Re: Home Defense Shotgun Dead

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Which brings us to the most important shortcoming of all: operator error.
Truth.

We made a big stink in town when two years ago we applied for and were granted a zoning exemption for an alligator farm. Lots of publicity. For quite a while now, no solicitors. Perhaps the "trespassers will be eaten" sign puts them off...

CDFingers
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like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: Home Defense Shotgun Dead

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At least what they are proposing as a replacement looks pretty cool...

I think mitch down at mesa tactical could cook up a pretty nice 20 gauge home defense rig that would be legal and effective. I also saw a .410 Saiga semi auto a while back, but i might worry about jams...

While i am not anywhere where home defense is an issue, I like the idea of loading a home defense shotgun with ammo of increasing lethality.

Something like rocksalt, pba pellets, buckshotx3 or something like that.

:think: :think: :think: :think: :think: :think: :think: :think: :think: :think:
Bleeding Heart Liberal with Second Amendment Benefits.
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Re: Home Defense Shotgun Dead

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I read that article and I think the advice that using a shotgun for home defense is essentially the same as getting a big dog to guard your house.

Admittedly, shotguns look scary and the pump action sound is scary. I know this from experience from when I parked my overheated car in a dark parking lot and I was subsequently surrounded by police cars and officers racking their riot guns while I waited for the engine to cool off.

However, after watching very experienced pump shotgun shooters short stroke their guns in competition where there is stress to load as quickly as possible, I think that operating a pump is not quite as easy as home defense 'experts' advocate. Shouldering a shotgun is another skill that requires work and shooting you pistol grip Mossberg also requires skill. I agree that a shotgun will hit something, but I'm not sure it will be the intended target.

I haven't fired an AR pistol, but they do look like fun. Like a shotgun, I think that it suffers from the same shortcomings when it comes down to home defense. Racking, safety, aiming - all these take practice to use effectively. I don't think that an AR pistol is a replacement for a pump shotgun.

For me, I rely on my M&P or Glock and a 800 lumen flashlight and a lot of practice. Pick a weapon, learn how to use and practice shooting strong hand only a lot.

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The Sig MPXs are on sale around here for $1600-$1800.

If I felt the need to go with a higher capacity longer barrel 9mm, I'd get one of these. https://www.classicfirearms.com/pol-pps ... 2-35rdmags Then pick up a police trade in Glock 9mm handgun, and 5,000 rounds to practice with instead. You'd spend roughly the same.

I know I'm not the most coherent person when waking up. A DA revolver is just so simple. I'd probably forget to cock the hammer back on my shotguns (or anything relatively complicated at 2 am). If I needed more than 6 shots and didn't have some time to reload, the family is probably screwed since we aren't in the same part of the house at any given time.

There have been 3 home robberies in Omaha stopped by armed homeowners in the last several months. From memory; one held a gun on the robber until the police arrived, one fired a shot then the police caught the guy running away, one killed the guy with a 380. Those are Barney Fife type ammo numbers.

I guess the point is, I don't see the need for 30 rounds of 9mm. I'd move if I had to live in a place where it was needed to sleep at night.
Brian

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I keep a light and a laser on a 5.25 inch 9 mm XDM with 19 rounds of Gold Dot +P. I see no reason for more for any conceivable (within reason) problem inside the home.

OTOH, when there are noises out by the stable or the coop, I take a .410 pump loaded with number 4 buckshot backed by 00 buck. It also has a light and a laser. It is gentle enough for my diminutive spouse to handle but still delivers sufficient hurt.
Last edited by Bucolic on Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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spara wrote:I read that article and I think the advice that using a shotgun for home defense is essentially the same as getting a big dog to guard your house.

Admittedly, shotguns look scary and the pump action sound is scary. I know this from experience from when I parked my overheated car in a dark parking lot and I was subsequently surrounded by police cars and officers racking their riot guns while I waited for the engine to cool off.

However, after watching very experienced pump shotgun shooters short stroke their guns in competition where there is stress to load as quickly as possible, I think that operating a pump is not quite as easy as home defense 'experts' advocate. Shouldering a shotgun is another skill that requires work and shooting you pistol grip Mossberg also requires skill. I agree that a shotgun will hit something, but I'm not sure it will be the intended target.

I haven't fired an AR pistol, but they do look like fun. Like a shotgun, I think that it suffers from the same shortcomings when it comes down to home defense. Racking, safety, aiming - all these take practice to use effectively. I don't think that an AR pistol is a replacement for a pump shotgun.

