If you guys had been raking the floor of the woods a bit more often, none of this would have happened.
Heaven help us all.
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If you guys had been raking the floor of the woods a bit more often, none of this would have happened.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ka ... lot-photosAlmost a thousand people have had to make a Walmart parking lot their home in Chico, California, as a result of the catastrophic Camp fire in Northern California. Many fled with just the clothes on their back, and most have no home to return to in the wake of the most destructive wildfire in the state’s history. To make matters worse, some of the shelters for evacuees are experiencing an outbreak of norovirus, a highly contagious gastrointestinal virus. These photos show the limited facilities on offer for families left sitting in the still-smoky air, trying to figure out what comes next.
Never know what will tumble out of the mouth of the demented one.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-m ... story.html
On Saturday, Trump continued to talk about forest management, particularly forest floors. “We’ve got to take care of the floors, you know, the floors of the forest. It’s very important,” the president said. He said Finland focuses “on raking and cleaning and doing things, and they don’t have any problem, and when it is … I know everyone is looking at that.”
A heat wave this summer caused huge forest fires across Europe, including Finland. Fires scorched forested areas in Lapland, a remote northern province near Finland’s border with Russia, forcing evacuations of summer cottages. One big difference: Rainfall since May at Jarbo Gap in Butte County, near where the Camp fire started, was at 0.7 inches. The May-November rainfall in Rovaniemi, Lapland’s capital: 15.76 inches.
Finland and California also differ greatly in their winds, said meteorologist Geoff Fox in Irvine. California’s Santa Ana winds are dry, desiccating vegetation as they whip through canyons and passes. They don’t exist in Finland’s relatively flat country, Fox said.
Experts agree that overgrown forests in California pose a heightened wildfire threat in some parts of the Sierra Nevada. But although Paradise is near forestland, the wind-whipped Camp fire tore across areas that burned in 2008 lightning fires and were also later logged. It is not fueled by heavy timber.
Tragic and depressing to watch. That was a fast moving inferno. Hopefully between shelter lists and FEMA lists, the missing can be reconciled hopefully the sheriff's office is working on it.
http://www.latimes.com/local/california ... story.htmlFinland’s president isn’t sure where U.S. President Trump got the idea that raking is part of his country’s routine for managing its substantial forests. Trump told reporters Saturday while visiting the ruins of the Northern California town where a fire killed at least 76 people that wildfires weren’t a problem in Finland because crews “spend a lot of time on raking and cleaning and doing things” to clear forest floors.
Finnish President Sauli Niinisto said in an interview published Sunday in the Ilta-Sanomat newspaper that he spoke briefly with Trump about forest management on Nov. 11, when they were in Paris for Armistice Day events. Niinisto said their conversation focused on the California wildfires and the surveillance system Finland uses to monitor forests for fires. He remembered telling Trump, “We take care of our forests,” but couldn’t recall raking coming up.
The U.S. leader’s comment generated amusement on social media in Finland, which manages its vast forests with scientific seriousness. Forests cover more than 70% of Finland’s 338,000 square kilometers. The Nordic country with a population of 5.5 million is home to some of the world’s biggest paper and pulp companies.
The Scandanavians are smarter than Americans, the greed mentality hasn't permeated the culture like in the US. Post 2018 CA fire season, there will be a debate but I think the developers and building trades will win out over environmental planning. I'm not confident in Newsom and many of the Democrats in the supermajority to get a lot passed, Republicans wouldn't even have a debate.eelj wrote: Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:39 am Back in 86 when I was in Norway traveling by auto I saw many areas that had been just recently logged. The areas cut had had all of the timber removed and what was left was all of the slash all stacked up neatly waiting to be picked up. My relatives told me that they have also found a use for the slash and it is not left on the ground to fuel wild fires.
Much of northeastern and central eastern parts of Mn was scourged by two great fires a century ago and they were caused by the logging industry leaving its slash on the ground.
I'm guessing in Finland they do the same as in Norway it's just not done with rakes in either country.
“It’s not a land management and wildland fire management problem. It’s an urban planning problem,” he said. “It’s an issue of where and how we build, and how do you get people out in time.”
Moritz suggested that Gov.-elect Gavin Newsom establish a permanent state commission to review development in hazardous fire zones, much as the California Coastal Commission reviews projects along the state’s coastline.
“The challenge for the incoming governor is to actually do something real about this in a holistic, long-term fashion. We need something new,” Moritz argued.
https://www.latimes.com/local/californi ... story.htmlCain, noting the jealousy with which local officials guard their land-use planning authority, predicted fierce resistance to any move to strengthen state oversight of development in fire-danger zones.
