hondo2K0 wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 8:29 am
Evo1 wrote: Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:55 pm
hondo2K0 wrote: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:52 pm
YankeeTarheel wrote: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:24 pm
A strange man gets in your GF's or wife's face, you're going to put him down. Yes, parking in a HC spot is a dick move. But there was no threat to Drejka's life and his SYG defense is bullshit.
Nope, I shall tell him first to get lost and if anybody is going to shoot him it is going to be my wife it is easier for her to verbalize feeling of being in fear for her life and lives of our children. As soon as I put my hands on obnoxious prick first, I became the aggressor and I forfeited my life and well being as they are now defending themselves, even if person provoked an initial confrontation they are still entitled on self-defense as long as their actions were nonphysical.
Was there a threat to Drejka's life or not is subjective as far as I am concerned if somebody struck you so violently that you fall to the ground and in this case attacker blindsided him as it can be seen in the video, a reasonable person has every reason to be in fear for their life as person who hits you once most likely is going to keep hitting you . Expecting for somebody who already acted violently to stop after the first hit is stupid. But as I always tell people:" Feel free to let somebody to use you as a punching bag, just do not expect me to the same."
If Drejka called cops McGlockton would be arrested and charged with assault.
McGlockton failed to learn a simple lesson that any of us taught our kids around age 3-6:"We talk with our words, not our hands and feet, we use our hands and feet to convey message only to those who use their hands and feets instead words to talk"
At the moment he pulled the trigger, there was not an imminent threat to his life, which is what SYG requires. He pushed him to the ground (he shoved him, not punched him, and it doesn't take much to do that if you catch someone off guard), then stepped back and started turning away. Yes, McGlockton assaulted him, but self-defense isn't the same thing as revenge. You don't get to shoot someone to get even. You don't even get to shoot them just because you think he might hurt you later. There has to be a continuing imminent threat of death or great bodily harm, or at least the reasonable belief that such is the case. Simply standing several feet away after having shoved someone doesn't present such a threat. You might be afraid that the guy could continue his assault (though it's unlikely if you're holding a gun on him), but that's not an imminent threat, which is what Florida law requires, and any belief that he might renew his assault is speculative at best, not a reasonable belief, unless he's telegraphing his intent to do so.
Watch the video - McGlockton steps back and turns away slightly, the opposite of a threatening move, and only then does Drejka shoot him. He had time to see that pulling his gun had stopped the assault, which legally ends McGlockton's role as aggressor. Then he decided to shoot. As the sheriff even pointed out, there was a "troubling" delay between pulling the gun and pulling the trigger. Pointing a gun at someone is also assault, and a felony assault at that if not justified. If that assault stops the initial aggressor, you've ended the threat. The fact that Drekja took long enough to make that assessment before he shot, and McGlockton made no threatening move in between, means that Drejka became the aggressor when he fired. While he might have been in reasonable fear for his life at the moment he pulled his gun, he didn't shoot then. He waited until McGlockton stepped back and turned, which removed the imminent component of fear required by SYG.
Was McGlockton wrong to turn the incident physical? Of course. That's just idiotic macho bullshit, and a crime (although only a misdemeanor). But was he presenting an imminent threat to Drejka's life at the moment the trigger was pulled? Not even remotely. This was murder, plain and simple.
In the real world, showing and pushing by the reasonable standard is placing an open hand on to somebodies person and moving them out of your personal space no further than the fully extended arm. McGlockton struck Drejka using speed as he runs up to him, two-handed strike using full force and all body strength for that reason Drejka went flying before he landed on the pavement.
If McGlockton ran away, drove away or was subdued and unable to continue attack then Drejka would be guilty as McGlocton took none of those steps , he was a threat to Drejka , he was towering over him and could commence attack in a blink of the eye.
Totally of the facts is what matters in eyes of the law, Drejka pulled a gun and McGlocton did nothing to show that he is no longer the threat.
Is it a misdemeanor? It depends on Drejka's injuries. Hitting somebody with a closed fist in the chest is simple assault, hitting somebody in the head is a disregard for human health and life and if they lost consciences even for a sec it is aggravated assault.
People need to learn do not put paws on the other people, it can get you killed.