For me, I rely on my M&P or Glock and a 800 lumen flashlight and a lot of practice. Pick a weapon, learn how to use and practice shooting strong hand only a lot.
If an AR pistol is as loud as my AK pistol, both you and the intruder will be deaf. I only shoot my AK pistol at the outdoor range if their is not a crowd. It is so god awful loud.
EAT,SLEEP,RANGE,REPEAT

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spara wrote:Pick a weapon, learn how to use and practice shooting strong hand only a lot.
This. My M1 Carbine with JSP loads is turning into this for me. Good truck rifle, good home defense rifle; rather appropriate conisidering it's essentially a PDW before they called them that.
Live like you will never die, love like you've never been hurt, dance
like no-one is watching.
Alex White

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I'm shocked their was no stab at Biden in their. :roll:

It reads like an advertisement for Sig. The lack of mentioning any other possibilities makes it blatant.

Not that I disagree, most folks would probably be better served by a reliable autoloading handgun than anything else. No risk of short stroking, easy to move around with, easily available, easy to train with.

A carbine in a pistol caliber still requires the whole two hands thing.
"No one can build his security upon the nobleness of another person."
-Willa Cather

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The biggest issue with using a carbine or a pistol for that matter, is clear lines of fire if you live in the city like i do.

Just about in any direction you have walls that if penetrated by a round, someone is likely to be on the other side of it.

fwiw...
Bleeding Heart Liberal with Second Amendment Benefits.
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Re: Home Defense Shotgun Dead

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drigeba wrote:The biggest issue with using a carbine or a pistol for that matter, is clear lines of fire if you live in the city like i do.

Just about in any direction you have walls that if penetrated by a round, someone is likely to be on the other side of it.

fwiw...
Agreed, I'm surrounded on three sides by other apartments and the fourth is just a small pond with other buildings less than 100 yards away. It makes any use of a pistol for defence a very nerve wracking experience. One I'd probably think twice about.

What this article doesn't discuss is the use of a smaller bore shotgun. Why not use a 20 gauge instead of a 12 gauge? Less recoil in a lighter package.
"No one can build his security upon the nobleness of another person."
-Willa Cather

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drigeba wrote:The biggest issue with using a carbine or a pistol for that matter, is clear lines of fire if you live in the city like i do.

Just about in any direction you have walls that if penetrated by a round, someone is likely to be on the other side of it.

fwiw...

Buckshot still goes through about 5 interior walls. So it makes no real difference. I'd prefer the single slug over spread as it would have less of a chance of hitting someone on the other side.
All problems can be solved with a copious amount of high explosives.

Re: Home Defense Shotgun Dead

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KnightsFan wrote:
drigeba wrote:The biggest issue with using a carbine or a pistol for that matter, is clear lines of fire if you live in the city like i do.

Just about in any direction you have walls that if penetrated by a round, someone is likely to be on the other side of it.

fwiw...
Agreed, I'm surrounded on three sides by other apartments and the fourth is just a small pond with other buildings less than 100 yards away. It makes any use of a pistol for defence a very nerve wracking experience. One I'd probably think twice about.

What this article doesn't discuss is the use of a smaller bore shotgun. Why not use a 20 gauge instead of a 12 gauge? Less recoil in a lighter package.
While there's less recoil the risk of over-penetration from a given piece of buckshot fired from a 20-gauge is no less than from a 12-gauge - there are just a couple fewer pellets. The issues of handling/operating a long gun in a confined space are equally a concern.

That said I doubt the delta between the damage dealt by 12- and a 20- gauge is going to be the difference between life and death for just about any home owner ever and that for those who aren't as recoil-tolerant a 20-gauge might be a lot more approachable for practice and training - which has- and does- make all the difference.

At the end of the day any projectile that's lethal enough to consistently stop a determined, full-sized adult attacker is also going to potentially penetrate residential walls. Some platform/projectile combinations are clearly worse than others, but IMO it's just a part of background risk of being able/willing to defend the life of one's self or family.

Re: Home Defense Shotgun Dead

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swissdog wrote:
KnightsFan wrote:
drigeba wrote:The biggest issue with using a carbine or a pistol for that matter, is clear lines of fire if you live in the city like i do.

Just about in any direction you have walls that if penetrated by a round, someone is likely to be on the other side of it.

fwiw...
Agreed, I'm surrounded on three sides by other apartments and the fourth is just a small pond with other buildings less than 100 yards away. It makes any use of a pistol for defence a very nerve wracking experience. One I'd probably think twice about.

What this article doesn't discuss is the use of a smaller bore shotgun. Why not use a 20 gauge instead of a 12 gauge? Less recoil in a lighter package.
While there's less recoil the risk of over-penetration from a given piece of buckshot fired from a 20-gauge is no less than from a 12-gauge - there are just a couple fewer pellets. The issues of handling/operating a long gun in a confined space are equally a concern.

That said I doubt the delta between the damage dealt by 12- and a 20- gauge is going to be the difference between life and death for just about any home owner ever and that for those who aren't as recoil-tolerant a 20-gauge might be a lot more approachable for practice and training - which has- and does- make all the difference.

