Re: POSTAL MATCH No. 2 -- DETAILS

26
Fukshot wrote:Do we need a different category for iron sights?
Good question. I talked that over with Paladin before we restarted the match series. His position in the matches he ran was that iron and red-dot sights should be in the same division.

Bullseye competitons have no separate section for red dots because the red dots don't magnify. Shooters with diminished eyesight find them easier than straining with iron sights, but any advantage gained in that way seems to be negated by the much greater awareness of wobble adding to the problem of when to break the shot.

What do others think?
When you side with a man, you stay with him -- Pike Bishop
Image

Re: POSTAL MATCH No. 2 -- DETAILS

27
I've never shot a red dot (yet) so I don't know. But it seems that if someone chooses red dots because they help him shoot better than with irons, that it might warrant a separate category.

(Apologies for the gendered pronoun. I'm not up to dealing with the english today.)
Image


.22LR - .380ACP - 9mm - .38Spl/.357Mag - .45ACP - 5.56NATO - .308Win - .45-70Gov - 12Ga
Join!

Re: POSTAL MATCH No. 2 -- DETAILS

28
fknauss wrote:I've never shot a red dot (yet) so I don't know. But it seems that if someone chooses red dots because they help him shoot better than with irons, that it might warrant a separate category.

(Apologies for the gendered pronoun. I'm not up to dealing with the english today.)
I understand the concern, and I've researched this a number of times -- using Firing Line, Smith & Wesson forum, NRA rule books, local club rules, Bullseye-L forum, and many others.

The conventional pistol matches I've looked over all now seem to allow red dots in the same division as iron sights.

Here's one quote from the Firing Line forum:

"For NRA or CMP indoor bullseye shooting today, you'll see 5 red-dots on the line for every "iron-sight" guy. I think that aging eyes have a lot to do with that."

And this is from Bullseye expert John Dreyer:

"...in this game of bullseye shooting, I have seen more military shooters over the past 15 years at all of the big matches using the basic UltraDot model [red-dot] than any other sight - and without question, these guys are truly the pros of the sport."

The NRA prohibition on "electronic sights" applies to lasers.

Even so, if participation in our matches increases, and members feel strongly about the issue, I will either take a poll or post a new topic for discussion. I'm open to any sensible changes if they're needed/wanted. Right now, I don't think participation is high enough to warrant another two divisions (red dot for both rimfire and centerfire).

Please keep posting thoughts and opinions on this question.
When you side with a man, you stay with him -- Pike Bishop
Image

Re: POSTAL MATCH No. 2 -- DETAILS

30
I'm definitely a better shot with red dots than I am with irons- at the same time, there's no reason to penalize folks who's vision is hitting the age wall. I also shoot better with fiber optic front sights, which is similar in concept, but adds less weight. Is it different enough from peeps and fiber optic to warrant it's own category? I'd lean toward not.

The Appleseed event I went to last fall was open to whatever to get the rifleman patch, and if other events don't put them into separate categories as you've noted, I'd say leave it in one bucket.
“Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.”
- Maya Angelou

Image

Re: POSTAL MATCH No. 2 -- DETAILS

31
Good points, all.

I tend to agree with shinzen, at least for now.

But I understand fknauss's point, and I'm thinking it over again.

I also like Fukshot's thought about increasing participation, though I wonder just how many members have both options readily available.

Adding a red dot to most semi-autos is still a pain unless you buy an optics-ready gun. If the pistol has an auxiliary pic rail on the bottom of the barrel, you can use an external frame mount --- big and unsightly but the good ones hold zero, are excellent for conventional pistol matches, and leave your rear sight in place. If you have that sort of set-up, you can pop off the red dot and shoot with open sights.

If not, you either have to install a dovetail mount (only possible on some models), have the slide milled (not cheap), or have a gunsmith drill and tap the frame for a special mount.

On semis, most shooters choose a reflex red-dot sight -- lighter and less bothersome but often expensive as hell. Their real value is in quick sight acquisition -- and they can be easily holstered so they're usable in other kinds of events. But the jury is still out on how well some of them endure the beating they take from the slide's action.

Smith & Wesson revolvers made in recent years are pre-drilled for a rail, but you have to remove the rear sight. You can mount a reflex sight or a sturdy red-dot tube (but you'll have a helluva time using a tube in the run-and-gun events).

I'm sure most of you know all of the above. My point is only that I imagine lots of members either shoot open sights or have made the choice and investment to add red dots to their favorite guns, and they could not easily shoot in both divisions.

