9 dead in Charleston, South Carolina church shooting

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http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/18/us/ch ... .html?_r=0
CHARLESTON, S.C. — A white gunman opened fire Wednesday night at a historic black church in downtown Charleston, S.C., killing nine people before fleeing and setting off an overnight manhunt, the police said.

At a news conference with Charleston’s mayor early Thursday, the police chief, Greg Mullen, called the shooting a hate crime.

“It is unfathomable that somebody in today’s society would walk into a church while they are having a prayer meeting and take their lives,” he said.
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Re: 9 dead in Charleston, South Carolina church shooting

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The bodies weren't even cold before the usual carrion feeders scuttled out of the woodwork to lay this at the feet of the NRA and all us "gun nuts". I pointed out elsewhere that white supremacist dirtbags have had no problem with using other methods to murder innocent people and it took less than an hour before someone was openly hoping for me to die. But we're the hateful ones.
My official title is Doctor Mister Hunter Of Skullyness. Don't ask me, ask Fukshot.

The moral certainty of the crusader is as much a comfort to them as it is a burden to those in the path of their crusade.

Re: 9 dead in Charleston, South Carolina church shooting

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At a news conference with Charleston’s mayor early Thursday, the police chief, Greg Mullen, called the shooting a hate crime.
“It is unfathomable that somebody in today’s society would walk into a church while they are having a prayer meeting and take their lives,” he said.
How is it unfathomable? The GOP and its propaganda wing FOX News tell white American men 24/7 that the evil black people are mooching off of them, rioting whenever they get the chance, and want to murder them in their beds.
"... the rich rob the poor under the cover of law. We plunder the rich under the cover of our own courage." - Captain " Black Sam" Bellamy ( executed for piracy, 1717).

Re: 9 dead in Charleston, South Carolina church shooting

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Stiff wrote:I know that the standard gun nut response is "they should have been armed", but it still makes my stomach turn as it sounds too close to blaming the victims.
Reports say he relaoded five or six times. If that is true, the "gun nuts" may have a point, The victims had nothing to do with their own murders but that doesn't alter the fact that a change in circunstances would have altered the outcome. The problem is a false sense of safety.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" Ben Franklin
Beto in wisconsin

Re: 9 dead in Charleston, South Carolina church shooting

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Just awful. I can't imagine what the families and friends of victims are going through.

Putting on my "gun nut/self-defense enthusiast" hat, it's perfectly reasonable to observe that in a "gun nut" city, the murderous dirtbag chose a "gun free zone", like most other spree killers before him. Whether this specific attack could have been mitigated or prevented by guns is irrelevant. The relevant point is that people have a right to effective self-defense - with or without force multipliers like firearms - in any public setting. A church is not a sanctuary from human nature or physics.

Re: 9 dead in Charleston, South Carolina church shooting

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“I personally believe there are far too many guns out there, and access to guns, it’s far too easy. Our society has not been able to deal with that yet.”

In the coming days, Riley said he would “continue to push on” and called the killings this week “another example of why” more gun-control measures should be enacted.
Yup. The mayor's solution. Before the bodies are cold. Despicable politics. Guess which party he's from?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ ... ml?hpid=z2

Re: 9 dead in Charleston, South Carolina church shooting

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Some history on the church:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_A ... pal_Church
http://www.pbs.org/thisfarbyfaith/peopl ... vesey.html
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Re: 9 dead in Charleston, South Carolina church shooting

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comedian wrote:
At a news conference with Charleston’s mayor early Thursday, the police chief, Greg Mullen, called the shooting a hate crime.
“It is unfathomable that somebody in today’s society would walk into a church while they are having a prayer meeting and take their lives,” he said.
How is it unfathomable? The GOP and its propaganda wing FOX News tell white American men 24/7 that the evil black people are mooching off of them, rioting whenever they get the chance, and want to murder them in their beds.
I agree entirely. The incessant drumming by right-wing media outlets against minorities, especially African-Americans, is definitely part of the problem. You take someone on the edge of mental instability, fill them full of hate, and then deny any responsibility when they go out and kill people.

