Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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I was watching an old Gunsmoke in black and white a while back. Seems there were some bad guys they needed a posse for. So the Marshall was handing out Winchesters in the jailhouse off the rack. Guys lined up. One steps up. Marshall grabs a gun off the rack, opens the action, looks, closes it, and hands it to the guy. Guy takes it, opens the action, looks, closes the action, walks over to the table and grabs a box of shells. Next guy steps up.

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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lurker wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 9:08 am
sikacz wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:48 am
lurker wrote: Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:00 pm is mr baldwin a shooter, i.e. does he shoot outside a movie prop context?
Don’t know what he knew about guns, but he was an anti-gun activist.
so he probably didn't know squat about proper gun handling, accepted the "expert"s word.
Probably.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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That Reddit link shows we're all thinking the same things and a lot of people who work on film and TV sets. The Santa Fe County DA might not charge anyone, but there will be civil lawsuits against the production company, the producers of which Baldwin is one, the AD and most importantly the armorer. And I expect insurance companies will look at this closely and tighten up on requirements for firearms use on sets including qualifications of an armorer.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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highdesert wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:11 am That Reddit link shows we're all thinking the same things and a lot of people who work on film and TV sets. The Santa Fe County DA might not charge anyone, but there will be civil lawsuits against the production company, the producers of which Baldwin is one, the AD and most importantly the armorer. And I expect insurance companies will look at this closely and tighten up on requirements for firearms use on sets including qualifications of an armorer.
I couldn’t wade through that link. A more concise description of what’s relevant would have been nice by CDF. I didn’t read enough to find conspiracy theory.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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sikacz wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:25 am
highdesert wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 10:11 am That Reddit link shows we're all thinking the same things and a lot of people who work on film and TV sets. The Santa Fe County DA might not charge anyone, but there will be civil lawsuits against the production company, the producers of which Baldwin is one, the AD and most importantly the armorer. And I expect insurance companies will look at this closely and tighten up on requirements for firearms use on sets including qualifications of an armorer.
I couldn’t wade through that link. A more concise description of what’s relevant would have been nice by CDF. I didn’t read enough to find conspiracy theory.

No conspiracy theories that I saw, but I didn't follow the links down the rabbit holes. Mostly people who have worked on TV and film sets pointing out all the things wrong on the "Rust" set.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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If accurate, the top post in CDF's reddit link has a quote confirming my suspicion that movie people (or reporters) think an accidental/negligent discharge is a "misfire." I don't consider that purely semantic, since if they don't even know how to describe the event unambiguously, how can they know how to prevent it?
A colleague was so alarmed by the prop gun misfires that he sent a text message to the unit production manager. “We’ve now had 3 accidental discharges. This is super unsafe,” according to a copy of the message reviewed by The Times.
IMR4227: Zero to 900 in 0.001 seconds

I'm only killing paper and my self-esteem.

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Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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From what I can tell from the news today, the Assistant Director handed him the gun and has a history of carelessness and neglect with both firearms and other issues on set. Besides the obvious tragedy of death and injury, the worst part about all of this is watching the media suck so friggin hard at explaining anything having to do with a gun. How hard would it be to do the 3 minutes of Googling it takes to use proper terminology? Even the "armorer" folks they interview sound like idiots.
Crow
Minute Of Average

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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Crow wrote: Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:27 am From what I can tell from the news today, the Assistant Director handed him the gun and has a history of carelessness and neglect with both firearms and other issues on set. Besides the obvious tragedy of death and injury, the worst part about all of this is watching the media suck so friggin hard at explaining anything having to do with a gun. How hard would it be to do the 3 minutes of Googling it takes to use proper terminology? Even the "armorer" folks they interview sound like idiots.
Crow
Pretty much and emphasizing “prop gun” as if that itself is supposed to mean it’s harmless.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

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Trump Jr sells 'Alec Baldwin Kills People' T-shirts after fatal movie set accident

On Monday, The Daily Beast reported that Donald Trump Jr. is now hawking shirts from his website making fun of the fatal movie set accident that killed Alec Baldwin's cinematographer Halnya Hutchins.