I could be totally wrong. Seriously. A lot of us have multiple pistols and types of pistols, so maybe enough folks have at least one of each (open and red dot) -- in which case, Fukshot's point is really well taken.

Keep posting info and ideas. And add anything you know about alternative mounting schemes for red dots.
When you side with a man, you stay with him -- Pike Bishop
Image

Re: POSTAL MATCH No. 2 -- DETAILS

33
Fukshot wrote:I know some gun geeks who are gear heads who would probably put a red dot on one of their pistols if it let them shoot one more round in the postal.

Don't forget the 1911 scope mounts that attach under a grip panel.
You're right. I did forget those, and they're really common at matches. Oops.

Well, you are making a strong case.

Let's keep talking.
When you side with a man, you stay with him -- Pike Bishop
Image

Re: POSTAL MATCH No. 2 -- DETAILS

34
Depending on participation, it would be fairly simple to do three categories, for rimfire and for centerfire:

Open
Irons
Red Dot/Reflex

Could have winners in each category, with the Open category just being the top overall score, regardless of sights used. For that matter, you could even just do production only pistols for irons, then for the open categories allow for whatever trigger/spring/unobtanium random parts they felt like adding. Might appeal to said gear heads and gun geeks.
“Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.”
- Maya Angelou

Image

Re: POSTAL MATCH No. 2 -- DETAILS

35
shinzen wrote:Depending on participation, it would be fairly simple to do three categories, for rimfire and for centerfire:

Open
Irons
Red Dot/Reflex

Could have winners in each category, with the Open category just being the top overall score, regardless of sights used. For that matter, you could even just do production only pistols for irons, then for the open categories allow for whatever trigger/spring/unobtanium random parts they felt like adding. Might appeal to said gear heads and gun geeks.
You guys are all making great suggestions. Maybe next match will be pistol again, and we'll try either an open division or dual divisions -- or some variant.

Also, tell me what sort of rifle match you'd like to shoot -- maybe we could run both pistol and rifle contests during the summer months when folks can shoot a lot outdoors.

I haven't been a serious rifle shooter for many years, so I welcome any and all suggestions. I want to put on matches that people really enjoy shooting.
When you side with a man, you stay with him -- Pike Bishop
Image

Re: POSTAL MATCH No. 2 -- DETAILS

36
Paco wrote:
shinzen wrote:Depending on participation, it would be fairly simple to do three categories, for rimfire and for centerfire:

Open
Irons
Red Dot/Reflex

Could have winners in each category, with the Open category just being the top overall score, regardless of sights used. For that matter, you could even just do production only pistols for irons, then for the open categories allow for whatever trigger/spring/unobtanium random parts they felt like adding. Might appeal to said gear heads and gun geeks.
You guys are all making great suggestions. Maybe next match will be pistol again, and we'll try either an open division or dual divisions -- or some variant.

Also, tell me what sort of rifle match you'd like to shoot -- maybe we could run both pistol and rifle contests during the summer months when folks can shoot a lot outdoors.

I haven't been a serious rifle shooter for many years, so I welcome any and all suggestions. I want to put on matches that people really enjoy shooting.
Yes, there has to be a division that Fukshot won't be in. Might be my only chance.
Image


Everything is bigger in Texas
Texas LTC Holder
Postal Match Winner: 2017 Q1 Rimfire, 7 Yd Division, Glass, S&W Victory 22

Re: POSTAL MATCH No. 2 -- DETAILS

39
shinzen wrote:
Catalyst wrote:
Yes, there has to be a division that Fukshot won't be in. Might be my only chance.
:roflmao: Nice.

She sure as hell can shoot. And, given her varied abilities, and her deep knowledge of pistols in particular, I doubt there's any division she couldn't fix up some rig to use.

Let's face it like mature adults: We're doomed.
When you side with a man, you stay with him -- Pike Bishop
Image

Re: POSTAL MATCH No. 2 -- DETAILS

40
Ok, since the only one I own is an antique that gives me hand cramps, I hereby bow out of the rimfire handgun competitions in the interest of broadening the competitive field.

Paco and I also discussed introducing classes of competitiors, but higher levels of participation are needed to make that practical. Get more people to shoot and you won't have to shoot against me.

I also bet that nearly any of you could beat me if you read the USAMU pistol manual and shot 50 rounds of serious practice every week for a year.

Re: POSTAL MATCH No. 2 -- DETAILS

41
I also bet that nearly any of you could beat me if you read the USAMU pistol manual and shot 50 rounds of serious practice every week for a year.
I'm working on it!