Re: 9 dead in Charleston, South Carolina church shooting

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eelj wrote:I just can't conceive going into a church and feeling vulnerable to an attack by some gunmen.
It's happened several times. It happened here in Colorado Springs, not long ago at that mega church that was run by the infamous Ted Haggart. Some gunman went in blazing away and fortunately, a woman security guard shot him. I think he killed a couple of people before she got him. I also defended a lawyer who decided that the Catholic Church was the cause of all his problems. He went into an evening service with a 12 ga. shotgun and did $160K in damage to the facility. He didn't shoot anybody though but those people learned how to pray while he was on his rampage. I do agree with the first half of your sentence - "I just can't conceive going into a church..." :roflmao:

Re: 9 dead in Charleston, South Carolina church shooting

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Black Eagle wrote:
eelj wrote:I just can't conceive going into a church and feeling vulnerable to an attack by some gunmen.
It's happened several times. It happened here in Colorado Springs, not long ago at that mega church that was run by the infamous Ted Haggart. Some gunman went in blazing away and fortunately, a woman security guard shot him. I think he killed a couple of people before she got him. I also defended a lawyer who decided that the Catholic Church was the cause of all his problems. He went into an evening service with a 12 ga. shotgun and did $160K in damage to the facility. He didn't shoot anybody though but those people learned how to pray while he was on his rampage. I do agree with the first half of your sentence - "I just can't conceive going into a church..." :roflmao:
Well you have to understand, I was born and raised in Mn, it's different here, or at least it was.
"Hillary Clinton is the finest, bravest, kindest, the most wonderful person I've ever known in my whole life" Raymond Shaw

Re: 9 dead in Charleston, South Carolina church shooting

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Some terrorist goes on a shooting spree and they want to disarm the public for it. :whistle:

He went to the church because there were lots of unarmed black people in it. Simple target of opportunity thing. If he'd have gone to the mall he would have had to look for them and probably wouldn't have gotten as many (plus security cameras). If he'd have gone to a neighborhood, there might have been someone armed and/or he'd have less of a chance of making it out alive.

It's like the guy in Kansas City who went to the Jewish community center looking for Jews. But he ended up shooting non-Jews in the parking lot because white people all look the same.
Brian

Re: 9 dead in Charleston, South Carolina church shooting

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eelj wrote:The dems skirt the issue and blame the gun, reps then jump in and also skirt the issue from the other side of a stupid and useless argument. Oh well life goes on.
Yes. I'm surprised (I shouldn't be) at how many are making this a gun control issue entirely. Just turning on NPR for 30 seconds resulted in having to listen to how clergy should stand up for gun control. Those that think gun confiscation and 2A reinterpretation/eradication is a fantasy should take note. Much stranger things happen each day around the world.