“It’s not something we’re going to be able to dictate on the state level,” he said. Rather, he added, “we have to induce people” to stop building — and rebuilding — in areas that are destined to burn again and again.
Government fire insurance could be withheld from those whose homes go up in smoke more than once, Cain suggested. Another approach would be to buy out homeowners in oft-scorched areas, just as some regions in the country have purchased properties that repeatedly flood. Serial government bailouts of homeowners who make risky choices is “not sustainable economically,” Cain said. The Camp fire and the wine country firestorm were wind whipped, raining embers and flames on homes before many had a chance to evacuate. Victims died in their houses or perished while fleeing on foot or in vehicles.
In such extreme situations, Moritz said, lives would be saved if people could quickly take refuge in established community fire shelters in their neighborhoods. “The idea is, if you can’t get out in time, you shouldn’t be running down the street with your children,” he said. “You shouldn’t be trying to evacuate in a traffic jam as it burns over. We have to start thinking a little bit outside of the box. Because we’re clearly not prepared."
We have a tool to control new development in fire-prone areas--the California Environmental Quality Act (CEQA). CEQA, among other environmental considerations, specifically requires review of wildland/urban/fire risk as well as emergency response. CEQA is required for subdivisions of more than 4 lots. Sadly, it has historically not been used very effectively for this sort of thing and is more often used my as a cudgel by CAVE (citizens against virtually everything) People to stop projects they don't like (affordable housing, high density housing).highdesert wrote: Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:58 am
The Scandanavians are smarter than Americans, the greed mentality hasn't permeated the culture like in the US. Post 2018 CA fire season, there will be a debate but I think the developers and building trades will win out over environmental planning. I'm not confident in Newsom and many of the Democrats in the supermajority to get a lot passed, Republicans wouldn't even have a debate.
Norway has building trades the same as here. The big difference is that Norway is a tiny country that subsidizes many industries because of the wealth from North sea oil.The Scandanavians are smarter than Americans, the greed mentality hasn't permeated the culture like in the US. Post 2018 CA fire season, there will be a debate but I think the developers and building trades will win out over environmental planning. I'm not confident in Newsom and many of the Democrats in the supermajority to get a lot passed, Republicans wouldn't even have a debate
You're right, the rains help control the fire and clear the air, but bring a whole new set of problems.Bisbee wrote: Mon Nov 19, 2018 2:10 pm I remember driving ‘cross two states and Texas as a volunteer after Katrina. Tent city set up in Nola, KBB making a killing off FEMA by housing and feeding us (and contractors) each day after working in the field. Not a criticism exactly aside from imagining Chico has turned into a kind of post-Katrina relief effort. Possibly worse at this moment for fear of ironic rain that is coming (they desperately need rain to help stop the burning but will wreak havoc on the displaced population).
https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la- ... story.htmlThe National Weather Service issued a flash flood watch through Friday morning where the Camp fire raged through Butte County. While the rainfall will help with the firefight — the blaze is 70% contained and has burned 151,272 acres — neighborhoods that were destroyed, and those downstream of them, could see mudslides and debris flows. The Camp fire burn zone could see up to 6 inches of rain through Saturday, which isn’t unusual for that region, said Johnnie Powell, a meteorologist with the National Weather Service in Sacramento. In April, Paradise saw nearly 6 inches of rain in one day in what was its last significant storm. “Best-case scenario, it’ll rain on it and nothing will move. Worst-case scenario, the mud will start moving,” Powell said. “We just have to wait and see what happens. All we know for sure is, it’s going to rain really hard.”
The soil in recently burned areas cannot absorb rainwater. Enough rain can lead to fast-moving flows of mud, debris and even trees and boulders that can be deadly for those in their path. The devastation often comes without warning. In Southern California, the Woolsey fire burn area is expected to see between half an inch to an inch of rain late Wednesday into early Thursday. Showers could linger into Thursday morning, said David Sweet, a meteorologist with the National Weather Service in Oxnard.
Authorities have pointed to the deadly debris flow that hit Montecito after the Thomas fire last year in asking residents to be vigilant.
“I don’t want you to think we can stop floods if it rains. Floods will occur,” Chief Thom Porter of the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection said at a town hall meeting. “Much like Montecito, the orders will be ‘evacuate,’ and you need to evacuate if you get that.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... 94aab58028More than 10 days later, those temporary accommodations are being overwhelmed by overcrowding and disease. As heavy rain moves into the area for the first time since the fire began, those living in tents face the threat of flooding, too.
More than 120 people have been taken to hospitals in recent days with stomach ailments that resemble the symptoms of norovirus, a highly contagious infection. The symptoms include severe vomiting and diarrhea and, like many such infections, fall hardest on children.