I think I'm running up against the fitness boundary, where being a fat out of shape slob is affecting my body's ability to keep shit lined up. Not completely, but it's becoming a factor.

Time to follow chapter eight.
Image


.22LR - .380ACP - 9mm - .38Spl/.357Mag - .45ACP - 5.56NATO - .308Win - .45-70Gov - 12Ga
Join!

Re: POSTAL MATCH No. 2 -- DETAILS

43
Shooting weekly made a big difference for me. Since moving to Sac and working on the house I'm down to once a month, and my shooting shows it. I've developed all sorts of things that negatively impact my shooting. Once things settle a bit, I hope to get back to weekly.
“Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.”
- Maya Angelou

Image

Re: POSTAL MATCH No. 2 -- DETAILS

44
Fukshot wrote:Ok, since the only one I own is an antique that gives me hand cramps, I hereby bow out of the rimfire handgun competitions in the interest of broadening the competitive field.

Paco and I also discussed introducing classes of competitiors, but higher levels of participation are needed to make that practical. Get more people to shoot and you won't have to shoot against me.

I also bet that nearly any of you could beat me if you read the USAMU pistol manual and shot 50 rounds of serious practice every week for a year.
Great advice! But don't bow out of the rimfire. Hell, I'll lend you a Mark II (tho I'm sure you can borrow one closer at hand). We need great shooting to keep everyone challenged.
When you side with a man, you stay with him -- Pike Bishop
Image

Re: POSTAL MATCH No. 2 -- DETAILS

45
Paco wrote:
Fukshot wrote:Ok, since the only one I own is an antique that gives me hand cramps, I hereby bow out of the rimfire handgun competitions in the interest of broadening the competitive field.

Paco and I also discussed introducing classes of competitiors, but higher levels of participation are needed to make that practical. Get more people to shoot and you won't have to shoot against me.

I also bet that nearly any of you could beat me if you read the USAMU pistol manual and shot 50 rounds of serious practice every week for a year.
Great advice! But don't bow out of the rimfire. Hell, I'll lend you a Mark II (tho I'm sure you can borrow one closer at hand). We need great shooting to keep everyone challenged.
Fukshot bowing out?! What you scarrrred now??? jk
Image


Everything is bigger in Texas
Texas LTC Holder
Postal Match Winner: 2017 Q1 Rimfire, 7 Yd Division, Glass, S&W Victory 22

Re: POSTAL MATCH No. 2 -- DETAILS

48
Fukshot wrote:I'm trying to shoot these matches with non-competition guns. I don't object to shooting irons against dot sight shooters.

I know I can shoot matches like this better with a red dot. I bet that's true for most of us. My thinking is that maybe more categories means more shooting? I know I'd shoot both.


Yeah, I'd have to agree with this. I too would shoot both.
Red dots are a bit faster but as noted mostly they compete evenly with iron sights.
Their biggest advantage (at least for me) is for aging eyes that don't really see iron sights all that well anymore. :see_stars:
Merle from PA


Image
Image

Re: POSTAL MATCH No. 2 -- DETAILS

49
Fukshot wrote:I know some gun geeks who are gear heads who would probably put a red dot on one of their pistols if it let them shoot one more round in the postal.

Don't forget the 1911 scope mounts that attach under a grip panel.


Recently I looked for one of those, but couldn't find one. Any clues as to where I can find one? Thanks! :beer2:
Merle from PA


Image
Image

Re: POSTAL MATCH No. 2 -- DETAILS

50
Paco wrote:
shinzen wrote:Depending on participation, it would be fairly simple to do three categories, for rimfire and for centerfire:

Open
Irons
Red Dot/Reflex

Could have winners in each category, with the Open category just being the top overall score, regardless of sights used. For that matter, you could even just do production only pistols for irons, then for the open categories allow for whatever trigger/spring/unobtanium random parts they felt like adding. Might appeal to said gear heads and gun geeks.
You guys are all making great suggestions. Maybe next match will be pistol again, and we'll try either an open division or dual divisions -- or some variant.

Also, tell me what sort of rifle match you'd like to shoot -- maybe we could run both pistol and rifle contests during the summer months when folks can shoot a lot outdoors.

I haven't been a serious rifle shooter for many years, so I welcome any and all suggestions. I want to put on matches that people really enjoy shooting.


I shoot mostly old military rifles in postal matches, so that would be a natural for me. :mrgreen:
Merle from PA


Image
Image

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests