Win 12 & 97 diffs

1
( I changed the title. Will make project log in another thread.)

So I bought a box of Winchester 97 parts, at this moment at my FFL's to be snagged in 9.75 days--California.

The 12 ga. barrel says Winchester 97. However, with it came a Winchester Model 12 gunsmith's book.

I would like to know the main differences between the 97 and the 12. "Exposed hammer" is all I've got. I'm not a shot gun guy, so this is my first. Be gentle with my cherry.

What's the diff?

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: Win 12 & 97 diffs & project log

2
I was in my fav little pawn shop today.they have 2, 97s left at $239 each. Asking price. Bit what I was drooling over was the 2, pre 1914 remington 11s, as well as a nice Stevens , which are browning A5. The Stevens was interesting as is has a machined rear hump to lower it, and an nice looking finger joint with steel on the bottom. All 3 of these were under $200 each. They did have one FN browning a5, lead only barrel in rough shape for $435. Not worth it IMHO ?

Oh If I had money.. Id have to buy a warehouse. Lol

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Re: Win 12 & 97 diffs & project log

3
CDFingers wrote:So I bought a box of Winchester 97 parts, at this moment at my FFL's to be snagged in 9.75 days--California.

The 12 ga. barrel says Winchester 97. However, with it came a Winchester Model 12 gunsmith's book.

I would like to know the main differences between the 97 and the 12. "Exposed hammer" is all I've got. I'm not a shot gun guy, so this is my first. Be gentle with my cherry.

What's the diff?

CDFingers
As far as my limited knowledge of the 12, I understand the barrels , furniture, and a couple parts like magazine and such are interchangeable, but I do believe the 12 has less moving parts.

I was out scanning for a el cheapo pump today to make a pump whippet version out of it. Didnt find anything, and id never cut a 97 or an a5 myself. I want some el cheapo mossberg or higgins type to butcher up.

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Here is what I can do right now.
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This is just my opinion, yours may vary and is no less valid.
- Me -

"I will never claim to be an expert, and it has been my experience that self proclaimed experts are usually self proclaimed."
-Me-

I must proof read more

Re: Win 12 & 97 diffs & project log

4
Cock gun, Push mag tube pin to other side, grab barrel and twist. It comes apart.

I can break it down more if you need other shots.

But both my barrel slide assemblies, as well as others Ive seen all say 1897 Winchester



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"I will never claim to be an expert, and it has been my experience that self proclaimed experts are usually self proclaimed."
-Me-

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Re: Win 12 & 97 diffs & project log

5
I would like to know the difference between the two models.

I have the gunsmith manual for the 12. Just today I found a used 97 manual online, so I ordered it--a week out. I think it will be a fun project.

When I was in high school, I bought a '62 TR4 in a box and built it up. Sweet. Traded it for a 66 Chevy van. Sweeter. Thinking along those lines.

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: Win 12 & 97 diffs & project log

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Well Im trying. Lol. Not much from anyone else yet.

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Here ya go. I dug out my old NRA illustrated firearm assembly handbook.

Mod 12. Mod 97.

Lots of differences.

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About the best I can do. Sorry
This is just my opinion, yours may vary and is no less valid.
- Me -

"I will never claim to be an expert, and it has been my experience that self proclaimed experts are usually self proclaimed."
-Me-

I must proof read more

Re: Win 12 & 97 diffs & project log

7
Just fot a reply back from my dad. He concurred they are vastly different shotguns.

Hope you got all 97 parts. Dont know what you paid, but southside pawn. On Broadway here in St. Louis has a couple decent 97s for around $300. They had 3 for over a year, now they have 2.

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Re: Win 12 & 97 diffs & project log

8
I traded a Turk long rifle I'd had since the 90's, so, good trade. I had too many Mausers...still do.

I'm glad I found that 97 manual. Should be here next week. I take delivery on the 3rd.

I got some parts diagrams off the web, so then I'll check what parts I have and what ones I need. I know I need the tube spring and the plug and so on. I already found those. It's the little parts in the carrier and bolt I don't know about. I found a bayo lug and heat shield on line, but pricey. Basically it's just cosmetic since I'm not going to be shooting enough to actually need the heat shield. I can tune the gun while I a save up. I have many projects in its way, so the shield and lug will have to wait.

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: Win 12 & 97 diffs & project log

9
Well I learned something from my dad. Not all 97s were take downs like mine. Trench and prison guard guns were the common take downs.
I just ASSumed they all were because the manuals show it.

Guess I need to read the words and not just look at the pictures.. Lol.

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-Me-

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Re: Win 12 & 97 diffs & project log

10
The Winchester Model 12 was a re-design by T.C. Johnson, based on JMB's 1893/97 shotgun design which was and is an excellent combat shotgun, they called it the trench sweeper/broom. The 97 has no trigger disconnect, meaning once the trigger is pulled, one can hold the trigger down/in and pump rapidly to fire the remaining shells with absolute devastation. The second thing that comes to mind is the hammer, as mentioned, which is nice for combat because it is easier to lower the hammer than engage/disengage the model 12 safety. The last thing is probably the 97's major drawback - receiver bite. Due to the mechanism, the top of the receiver came back over of the top of the rear stock, right where a users thumb commonly resides. If your hand is not properly positioned on the gun (proper for a 1897 model), you can get bit.