Just an ordinary day in the Finnish forest ~ Ihan normipäivä suomalaisessa metsässä
#Trump #forest #firesafety #raking #forestry #Finland #Finnish #CaliforniaFire #RakingAmericaGreatAgain #rakingtheforest #Suomi #haravointi #metsäpalot #rakingleaves
Great pic Andy!Just an ordinary day in the Finnish forest...
Yes, over time we'll hear more experiences. In areas that already burned, search and rescue teams have been out looking for human remains and torrential rains could wipe out scent that cadaver dogs follow and make it harder for S&D teams.Bisbee wrote: Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:10 am Amazing stories coming out of this. The best of us comes out under horrifying circumstances.
https://www.sacbee.com/news/state/calif ... 34815.htmlThey are retired SMUD [Sacramento Municipal Utilities District] engineers and school principals. One is a full-time mom, another a professional farrier.
They are the volunteer members of El Dorado County’s search and rescue team, usually dispatched to find lost hikers and hunters in the hills and forests that stretch between Placerville and Lake Tahoe. Last week, in the aftermath of the Camp Fire, they were in Butte County on a singular mission. “We were brought in to bring closure to families,” said David McCracken, who has been doing this for 26 years. The El Dorado County team was part of what may be the largest search effort in California history. More than 500 people — nearly all of them volunteers with little or no professional forensics experience — are picking through the ashes of thousands of homes in Paradise and surrounding towns, looking for clues to provide answers to families whose loved ones are missing, aware their findings will likely be painful. “We’re heading out there knowing the results will be tragic,” said the team’s supervisor, Sgt. Moke Auwae with the El Dorado Sheriff’s Department. “We’re doing what we always do, which is looking for victims. We’re very good at that.”
As of Monday, the remains of 79 victims of the Camp Fire have been recovered. Nearly 1,000 people are on a list of missing, though many of those may ultimately be found alive. The El Dorado volunteers pay for all their equipment — some spending $8,000 a year on helmets, masks, GPS devices and radios — and won’t receive a penny of compensation for this hazardous assignment. They slept in a high school gym. Though they now have returned home, many spent days in Paradise away from families, with limited communication. The team operates as a nonprofit, relying on an annual crab feed to help pay for gear and travel — the next fundraiser is Jan. 26 at the fairgrounds in Placerville. “This is the height of character,” Auwae said.
There is strategy to the search. Crews are focusing on homes where relatives have reported missing loved ones. The process could take weeks or longer. Entire neighborhoods of Magalia and Paradise have yet to be inspected, and rain is expected in coming days, bringing new urgency to the job. The team was dispatched Thursday morning to a home in Magalia belonging to a woman whose family had provided DNA to authorities, fearing she had perished in the Camp Fire. Dressed in white protective suits and wearing filtration masks, they carefully sifted through the home’s remnants, crouching down in the wreckage for a closer look at bits of recognizable items that survived the flames and trying to avoid stepping on nails. Within minutes, a crew member discovered what appeared to be a human skull and a single vertebra near an incinerated box spring at the front of the home.
Then, another discovery. “We’ve got two beds and possibly three bodies,” a team member said. It wasn’t immediately clear whether the other remains were human. Recovering remains from the Camp Fire’s destructive path is unprecedented work for many of the volunteers. McCracken is one of the few members of his team who has been involved in other large-scale search and rescue missions. He said he was part of a FEMA team that was deployed to Hurricanes Katrina and Ivan.“This will be equal to a disaster like Katrina,” he said. “Everything is gone. Little is left standing.”
Grant Nelson, 62, retired as an engineer from SMUD. He grew up exploring the wilderness of the Sierra Nevada and lives in Placerville. His life in the outdoors provided “a strong skill set” for this duty, he said. But tragedies like the Camp Fire carry an emotional weight. Where a search for a lost hiker has the potential for a joyous outcome, sifting through the ash of Paradise can bring little more than knowledge. Nelson said he received counseling after finding a dead hunter in Grizzly Flat in 2012, but was able to quickly rebound. He expects to seek counseling again after the Camp Fire, but also expects to have the same reaction this time. “I survived,” he said of his past encounter with death.
Dave Freeman, 74, retired as the superintendent of the Placerville Union School District. He was a principal at schools in Granite Bay and has volunteered with the search and rescue team for 10 years. Freeman’s parents once lived in Paradise and he has warm memories of visiting the area. “When I looked at the pictures (of the Camp Fire), it was just so shocking,” he said. Freeman bit into an apple during a brief break Thursday. His colleagues sat on the ground nearby, eating sandwiches and waiting for their next assignment. It was likely to bring the same grim results as the home in Magalia. Freeman was determined, but the enormity of the task was wearing on him. “You can’t do anything,” Freeman said. “It leaves you empty inside.”