"The oldest Trump son, Donald Jr., is hawking $27.99 T-shirts on his official site with the mocking slogan: 'Guns don't kill people, Alec Baldwin kills people.' On his Instagram stories, the Trump son also posted a photoshopped pic of the actor wearing one of the Ts," reported Jamie Ross. "It's the latest and possibly most egregious example of Trumpworld's celebration of Thursday's fatal accident on the set of Rust. The alt-right has reveled in the shooting due to Baldwin's previous mockery of ex-President Donald Trump and his advocacy for tighter controls on firearms."

Baldwin has also been a longtime target of wrath from the Trump family due to his role portraying the former president in an unflattering satirical light on Saturday Night Live.

Trump Jr. is one of many Republicans who have gone after Baldwin. Ohio GOP Senate candidate J.D. Vance took to Twitter immediately after the fatal accident, imploring the platform to "let Trump back on" because "we need Alec Baldwin tweets."
https://www.rawstory.com/donald-trump-jr-2655362865/

Anything to make a buck. Bet the tee shirts are made in China with the design copyrighted by Ivanka.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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It's worth noting here that the movie industry gets exemptions from high capacity magazine laws in California. It is also possible to be licenced for NFA items for movies where it is otherwise nearly impossible. Those are some huge carve outs, so California must think actors and armours are very safe and responsible. I'm not sure why either would be necessary for the movie industry but not for us normies. I wonder if that will change based on this?

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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More details are coming out.
Actor Alec Baldwin was practicing removing a revolver from its holster and aiming toward the camera during rehearsal for the movie “Rust” when director Joel Souza heard “what sounded like a whip and then a loud pop,” according to a search warrant obtained by the Los Angeles Times on Sunday night that also provided grim new details about the final minutes of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins’ life.

In the newly released document, Souza said the weapon had been described to him as a “cold gun,” meaning it did not have any live rounds. But the gun discharged, striking Hutchins in her chest and Souza in his right shoulder, according to a Santa Fe County, N.M., sheriff’s detective’s affidavit used to obtain a search warrant. Hutchins was pronounced dead at an Albuquerque hospital.

Souza’s statement to the detective offered a new window into the on-set shooting Thursday that has left Hollywood reeling and calling for safer working conditions on sets.

The shooting took place after six members of the film’s crew walked off the set after complaining to the production company about payment and housing, camera operator Reid Russell told Det. Joel Cano. Russell’s and Souza’s statements to the detective offered the most detailed chronology yet of how the tragedy unfolded.

The day started late because the production hired another camera crew and was working with only one camera, Souza told the detective.

Souza said three people were handling the gun for the scene: armorer Hannah Gutierrez Reed, then assistant director Dave Halls, who handed the gun to Baldwin, the affidavit said.

Halls had taken one of three prop guns set up by Gutierrez Reed on a cart left outside the structure because of COVID-19 restrictions, the affidavit said. Halls did not know live rounds were in the gun when he handed it to Baldwin, and Halls yelled “cold gun,” according to the affidavit.

Souza said cast and crew were preparing the scene before lunch but then had a meal away from the rehearsal area around 12:30 p.m., according to the affidavit. When they returned, Souza said, he wasn’t sure if the gun was checked again, the affidavit said.

“Joel said as far as he knows, no one gets checked for live ammunition on their person prior and after the scenes are being filmed,” the affidavit said. “The only thing checked are the firearms to avoid live ammunition being in them. Joel stated there should never be live rounds whatsoever, near or around the scene.”

When they came back from lunch, a creeping shadow prompted the camera to be moved to a different angle, Russell said in the affidavit. As Baldwin was explaining how he was going to draw his gun and where his arm would be when he pulled the gun from the holster, it discharged, Russell said.

Souza said he was looking over Hutchins’ shoulder when the gun discharged. Hutchins grabbed her midsection, stumbled backward and “was assisted to the ground,” Souza told the detective.

The search warrant said Russell recalled hearing a loud bang, seeing a bloody Souza and hearing Hutchins say she couldn’t feel her legs.

The shooting came after crew members raised concerns about safety conditions on set. Two “Rust” crew members told the L.A. Times that, less than a week earlier, a stunt double had fired two accidental prop gun discharges after being told the gun was “cold.”
https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-a ... ch-warrant

As further details emerge about a lack of safety protocols that led to the tragic accidental firing of a prop gun on the New Mexico set of “Rust,” a portion of the script obtained by The Times depicts the scene in question.