Re: 9 dead in Charleston, South Carolina church shooting

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Lest he miss out on the PR opportunity afforded him by the tragedy, here is Obama:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=21&v=JSIbPszm3w8
59:02GOOD AFTERNOON, EVERYBODY.
59:13 THIS MORNING I SPOKE WITH AND
59:14VICE-PRESIDENT SPOKE WITH MAYOR JOE RILEY AND OTHER LEADERS OF
59:19CHARLESTON TO EXPRESS OUR DEEP SORROW OVER THE SENSELESS
59:22MURDERS THAT TOOK PLACE LAST NIGHT. MICHELLE AND I KNOW
59:29SEVERAL MEMBERS OF EMANUEL AME CHURCH. WE KNEW THEIR PASTOR,
59:37REVEREND CLEMENTA PINCKNEY, WHO ALONG WITH EIGHT OTHERS GATHERED
59:39IN PRAYER AND FELLOWSHIP AND WAS MURDERED LAST NIGHT. AND TO SAY
59:45OUR THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS ARE WITH THEM AND THEIR FAMILIES AND
59:52THEIR COMMUNITY DOESN'T SAY ENOUGH TO CONVEY THE HEARTACHE
59:57AND THE SADNESS AND THE ANGER THAT WE FEEL.
60:05 ANY DEATH OF THIS
60:09SORT IS A TRAGEDY.
60:15 ANY SHOOTING INVOLVING MULTIPLE
60:20 VICTIMS IS A TRAGEDY. THERE'S SOMETHING
60:25PARTICULARLY HEARTBREAKING ABOUT A DEATH HAPPENING AT PLACE IN
60:30WHICH WE SEEK SOLACE, AND WE SEEK PEACE. I N A PLACE
60:42 OF WORSHIP. EMANUEL IS MORE THAN A
60:44CHURCH, IT IS A PLACE OF WORSHIP FOUNDED BY AFRICAN-AMERICANS
60:51SEEKING LIBERTY. THIS IS A CHURCH THAT WAS BURNED TO THE
60:54GROUND BECAUSE ITS WORSHIPERS WORKED TO END SLAVERY. WHEN
60:59THERE WERE LAWS BANNING ALL BLACK CHURCH GATHERINGS, THEY
61:05CONDUCTED SERVICES IN SECRET. WHEN THERE WAS A NON-VIOLENT
61:08MOVEMENT TO BRING OUR COUNTRY CLOSER IN LINE WITH OUR HIGHEST
61:11IDEALS, SOME OF OUR BRIGHTEST LEADERS SPOKE AND LED MARCHES
61:18FROM THIS CHURCH'S STEPS. THIS IS A SACRED PLACE, IN THE
61:25HISTORY OF CHARLESTON, AND IN THE HISTORY OF AMERICA. THE FBI
61:29IS NOW ON THE SCENE WITH LOCAL POLICE AND MORE OF THE BUREAU'S
61:33BEST ARE ON THE WAY TO JOIN THEM. THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
61:37ANNOUNCED PLANS FOR THE FBI TO OPEN A HATE CRIME INVESTIGATION.
61:42WE UNDERSTAND THAT THE SUSPECT IS IN CUSTODY. AND I'LL LET THE
61:46BEST OF LAW ENFORCEMENT DO ITS WORK TO MAKE SURE THAT JUSTICE
61:51IS SERVED. UNTIL THE INVESTIGATION IS COMPLETE, I'M
61:56CONSTRAINED IN TERMS OF TALKING ABOUT THE DETAILS OF THE CASE.
61:59BUT I DON'T NEED TO BE CONSTRAINED ABOUT THE EMOTIONS
62:03THAT TRAGEDIES LIKE THIS RAISE. I'VE HAD TO MAKE STATEMENTS LIKE
62:09THIS TOO MANY TIMES. COMMUNITIES LIKE THIS HAVE HAD
62:12TO ENDURE TRAGEDIES LIKE THIS TOO MANY TIMES. WE DON'T HAVE
62:17ALL THE FACTS, BUT WE DO KNOW THAT, ONCE AGAIN, INNOCENT
62:22PEOPLE WERE KILLED IN PART BECAUSE SOMEONE WHO WANTED TO
62:25INFLICT HARM HAD NO TROUBLE GETTING THEIR HANDS ON A GUN. N
62:32OW IS THE TIME FOR MOURNING AND FOR HEALING, BUT LET'S BE CLEAR.
62:38AT SOME POINT WE AS A COUNTRY WILL HAVE TO RECKON WITH THE
62:44FACT THIS TYPE OF MASS VIOLENCE DOES NOT HAPPEN IN OTHER
62:47ADVANCED COUNTRIES.
62:52 IT DOESN'T HAPPEN IN OTHER PLACES WITH THIS
62:57KIND OF FREQUENCY. A ND IT IS IN OUR POWER TO DO SOMETHING
63:04ABOUT IT. I
63:08 SAY THAT RECOGNIZING THE POLITICS IN THIS
63:13TOWN, WHO CLOSED A LOT OF THOSE AVENUES RIGHT NOW. BUT IT WOULD
63:18BE WRONG FOR US
63:23 N OT TO ACKNOWLEDGE IT. AND AT SOME
63:25POINT IT'S GOING TO BE IMPORTANT FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TO COME
63:29TO GRIPS WITH IT. AND FOR US TO BE ABLE TO SHIFT HOW WE THINK
63:35ABOUT THE ISSUE OF GUN VIOLENCE COLLECTIVELY.
