait time of a few weeks, and it's not cheap to do. Now, if it's truly a one time cost then $250 to $300 isn't hard to swallow, but I'd like to know if there are other options that might be quicker and cheaper but still last a long time, especially if they can be done by a common gunsmith locally.

Re: Refinishing

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A local gunsmith with bluing tanks can refinish it for you- involves a detail strip, sand blast, and a time or two in the tanks to get the finish done. Not a hard job for someone with the experience and right tools, but it does take a detail oriented person, and if you find a gunsmith who isn't one, run the hell away.
“Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.”
- Maya Angelou

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Re: Refinishing

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You can safely use 0000 steel wool with Hoppe's #9 to g-e-n-t-l-y work on the rust spots. if you put a little magnet in the middle of the steel wool, you won't be picking steel wool out of the gun for a week. Some guns take cold bluing very well, some do not. Here's a pic of a gun that had almost no blue on it that I blued with Oxpho-Blue after draw filing most of the pits out of it:
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Haenel-Schmeisser-M1.jpg

Re: Refinishing

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Amusingly, most cold bluing formulas are based on formulas from the 1930's (with the Mercury left out). Consequently they work on OLD guns better. Old is 1970 and earlier for the most part. Good quality cold blues do a combination of coloring with selenium and copper, and rust. Using steel wool to apply the cold blue seems to produce a much more durable finish. Be gentle with the steel wool. Very gentle.

Re: Refinishing

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A couple of questions:
Is it something you do, or intend to, carry frequently? Or is it more of a limited use, yearly hunting or target shooting, type of situation?
Are you set on a hard chrome-like color or was that choice more about longevity of the finish?

As mention by others, bluing done by someone that knows what they're doing or the DIY cold bluing can turn out great.

If you're looking for something maybe slightly more wallet friendly I'd suggest finding a local shop that applies Cerakote. Applied properly it provides great surface protection (can't rust if there's no way for water to get to the metal); it's incredibly durable; and, if you're inclined to care about such things, it's available in a variety of color options.
He roughed us, then he cuffed us
And he took us off to jail
No picture on a poster, no reward, and no bail

Re: Refinishing

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Home blue.jpg
Home blue.jpg (26.78 KiB) Viewed 3440 times
I did this with cold bluing. I took my time, cleaned each piece, heated it up, etc. It looked great but didn't last any time at all.
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Puffing up is no substitute for smarts but it's a common home remedy

Re: Refinishing

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Simmer down wrote:
Home blue.jpg
I did this with cold bluing. I took my time, cleaned each piece, heated it up, etc. It looked great but didn't last any time at all.
Did you oil it using steel wool? I cold blued some tools that get used a lot, and the blue held up very well. Of course, the individual alloy will affect the success of the cold bluing. A rust resistant alloy will not cold blue well.

Re: Refinishing

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pokute wrote:
Simmer down wrote:
Home blue.jpg
I did this with cold bluing. I took my time, cleaned each piece, heated it up, etc. It looked great but didn't last any time at all.
Did you oil it using steel wool? I cold blued some tools that get used a lot, and the blue held up very well. Of course, the individual alloy will affect the success of the cold bluing. A rust resistant alloy will not cold blue well.
Followed all directions. It's also a gun that gets shot and cleaned. I might clean too hard and too often.
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Puffing up is no substitute for smarts but it's a common home remedy

Re: Refinishing

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Simmer down wrote:
pokute wrote:
Simmer down wrote:
Home blue.jpg
I did this with cold bluing. I took my time, cleaned each piece, heated it up, etc. It looked great but didn't last any time at all.
Did you oil it using steel wool? I cold blued some tools that get used a lot, and the blue held up very well. Of course, the individual alloy will affect the success of the cold bluing. A rust resistant alloy will not cold blue well.
Followed all directions. It's also a gun that gets shot and cleaned. I might clean too hard and too often.
They make a dozen different formulas because the actual alloys vary quite a bit. I've had plenty of failures with cold bluing. Sometimes it just wipes right off!

Re: Refinishing

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Darwinchip wrote:If you're looking for something maybe slightly more wallet friendly I'd suggest finding a local shop that applies Cerakote. Applied properly it provides great surface protection (can't rust if there's no way for water to get to the metal); it's incredibly durable; and, if you're inclined to care about such things, it's available in a variety of color options.
If it's going to last, cost isn't a major concern. I've been around a lot of people that bought shitty stuff to save a buck, and that always costs more in the end. If I chrome it it will certainly not be for the color, it will be for durability.

Does cerakote take well to alloys?
pokute wrote:You can safely use 0000 steel wool with Hoppe's #9 to g-e-n-t-l-y work on the rust spots. if you put a little magnet in the middle of the steel wool, you won't be picking steel wool out of the gun for a week. Some guns take cold bluing very well, some do not. Here's a pic of a gun that had almost no blue on it that I blued with Oxpho-Blue after draw filing most of the pits out of it:
I'm not going to take steel wool to anything that I intend to have for the rest of my life, that's just not something I can do. I'll let a professional do it if it is a necessary step.

Re: Refinishing

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Bang wrote:If it's going to last, cost isn't a major concern. I've been around a lot of people that bought shitty stuff to save a buck, and that always costs more in the end. If I chrome it it will certainly not be for the color, it will be for durability.