Co-written by star Alec Baldwin and director Joel Souza, the script’s third act includes a scene featuring Lucas (Brady Noon) and Harland Rust (Baldwin) taking cover in a church after Rust has been gravely injured. Lucas leaves in search of help, but their enemies Wood (Jensen Ackles), Drum (Swen Temmel) and Miller (Travis Hammer) are hot on his tail.

Fenton Lang (Travis Fimmel) enters the church, shooting one person with a shot that knocks him off his feet. The second shot destroys the livery door. Lucas takes off running but meanwhile, inside the church, a shootout ensues that tears the building apart.

Wood and his men begin firing guns at Rust, shredding the church pew in front of him.

Miller scrambles, firing wildly. Wood and Drum fire their weapons as Rust hits the floor and rolls under pews. Out the other side, the men are staggering, their guns barking as they fire at each other. In the midst of gunfire, Rust forces Wood and Drum to take cover. Rust, moving backward in the middle of unrelenting fire, makes it out a door.

Late Sunday, the Santa Fe County Sheriff’s Office released court documents that described how the tragedy unfolded Thursday afternoon at the Bonanza Creek Ranch movie set. The directors and crew had just finished their lunch break. The film’s director, Joel Souza, told a sheriff’s detective that he wasn’t sure if anyone checked the guns for safety after the lunch break, according to the court documents.
https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-a ... -described

The chief electrician [gaffer] on the set of “Rust” is publicly blaming the film’s armorer and producers for the “negligence” that led to cinematographer Halyna Hutchins’ death.

On Sunday, Serge Svetnoy — who was the gaffer on the New Mexico western — posted a long message on his Facebook page detailing Thursday’s fatal shooting. In the post, Svetnoy said he was “standing shoulder-to-shoulder” with Hutchins when she was struck by a projectile accidentally fired from a prop gun used by Alec Baldwin.

“I was holding her in my arms while she was dying,” the gaffer wrote. “Her blood was on my hands.”

Svetnoy has not responded to numerous inquiries from The Times since Friday. But in his post, he noted that he had worked with Hutchins on “almost all of her films,” including the Joe Manganiello action film “Archenemy” and the recently completed horror thriller “The Mad Hatter.” “Sometimes we’ve shared food and water,” Svetnoy said of the director of photography. “We’ve been burning under the sun, freezing in the snow or on the shoots. We took care of each other.”

Though he did not name 24-year-old “Rust” armorer Hannah Gutierrez Reed by name, Svetnoy made it clear that he felt she held much of the responsibility for his friend’s death.

“I’m sure that we had the professionals in every department, but one — the department that was responsible for the weapons,” Svetnoy said. “There is no way a twenty-four-year-old woman can be a professional with armory; there is no way that her more-or-less the same-aged friend from school, neighborhood, Instagram, or God knows where else, can be a professional in this field.”

“Rust” was just the second feature film Gutierrez had worked on as lead armorer, meaning she was in charge of overseeing gun safety and usage on set. She prepared the three prop guns used by Baldwin in a church shootout scene, according to the Santa Fe County Sheriff’s Office search warrant affidavit obtained by the Associated Press. One of those weapons was handed to Baldwin by assistant director Dave Halls, the affidavit said.

In his public message, Svetnoy said that “the negligence from the person who was supposed to check the weapon on the site did not do this; the person who had to announce that the loaded gun was on the site did not do this; the person who should have checked this weapon before bringing it to the set did not do it.”

The gaffer used his post to call upon producers to avoid cutting corners to maintain a low budget.

“To save a dime sometimes, you hire people who are not fully qualified for the complicated and dangerous job, and you risk the lives of the other people who are close and your lives as well,” Svetnoy said. “I understand that you always fight for the budget, but you cannot allow this to happen. ... It is true that the professionals can cost a little more and sometimes can be a little bit more demanding, but it is worth it. No saved penny is worth the LIFE of the person!”

He concluded: “And finally, dear Producers, please remember that it’s not you who are giving the opportunities to the people you hire make their money; it’s the people you hire who help You make Your money. Remember this!”

Cinematographer Halyna Hutchins was on the cusp of reaching a new level of recognition in a male-dominated field.
https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-a ... a-hutchins
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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FrontSight wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:36 am Movie gun companies are federally licensed class 3 dealers, and as such can have NFA or items that are banned in CA. That's not unique to the movie companies, but any class 3 dealer in California...so nothing special for the movie industry.
It is unique and special. Name one legitimate reason that movie companies need real NFA equipment. My point is, they are citizens with an exception to the law purely for entertainment and money.