At the end of the day any projectile that's lethal enough to consistently stop a determined, full-sized adult attacker is also going to potentially penetrate residential walls. Some platform/projectile combinations are clearly worse than others, but IMO it's just a part of background risk of being able/willing to defend the life of one's self or family.
If you are in a life or death defense situation, line of fire might not even occur to you unless you are highly trained or former spec ops.

What about using "frangible" projectiles? I have seen them referenced in load manuals, but never on the shelf or in factory loads.

If the bullet fragments when it hits any resistance then it seem like that might be a good option. The biggest problem would be finding factory loads, since it my understanding that using reloads in any defense scenario gives the other side an advantage in court. (There goes my non-lethal rocksalt loads) But i have seen factory rubber buckshot loads.

Admittedly, the use of a non-lethal option might not be advisable, especially if the intruder is also armed. If you have to fire the weapon, then you can't really hold back. (That's 2 retractions in case you are counting)

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Re: Home Defense Shotgun Dead

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drigeba wrote: If you are in a life or death defense situation, line of fire might not even occur to you unless you are highly trained or former spec ops.
Pretty much my thoughts exactly. I'd like to think that during mental exercises or practice that I'd try to work out and/or visualize the least risky path beforehand, but the truth is that in these kinds of situations that just about everything (except for survival) is out the window - no battle plan surviving contact with the enemy and all.
What about using "frangible" projectiles? I have seen them referenced in load manuals, but never on the shelf or in factory loads.
I thought these were better at managing ricochets rather than reducing penetration (thus the requirement for certain ranges). Again, though, if it -did- reduce penetration to the point where it wouldn't readily punch through a couple of layers of drywall would it be able to reliably stop a determined attacker?
If the bullet fragments when it hits any resistance then it seem like that might be a good option. The biggest problem would be finding factory loads, since it my understanding that using reloads in any defense scenario gives the other side an advantage in court. (There goes my non-lethal rocksalt loads) But i have seen factory rubber buckshot loads.

Admittedly, the use of a non-lethal option might not be advisable, especially if the intruder is also armed. If you have to fire the weapon, then you can't really hold back. (That's 2 retractions in case you are counting)

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Heh... Again, totally with you. There are some fancy options that claim to be magic- the Glaser Safety Slugs and such, but the consensus I've always heard is that they tend to be on the snake-oil side. The strategy I have heard (and tend to prefer) is to stick with the factory loads that LE prefers - either because they've actually been tested (in real life or a ballistics lab), that there's less room for legal shenanigans or both.

Re: Home Defense Shotgun Dead

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IMO, the shotgun is still a great option, and yes an auto loading carbine is a good option as well. The main problem I have is when folks jump on the band wagon of calling one item "The best" while discounting a very good tool that has and still does serve a purpose for defensive work. There are no absolutes in this grand world.

I like to cover all bases. I'm primarily a shotgunner, I've ran pump actions my entire shooting career (hunting, target shooting,ect)

I do have a bit of a bias toward shotguns, and it would be expected because that is the first firearm I was introduced to. As time has gone on I've bought and used handguns and rifles of different action types and calibers. But I won't put any of such down as "not relevant anymore". I'm by no means an expert and will not make a claim to be such.

My observations are that handguns are perfect for situations that most often than not take place at bad breath distances, and shotguns are great for close to medium range work while putting as many projectiles into a target as possible, and rifles are great for placing rounds on target accurately at longer distances. All are great tools to have on hand for many situations.

Personally I own an AR-15 (as well as an S&W 15-22 carbine) and have it for target shooting and hunting, but I don't doubt for a second that it can be used effectively at closer range for defensive work. I have two .410 shotguns setup for home defense due to multiple projectiles being more effective for hitting a moving target (also the light weight and low recoil is an advantage), I also own a Smith&Wesson Governor that can take the same .410 buck loads due to the advantages of firing multiple projectiles per trigger pull and being more portable than my shotguns or AR's (and no I'm not going to say that it's a "pocket shotgun" because it isn't) but it does make for a great defensive option at bad breath range (where the majority of documented defensive handgun uses take place). All have their uses and all will work if the user does their part.

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It occurs to me that a short barreled shotgun would be an ideal hd weapon. Find an older 870 Wingmaster in decent shape for $200-300. Replace springs and such for $25 if inclined. Tax stamp for $200. Cut the barrel off near the end of the magazine.Viola! Have a gunsmith put a high viz sight or a simple post sight and paint it with siteglow or similar product if you like. Lots of cheap aftermarket support for various sling mounts and rails for flashlights.

Drawbacks? Still have the potential short stroke possibility? Get some 12 ga snap caps and rack them 5 gagillion times in a row. Makes the action that much smoother and builds muscle memory.

I suppose the NFA related legal shenanigans would ensue were you to kill or injure an assailant, but perhaps that is a secondary concern?

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