Does cerakote take well to alloys?
We routinely apply it to steels, aluminums (alumini?), polymers, and just about anything else gun parts are made of at the shop where I work to great success. The key is getting a good, clean, dry surface on which to apply it. So long as the prep is done right, particularly sandblasting the surface, there isn't much cerakote won't apply to nicely.
He roughed us, then he cuffed us
And he took us off to jail
No picture on a poster, no reward, and no bail

Re: Refinishing

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Bang wrote:
pokute wrote:If you want a really fine finish, and cost is secondary to quality, you want to call Bob Cogan, the master himself: http://www.apwcogan.com/ He is also a master gunsmith.
Interesting, looks like he does all major finish types. Any personal experience with his shop?
Uh-oh... You caught me breaking my own rule about halfway. I wrote that based on discussion with Jim Dolson, a custom pistol collector and dealer, AND based on the fit and finish of my chromed Grizzly, which was accurized and chromed by Cogan about 20 years ago:
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Re: Refinishing

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321FLSurfer wrote:Have you looked into a PVD finish? I recently acquired a gun with this finish and have been pleased as punch. I bet poke can break down the Chem side for you but for me it was beautiful, etchable and resilient to mistreatment.
P(hysical)V(apor)D(eposition) or C(hemical)VD are techniques related to "sputtering", which people here familiar with welding will have heard of. There are actually a variety of materials that can be applied, and there are several different techniques to do it.

Almost everyone has heard of "powder coating", where an object is coated with charged (think static electricity) paint particles that are fused with solvent vapor or heat in air. Well, PVD/CVD (and a related technology - Parylene - Invented by a friend of mine, John DelMonte, a great polymer scientist) does something similar, but under "high" vacuum. The vacuum prevents gases present in the air (like Oxygen) from getting in between the part and the coating. The coating itself is chosen for it's affinity to the material that the part is made of, and for the chemical and physical properties desired in the coating; Durabilty (abrasion resistance), lubricity, non-reactivity, non-solubiity, and APPEARANCE.

The coating itself is either physically deposited via a voltage gradient (as in sputtering), or by heating the part to the point where the coating precursor decomposes on contact; OR reacts chemically with the part (and possibly other chemicals or a catalyst) to form an oxide, carbide, boride, nitride, or other durable layer.

These coatings typically have specific thicknesses - Some are applied only atoms thick, and can be applied to closely fitted parts, some can be applied more thickly to build up worn areas.

An operator working with these processes should have at least a year of college chemistry so that he can recognize problems and solve them effectively and rationally. A shop engaged in this kind of work should be scrupulously clean, because there is no dust or contamination released into the shop area from the reactors. Precursor chemicals should be stored where there will be minimal casualties should their containers be damaged. YOU don't want to become a party to a lawsuit because the shop owner bails off to Mexico when the shop blows sky high while your job is being done: "The customer told me to do something that made it blow up!".

Ask me about a specific coating or process when you find one that looks nice to you. Bob Cogan's Chrome work includes his deep knowledge of gun alloys, surface prep, and the effect on the function of the gun that a slippery chrome surface has, and it will last two lifetimes. Again, that's based on my evaluation of his work after the fact, and the testimony of Jim "45 WinMag" Dolson.

Re: Refinishing

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321FLSurfer wrote:You are the man Poke. We gonna get you a spacesuit and on some LISA?? 2030 LGC representn in space!!!!
LISA was born two... Three doors down the hall from me. Tom Prince is an awesome scientist, and a very popular professor at Caltech, but if LISA gets funded, there will be a huge sucking sound as everything else gets defunded (If the Mars folks don't suck the budget dry first - The Planetary society is a damn big rooting section for anything Mars). I hope I'm retired before then.

Hmm... Thinking about it, the same office where LISA was born was passed from Tom to Barry Barish, so that's also the office where the ILC was born.

By the way, we just won the Princess of Asturias prize. I'm hoping it has an awesome supercamp certificate!

Re: Refinishing

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Bang wrote:
Darwinchip wrote:If you're looking for something maybe slightly more wallet friendly I'd suggest finding a local shop that applies Cerakote. Applied properly it provides great surface protection (can't rust if there's no way for water to get to the metal); it's incredibly durable; and, if you're inclined to care about such things, it's available in a variety of color options.
If it's going to last, cost isn't a major concern. I've been around a lot of people that bought shitty stuff to save a buck, and that always costs more in the end. If I chrome it it will certainly not be for the color, it will be for durability.

Does cerakote take well to alloys?
pokute wrote:You can safely use 0000 steel wool with Hoppe's #9 to g-e-n-t-l-y work on the rust spots. if you put a little magnet in the middle of the steel wool, you won't be picking steel wool out of the gun for a week. Some guns take cold bluing very well, some do not. Here's a pic of a gun that had almost no blue on it that I blued with Oxpho-Blue after draw filing most of the pits out of it:
I'm not going to take steel wool to anything that I intend to have for the rest of my life, that's just not something I can do. I'll let a professional do it if it is a necessary step.
Four-zero steel wool is extremely fine. Gentle, long strokes and you'll never know it was used. By the way, the uneven color on the Haenel Schmeisser is oil... The blue is very dark and even. Same finish as on the HS Model B.

Re: Refinishing

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Because this thread is just called "refinishing", I feel like I should cover the other method. There are a number of finishes available these days that are, in a word, paint. Paint has to have the usual properties required for gun finishes, PLUS high resistance to chipping and high "peel strength".

I believe that an intelligent, experienced person can paint a gun and get first-rate results. I also believe it's much easier to get first-rate results by painting compared to other methods. But so far, I haven't seen a gun with a paint job nearly as durable as the one on my cheap tool box. What this probably means is that the quality shops are unable to make their presence felt in a veritable sea of Bubba shops.

I'd say anybody wanting to sell Cerakote, etc. should be willing to hand you a square of steel, Al, or plastic with their finish on it to scrape, chip, and dent to your satisfaction.

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