Good article. Years of heat and drought and trees become weak and bark beetles finally kill them, dead trees are kindling for fires. The San Bernardino National Forest was hit big as was the Cleveland National Forest.CDFingers wrote: Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:44 am It's raining. 5 inches over three days forecast.
Maybe a repeat, but of interest.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/wh ... m=referral
CDFingers
It's not just the CA politicians but 45.8% of CA lands are federal, national parks, national forests, national monuments, BLM etc.“The devastation we’ve seen doesn’t have to be the ‘new normal,’ because it is largely a product of our own making,” said Christopher Dicus, a wildland fire researcher at California Polytechnic State University and president of the Association for Fire Ecology. “We have the potential to stop this cycle of repetitive loss, but only if we have the political will to do so.”
https://www.fresnobee.com/latest-news/a ... 46210.htmlThe death toll from the Camp Fire reached 83, officials said Wednesday, as emergency agencies kept a close eye on the rains and the possibility of debris flows in the burn zone.
Butte County Sheriff Kory Honea, in a briefing at the Cal Fire command post in Chico, said two more people were found Wednesday — one each in Paradise and Magalia. He said 563 people remain unaccounted for, a drop of 307 in just a day’s time. “I’m encouraged by the fact that we’re continuing to account for and locate people,” the sheriff said.
Cal Fire and other agencies warned that the rains, which are expected to last through Friday or possibly Saturday, could create potentially dangerous flows of ash, mud, trees, rocks and other post-fire debris. Six different agencies issued flash flood alerts for the mountainous area surrounding the Camp Fire burn zone. The U.S. Geological Survey said areas north of Paradise, including Concow and Pugla, were most at risk.
“The rain is of concern to us,” Honea said. However, he said he doesn’t think any human remains will be washed away by the rains.
The National Weather Service said the Chico-Paradise region got about 1 inch of rain as of Wednesday night. The greatest risk of debris flow was likely to occur Thursday night through Friday, the service said.
Although it rained in parts of Northern California in early October, this week’s precipitation represents the first significant rainfall of the season.
Cal Fire’s Watershed Emergency Response Team dispatched a dozen staffers to the hillsides around Pulga and Concow in recent days to identify the high-risk areas, digging into the soil and pouring water on the ground to see how porous the earth is. Another team was conducting similar work in the Southern California coastal mountain areas affected by the Woolsey fire.
Officials were mindful of the January disaster in Montecito, when 21 people died in mudslides caused by a major rainstorm on portions of Santa Barbara that had been hit by the Thomas Fire weeks earlier. The mudslide left a stretch of Highway 101 closed for a week.
Honea said more than 800 search and rescue personnel were scheduled to be on the job Thanksgiving day. But if the rain imperils the safety of searchers, “we will pull personnel out of those areas and suspend the search,” the sheriff said.
Honea also released the names of six more victims: Teresa Ammans, 82, of Paradise; Richard Brown, 74, of Concow; Marie Wehe, 78, of Concow; Kimber Wehr, 53, of Paradise; Joseph Rabetoy, 39, of Paradise; and Joan Tracy, 80, of Paradise.
Paradise Police Chief Eric Reinbold said he hopes residents can start visiting their properties in the foreseeable future. “We are actively working on a plan for re-entry,” he said. “We hope to begin that re-entry in the coming days.” Residents will probably be allowed to be onsite for 6 to 8 hours.
A total of 13,503 homes have been destroyed, Cal Fire said Wednesday.
Eric Lameroux, of the state Office of Emergency Services, announced that the state Department of Toxic Substance Control and U.S. Environmental Protection Agency would begin removing propane tanks and “obvious chemicals” from individuals’ properties next week. But he said it would take several months to do a full cleanup of the burn zone, including the removal of toxic ash.
He added that getting people registered with the Federal Emergency Management Agency for financial assistance remains a top priority, and getting people “out of shelters and into situations that are safer.”
Mary Sakuma, the head of the county education department, said plans are under way to get the several thousand displaced school children of Paradise back in class by Dec. 3. “We are close to knowing how and where all students will be attending school,” she said. “Trust that we are on it.” A shuttered elementary school, located between Oroville and Paradise, is being reopened.
I do hope you are right, that would a better ending to the worst fire in CA history. It's already 85% contained. Wishing you and your family a peaceful Thanksgiving in spite of the chaos still around you. Planning a get away trip to get out of the smoke area?CDFingers wrote: Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:21 am The rain is welcome, and it smells like the day after the fire department put out the burning house across the street.
I think the rain over the next few days will not cause floods but will soak in after washing down the ash into the black creeks. I'm an optimist.
CDFingers
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