63:41 THE FACT THAT THIS TOOK PLACE IN A BLACK
63:45CHURCH OBVIOUSLY ALSO RAISES QUESTIONS ABOUT A DARK PART OF
63:49OUR HISTORY. THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME THAT BLACK CHURCHES
63:54HAVE BEEN ATTACKED, AND WE KNOW THAT HATRED ACROSS RACES AND
63:58FAITHS POSE A PARTICULAR THREAT TO OUR DEMOCRACY, AND OUR
64:04IDEALS. THE GOOD NEWS IS I AM CONFIDENT THAT THE OUTPOURING OF
64:09UNITY AND STRENGTH AND FELLOWSHIP AND LOVE ACROSS
64:13CHARLESTON TODAY, FROM ALL RACES, FROM ALL FAITHS, FROM
64:22 ALL PLACES OF WORSHIP, INDICATES THE
64:25DEGREE TO WHICH THOSE OLD VESTIGES OF HATRED CAN BE
64:31OVERCOME. THAT CERTAINLY WAS DR. KING'S HOPE, JUST OVER 50
64:34YEARS AFTER FOUR LITTLE GIRLS WERE KILLED IN A
64:41 A BOMBING AT A BLACK CHURCH IN ALABAMA, HE SAID
64:47THEY LED NOBLE LIVES AND DIED NOBODILY. HE SAID BLACK AND
64:51WHITE ALIKE WE MUST SUBSTITUTE COURAGE FOR CAUTION, THEY SAY TO
64:55US THAT WE MUST BE CONCERNED NOT MERELY WITH WHO MURDERED THEM
64:58BUT ABOUT THE SYSTEM, THE WAY OF LIFE, THE PHILOSOPHY, WHICH
65:04PRODUCED THE MURDERS, THEIR DEATH SAYS TO US THAT WE MUST
65:08WORK PASSIONATELY AND UNRELENTINGLY FOR THE
65:14REALIZATION OF THE AMERICAN DREAM, AND IF ONE WILL HOLD ON,
65:16HE WILL DISCOVER THAT GOD WALKS WITH HIM AND THAT GOD IS ABLE TO
65:20LIFT YOU FROM THE FATIGUE OF DESPAIR TO THE BUOYANCY OF HOPE,
65:26AND TRANSFORM DARK AND DESOLATE VALLEYS INTO SUN-LIT PATHS OF
65:32INNER PEACE.
65:36 REVEREND PINCKNEY AND HIS CONGREGATION UNDERSTOOD
65:40THAT SPIRIT. THEIR CHRISTIAN FAITH COMPELLED THEM TO REACH
65:43OUT NOT JUST TO MEMBERS OF THEIR CONGREGATION, OR TO MEMBERS OF
65:52THEIR OWN COMMUNITIES BUT TO ALL. THEY OPENED THEIR DOORS TO
65:59STRANGERS, WHO MIGHT ENTER A CHURCH IN SEARCH
66:05 OF HEALING, OR REDEMPTION. MOTHER EMMANUEL
66:08CHURCH AND ITS CONGREGATION HAVE RISEN BEFORE FROM FLAMES, FROM
66:11AN EARTHQUAKE, FROM OTHER DARK TIMES, TO GIVE HOPE TO
66:16GENERATIONS OF CHARLESTONNIANS AND WITH OUR PRAYERS AND OUR
66:19LOVE AND THE BUOYANCY OF HOPE
Last edited by DispositionMatrix on Thu Jun 18, 2015 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 9 dead in Charleston, South Carolina church shooting

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This is too fucking tragic. There are no words to assuage the unimaginable shock and anguish suffered by people in this community...

Yet the media floods in at the first scent of blood, like sharks. They will shine a spotlight on the suffering, and exploit the survivors while simultaneously erecting the corpses into a morbid soapbox facsimile for whatever ideological bugbear they choose. Then they will leave as suddenly as they came, maybe when an actor says something stupid.

So here we have gun control, race and religion - there may be a shitstorm of ideological boogeymen to blame, media shouting matches between competing wild generalizations which all conveniently eschew reality.

When the story broke last night a Muslim friend of mine was like "please don't let it be a Muslim, anything but a Muslim." How messed up are we with identity politics in this country when our first reaction is to fear the inevitable generalizations?


I read the police are treating it like a hate crime, motivated purely by racism. There is evidence of that, both from witness statements and what we know of the killer. A despicable, cowardly act perpetrated by a racist asshole.
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