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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featureless wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:44 am
FrontSight wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:36 am Movie gun companies are federally licensed class 3 dealers, and as such can have NFA or items that are banned in CA. That's not unique to the movie companies, but any class 3 dealer in California...so nothing special for the movie industry.
It is unique and special. Name one legitimate reason that movie companies need real NFA equipment. My point is, they are citizens with an exception to the law purely for entertainment and money.
You seem to be confused about their legal classification. They are first and foremost LICENSED CLASS 3 DEALERS. So their legal classification is what allows them to have the weapons and magazines, not that they service the movie industry. They can do all the things that any other class 3 dealer can do. This is a Federal thing, not a California thing.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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FrontSight wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:56 am
featureless wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:44 am
FrontSight wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:36 am Movie gun companies are federally licensed class 3 dealers, and as such can have NFA or items that are banned in CA. That's not unique to the movie companies, but any class 3 dealer in California...so nothing special for the movie industry.
It is unique and special. Name one legitimate reason that movie companies need real NFA equipment. My point is, they are citizens with an exception to the law purely for entertainment and money.
You seem to be confused about their legal classification. They are first and foremost LICENSED CLASS 3 DEALERS. So their legal classification is what allows them to have the weapons and magazines, not that they service the movie industry. They can do all the things that any other class 3 dealer can do. This is a Federal thing, not a California thing.
Except that California also requires a "dangerous weapon permit" for such dealers, one of the justifications being "(3) Use and/or manufacture of dangerous weapons as props in commercial motion picture, television production, or other commercial entertainment events." So yes, California has carve outs specifically for the movie industry.

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Yes, CA politicians have whored for Hollywood like they've done for Silicone Valley and tech companies. Not just the Hollywood studios but also the unions. Geography looks much the same around the world, remember the famous spaghetti westerns filmed in Italy, not in the US West. LA's pull is that there are highly trained people in the LA area to man a TV or film set, it's still home to the big 5 studios with their own lots: Paramount Studios; Columbia Pictures/SONY Pictures Studio; 20th Century; Universal Studios and Warner Brothers Studios plus smaller ones and television ones.
http://www.laalmanac.com/media/me12.php

Haven't seen any reporters asking where the firearms came from, were they rented if so from where or did the armorer bring them? Were there pyrotechnics on set, if so who coordinated? Some companies that rent firearms to production companies.
https://moviegunguy.com/WP/
https://issprops.com/weapons/

Hollywood was in a state of shock on Friday, one day after Alec Baldwin fired a gun being used as a prop on a New Mexico film set, killing a cinematographer and wounding the director. Real firearms are routinely used while cameras are rolling, and injuries of any kind are rare. The reason is that safety protocols for firearms on sets are well established and straight forward.

Weapons must be tightly managed by an armorer, sometimes credited on films as a “weapons master,” who holds various government-issued permits. Some states, for instance, require an entertainment firearms license in addition to standard gun licenses. Cast members should be trained in gun safety in advance. Guns should never be pointed directly at anyone, especially in rehearsals but even during actual filming, since camera trickery can be used to compensate for the angle. If necessary, plexiglass is used to protect the camera operator and surrounding crew members.

And no live ammunition, ever.

“Protocol had to have been broken,” said Daniel Leonard, an associate dean of Chapman University’s film school who specializes in set procedures. “We will have to see what the details are, but the industry has a very specific set of guidelines to follow to prevent something like this from happening.”

Weapons on sets vary. Some are rubber props (used for shots when actors are far in the distance) and others are airsoft guns that fire nonlethal pellets. Often, however, productions use real guns.

Studios prefer to digitally create the actual firing in postproduction whenever possible. Sometimes it is not. Even in a filmmaking age where visual-effects artists use computers to convincingly create disintegrating cities, it can be difficult to replicate the weight and recoil of a real gun, studio executives say. Some actors have a hard time faking it.

Depending on the complexity of the scene, effects wizardry is also expensive, Mr. Leonard noted, and independently financed movies like “Rust,” the film that Mr. Baldwin was making in New Mexico, operate on shoestring budgets.