Re: Win 12 & 97 diffs & project log

11
DwnRange wrote:The Winchester Model 12 was a re-design by T.C. Johnson, based on JMB's 1893/97 shotgun design which was and is an excellent combat shotgun, they called it the trench sweeper/broom. The 97 has no trigger disconnect, meaning once the trigger is pulled, one can hold the trigger down/in and pump rapidly to fire the remaining shells with absolute devastation. The second thing that comes to mind is the hammer, as mentioned, which is nice for combat because it is easier to lower the hammer than engage/disengage the model 12 safety. The last thing is probably the 97's major drawback - receiver bite. Due to the mechanism, the top of the receiver came back over of the top of the rear stock, right where a users thumb commonly resides. If your hand is not properly positioned on the gun (proper for a 1897 model), you can get bit.
Did not know about holding the trigger down and pumping the 97. But I'm far to familiar with breach bite. Lol

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-Me-

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Re: Win 12 & 97 diffs & project log

12
DwnRange wrote:The Winchester Model 12 was a re-design by T.C. Johnson, based on JMB's 1893/97 shotgun design which was and is an excellent combat shotgun, they called it the trench sweeper/broom. The 97 has no trigger disconnect, meaning once the trigger is pulled, one can hold the trigger down/in and pump rapidly to fire the remaining shells with absolute devastation. The second thing that comes to mind is the hammer, as mentioned, which is nice for combat because it is easier to lower the hammer than engage/disengage the model 12 safety. The last thing is probably the 97's major drawback - receiver bite. Due to the mechanism, the top of the receiver came back over of the top of the rear stock, right where a users thumb commonly resides. If your hand is not properly positioned on the gun (proper for a 1897 model), you can get bit.
I knew about the slam fire, but not about the receiver bite. Thumb alongside like with some of my shorter milsurps--prevents my thumb from hitting me in my nose.

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: Win 12 & 97 diffs & project log

13
CDFingers wrote:
DwnRange wrote:The Winchester Model 12 was a re-design by T.C. Johnson, based on JMB's 1893/97 shotgun design which was and is an excellent combat shotgun, they called it the trench sweeper/broom. The 97 has no trigger disconnect, meaning once the trigger is pulled, one can hold the trigger down/in and pump rapidly to fire the remaining shells with absolute devastation. The second thing that comes to mind is the hammer, as mentioned, which is nice for combat because it is easier to lower the hammer than engage/disengage the model 12 safety. The last thing is probably the 97's major drawback - receiver bite. Due to the mechanism, the top of the receiver came back over of the top of the rear stock, right where a users thumb commonly resides. If your hand is not properly positioned on the gun (proper for a 1897 model), you can get bit.
I knew about the slam fire, but not about the receiver bite. Thumb alongside like with some of my shorter milsurps--prevents my thumb from hitting me in my nose.

CDFingers
It taught me to heed my fathers words. "Move you fucking thumb dipshit"

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Re: Win 12 & 97 diffs & project log

16
CDFingers wrote:Does anyone know whether the 12 and the 97 stocks are the same? Looking for 97 stocks, all's I find is walnut. I want birch, maple, or beech. If the stocks are the same, I can expand my search.

CDFingers
A quick look the two shotguns or..... at Numrich parts reveals a different part numbers for the stocks on the model 97 & model 12 - they are not compatible with each other and walnut is what came on the 97 originally.

Re: Win 12 & 97 diffs

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Ah. But of course. I will keep looking. This will be a made-gun, so I'm not worried that it should be "correct." Walnut responds in an unremarkable way to pine tar. Not so maple, birch, and beech. I may end up making them from patterns.

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: Win 12 & 97 diffs

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I was watching, well, more like background noise and listening to documentary on Amazon Prime called -Harem, politics, pleasure and power-

They mentioned something interesting . Pine Tar, was thought to be a contraceptive for men. Applying it liberally before intercourse was thought to prevent pregnancy.

Now we know why CDFingers is into Pine Tar so much.. "wink wink, nudge nudge, know what I mean know what I mean ?


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Re: Win 12 & 97 diffs

23
curtism1234 wrote:Decent US made 97's for $230 and $300?

Has the price plummeted on these the past few years?
Actually, I traded a Turk for it. Paid $75 back in the day. I figure I'll put in three bills worth of my labor and new parts. Nothing is more expensive than something you make a great trade for. :laugh:

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: Win 12 & 97 diffs

24
curtism1234 wrote:Decent US made 97's for $230 and $300?

Has the price plummeted on these the past few years?
Go to southside pawn on south Broadway in st louis. They have a couple for $325. They have a break down model asking $399. And with pawn shops, asking is usually far from accepting price.

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-Me-

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Re: Win 12 & 97 diffs

25
CDFingers wrote:This thing apparently wants 2 5/8 " shells. 'Sposedly it will handle 2 3/4 " paper or plastic shells. But I found these (will trim).

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http://www.brownells.com/reloading/bras ... 18654.aspx

And this reloading die &c.

http://ads.midwayusa.com/product/296286 ... aQodMKIPpg

So, that's cool.

CDFingers
Ive been shooting 2 3/4 for over 3 decades out of mine . works just fine with them..
Who new..

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