On the other note, your average cop deals with 3 to 5 obnoxious, loud and argumentative people like Drejka every day.
He shoved him. Just because he shoved him hard with both hands and put his weight behind it doesn't make it anything other than a shove. And yes, it's a misdemeanor. Your characterization of aggravated assault is incorrect. Under Florida law, aggravated assault is assault with a deadly weapon (which Drejka committed when he pulled his gun and pointed it), or assault with intent to commit a felony. All other assault is simple assault, and is a misdemeanor
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/ind ... 4.021.html.
However, even if he had sucker-punched him in the head (which would still be simple assault), this is still not legal self defense for the use of deadly force. You're using the wrong standard, the fake one promulgated by the anti crowd, for assessing what is legal under Florida law. The fact that McGlockton was a potential threat is not enough under the law. SYG does not lower the standard for self defense that has always existed in Florida and pretty much everywhere else in the US. This is a mischaracterization created by anti groups after the law passed to try to discredit it. All SYG did was to formalize the fact that you do not have a duty to retreat, and provide for protections from prosecution
if, and only if the act met the already existing standard for justifiable self-defense. No change to that standard was made.
And under that standard, you have to have more than just a fear of injury or death, and the threat has to be more than just possible or even likely. The standard for self defense that has existed for decades through the entire US, and is still the legal standard in Florida, is that you have to believe that the threat of death or serious physical injury is imminent, you have to believe that lethal force is necessary to prevent the imminent threat, and that belief has to be reasonable. See Florida statute 776.012(2)
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/ind ... 6.012.html.
Drejka's actions failed to meet this standard on all three points. First, while McGlackton could have reinitiated his attack, he wasn't making any moves to do so. He was, in fact, moving back, which signals disengagement. So there was no imminent threat (google the legal meaning of imminent if you disagree*). Second, the use of lethal force was not necessary to stop the threat. McGlockton was already stepping back at the mere threat of lethal force. Unless he started telegraphing an intent to reengage, that threat was already sufficient, which Drejka paused long enough to see, and so lethal force wasn't necessary. And third, given that McGlockton did step back, even if Drejka believed there was still an imminent threat, that belief wasn't reasonable. The sheriff in this case simply failed to do his duty, whether because he is ignorant of the law (wouldn't be the first LEO, or especially CLEO, that's true of), or because he is intentionally mischaracterizing it for political reasons (which is also extremely common). He had clear probable cause to arrest and charge Drejka for criminal homicide, because it wasn't reasonable to believe that there was an imminent threat or that lethal force was necessary to stop it.
Yes, you're right, people need to learn that escalating a disagreement to any level of physical violence is unacceptable. But to abuse reasonable self defense laws by completely misinterpreting them so as to allow vigilante justice, which is what claiming Drejka was even remotely not in the wrong is doing, not only won't teach that lesson, it will ultimately cause those reasonable laws to be overturned.
*To illustrate how this case does not meet the legal standard of 'imminent threat' or 'necessary to prevent' under Florida law, consider how this situation differs from the Travon Martin case. In that case, Martin (according to all available evidence - don't want to argue all the BS conjecture over that) was in the act of slamming Zimmerman's head against the concrete. At that point, serious physical injury was imminent, as in immediate, right now, not simply suppositional or possible at some moment in the future. Florida law explicitly requires that the threat be imminent, not merely possible in the future even in the very near future. Also, Zimmerman was struggling with Martin, and was not apparently not able to stop himself from being physically assaulted by his own strength, and so firing his weapon was arguably necessary to stop the attack. Contrast this with this case - McGlockton was standing several feet away, and had taken a step back and started to turn away (there was another car behind him, so he couldn't keep going back). So, even though his position might have been somewhat threatening, that threat wasn't imminent. At the same time, Drejka already had his gun pointed directly at McGlockton. Had McGlockton started to reengage (which he didn't, making lethal force unnecessary), Drejka had plenty of time and reaction space to use lethal force to stop him. He was under no imminent threat, and lethal force wasn't necessary to prevent his own death or serious physical injury. He was either just scared and reacting out of fear of a
potential threat, or he was angry and decided to get his own blow in. Either way, his action clearly did not meet the standard for self defense under Florida law. He committed murder.