When the guns need to be fired, they are loaded with blanks, which are cartridge cases with no bullets. People tend to think that blanks are like toy cap guns for children — a little pop and some smoke. That is not the case. Blanks can still be dangerous because they involve gunpowder and paper wadding or wax, which provide a flame and spark, which look good on camera. (When people are injured by firearms on sets, it usually involves a burn, safety coordinators said.)

“Blanks help contribute to the authenticity of a scene in ways that cannot be achieved in any other manner,” David Brown, a Canadian movie firearms safety coordinator, wrote in American Cinematographer magazine in 2019. “If the cinematographer is there to paint a story with light and framing, firearms experts are there to enhance a story with drama and excitement.”

A production safety coordinator, working with the armorer, institutes rules for keeping a safe distance from the muzzle of a gun loaded with a blank. At least 20 feet is a rule of thumb, according to Larry Zanoff, an armorer for films like “Django Unchained.” Mr. Brown wrote that “safe distances vary widely depending on the load and the type of firearm, which is why we test everything in advance.”

“Take the distance that people need to be away from a gunshot, and then triple it,” Mr. Brown wrote. He declined a telephone interview on Friday but added in an email: “Firearms are no more dangerous than any other prop on set when handled responsibly. All the safety procedures in the industry make these situations virtually impossible when firearms are handled by professionals who give them their undivided attention.”

If a movie involves gunfire, safety planning usually begins long before anyone gathers on a set, according to studio executives who oversee physical production. First, the armorer is brought on board to analyze the script and, working with the director and prop master, decide what weapons are needed. Studios tend to work with the same armorers over and over again; one such expert, John Fox, has credits in 190 films and 650 episodes of television over 25 years.

Armorers own the weapons themselves or rent them; Mike Tristano & Company in Los Angeles has a vast prop gun inventory that includes AK-47s in blank-firing, blank-adapted and nonfiring versions. Armorers (or sometimes licensed prop masters) are responsible for storing them on set. Guns are not supposed to leave their hands until cameras are rolling; actors hand them back as soon as “cut” or “wrap” is called and the cameras stop.

“There’s a big difference between being an expert with firearms and handling them on a set,” said Jeremy Goldstein, a prop master and licensed armorer in Los Angeles whose credits include films for Netflix, Amazon and Universal. “On a set, you’re around people who have never held guns and who don’t understand the gravity of what can happen.” (Mr. Goldstein, like Mr. Zanoff and Mr. Brown, has no connection with “Rust.”)

Studios typically require any cast members who will be performing with firearms to undergo training on a shooting range in advance. There, they are taught safety and given general information about how guns work. Independent productions, for reasons of cost and time, may handle safety demonstrations on set. Various unions operate safety hotlines where anyone on set can anonymously report concerns.

It is not clear precisely what kind of gun was being used in “Rust,” what it was loaded with or what exactly was happening on the set when it was fired. It was also not known what kind of training the cast members had. “Regarding the projectile, a focus of the investigation is what type it was and how did it get there,” said Juan Ríos, a spokesman for the Santa Fe County Sheriff’s Office.

A New York Times reporter got a sense of what usually happens on a set right before a scene involving simulated gunfire. It happened in October 2015 on the Baton Rouge, La., set of the remake of “Roots.” Before the cameras rolled, a crew leader stood in the middle of the wooded location, with dozens of performers and crew watching, and gave a safety speech in an urgent, serious tone. The scene they were about to film involved cannons and gunfire from period weapons.

“All right everybody,” the crew leader said. “We have to discharge the gun. So we’re not playing with toys, guys. If something goes wrong, I’m going to yell cut, and we’re all going to back off calmly.

“The cannons are all faced out. We’ve all been through this training, we’ve rehearsed it over and over, we all get it. But pay attention, this is not a game. I keep saying that, guys. These guns are for real.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/22/busi ... oting.html
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun on set killing the cinematographer and injuring the director.

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lurker wrote: Mon Oct 25, 2021 11:58 am i can imagine no reason for there to be live ammo on a movie set, much less loaded into a firearm. ok, maybe on a security guard.
Its actually very common for a number of reasons, most have to do with automatic weapons though. No idea why live ammo was needed on THAT particular set though...I'll leave that to the investigation. Considering that you're not allowed to make a movie in the US without gun play, I'd say Hollywood's safety record is overall pretty darned good...present issue excepted.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

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