Re: Young v. Hawaii (Open carry win in Hawaii/California)

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max129 wrote:
featureless said:

I'm not a fan of open carry
+1 - I understand the open carry sentiment, and I think it is definitely 2A. I just don't want to walk around thinking somebody will be reaching for my firearm all day. I live at DEFCON4 - to me open carry feels like I shifted to DEFCON2 on my own accord.
Fortunately the ability to open carry legally would not be the requirement to open carry.
sbɐɯ ʎʇıɔɐdɐɔ pɹɐpuɐʇs ɟo ןןnɟ ǝɟɐs
ɯɯ6 bdd ɹǝɥʇןɐʍ
13ʞ
"ǝuıqɹɐɔ 1ɐ4ɯ" dɯɐʇsןןoɹ --- ɯoɔos0269ǝן ʇןoɔ
"ǝuıqɹɐɔ ʇuǝɯǝɔɹoɟuǝ ʍɐן sʇןoɔ" dɯɐʇsןןoɹ --- 0269ǝן ʇןoɔ
(béɟ) 59-pɯɐ

Re: Young v. Hawaii (Open carry win in Hawaii/California)

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The L.A. Times Editorial Board does not like open carry either and is unhappy with the ruling.
How not to deal with the open carry of guns
The Supreme Court ruled a decade ago — and for the first time — that the 2nd Amendment grants individuals the right to keep firearms in their homes for personal protection. It was the wrong decision; courts until then operated under the belief that the 2nd Amendment was framed with state militias in mind. But joined by four conservative colleagues, Justice Antonin Scalia found in the District of Columbia vs. Heller that the Constitution protects the right of individuals to keep and bear arms, albeit not without limits.
The heart of the decision is the belief that the 2nd Amendment, as interpreted in Heller, grants a right to keep (as in own) and to bear (as in carry) arms for self-protection in both the home and in public, where the danger of life-threatening interactions also exists. In other words, the need for self-protection, and thus for a firearm, doesn’t stop at the front door.

If there’s any good news here it’s that the judge who wrote the 2-1 majority opinion, Diarmuid O'Scannlain, came to a similar conclusion in Peruta vs. San Diego County four years ago. In that case, the majority held that the 2nd Amendment also conveys a right to carry a concealed weapon. But the 9th Circuit Court overturned that decision after an en banc hearing, and the Supreme Court later refused to hear the case. We hope that Hawaii officials will seek a broader appellate review, and that Young vs. Hawaii goes the same way as Peruta.

Re: Young v. Hawaii (Open carry win in Hawaii/California)

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CDFingers wrote: Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:52 am Nah: you don't get to change the definition of "keep" and "bear."

CDFingers
No shit. I don't know why that interpretation is so difficult for people (and the courts). Any peak into the history of the 2A confirms it means what Heller says it means.

While the courts seem to be tortured about this, Heller is actually very clear. After spending 11 pages of the ruling pouring over what "keep" (spoiler: not a castle) and "bear" (spoiler: not a big fuzzy animal) means, it concludes on page 19 that: "Meaning of the Operative Clause. Putting all of these textual elements together, we find that they guarantee the individual right to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation."

Heller even defines "bear" using Ginsburg's definition of "surely a most familiar meaning is, as the Constitution’s Second Amendment . . . indicates: ‘wear, bear, or carry . . . upon the person or in the clothing or in a pocket, for the purpose . . . of being armed and ready for offensive or defensive action in a case of conflict with another person.’"

Heller even contains a STFU directive for lower courts: "A constitutional guarantee subject to future judges’ assessments of its usefulness is no constitutional guarantee at all. Constitutional rights are enshrined with the scope they were understood to have when the people adopted them, whether or not future legislatures or (yes) even future judges think that scope too broad."

Re: Young v. Hawaii (Open carry win in Hawaii/California)

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A little background on Young:
Unlikely pair could usher gun rights case to U.S. Supreme Court
“I went around the state of Hawaii and contacted about 17 attorneys and all of them turned me down. They said I would only lose,” said Young, 68. “I want to see it through to the end, which is the U.S. Supreme Court.”
Hawaii allows only people who work in security or who can demonstrate to law enforcement officials that they have an “exceptional case” to carry weapons, concealed or openly.
Hawaii is may-issue per statute but no-issue in practice--requiring an "exceptional case" for issuing a permit. So there no right to bear arms in Hawaii.
Instead Young paired up with Beck, a solo practitioner who learned of Young’s story and offered to represent him for free.

Re: Young v. Hawaii (Open carry win in Hawaii/California)

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Hawaii just got an extension to file for a re-hearing or hearing en banc in the 9th Circuit.
In light of the magnitude of the opinion, the County is pursuing the retention of outside counsel, for which additional time is necessary.
They were granted until 9/14/2018 to file it. Wonder if Young's side will bring in some big names if this goes en banc - Alan Gura, 2A Foundation; Paul Clement; NSSF or NRA lawyers etc. The 9th Circuit has televised some en banc hearings.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Young v. Hawaii (Open carry win in Hawaii/California)

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highdesert wrote: Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:41 pm Hawaii just got an extension to file for a re-hearing or hearing en banc in the 9th Circuit.
In light of the magnitude of the opinion, the County is pursuing the retention of outside counsel, for which additional time is necessary.
They were granted until 9/14/2018 to file it. Wonder if Young's side will bring in some big names if this goes en banc - Alan Gura, 2A Foundation; Paul Clement; NSSF or NRA lawyers etc. The 9th Circuit has televised some en banc hearings.
It's the 9th. Young is going to lose regardless of counsel.

Re: Young v. Hawaii (Open carry win in Hawaii/California)

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DispositionMatrix wrote: Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:42 pm
highdesert wrote: Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:41 pm Hawaii just got an extension to file for a re-hearing or hearing en banc in the 9th Circuit.
In light of the magnitude of the opinion, the County is pursuing the retention of outside counsel, for which additional time is necessary.
They were granted until 9/14/2018 to file it. Wonder if Young's side will bring in some big names if this goes en banc - Alan Gura, 2A Foundation; Paul Clement; NSSF or NRA lawyers etc. The 9th Circuit has televised some en banc hearings.
It's the 9th. Young is going to lose regardless of counsel.
They do have a reputation, if it's accepted for en banc then it's up to random selection of 11 circuit judges. Even if Young loses en banc and it goes to SCOTUS, there might not be five votes to win even with Kavanaugh replacing Kennedy.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Young v. Hawaii (Open carry win in Hawaii/California)

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highdesert wrote: Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:57 pm
DispositionMatrix wrote: Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:42 pm
highdesert wrote: Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:41 pm Hawaii just got an extension to file for a re-hearing or hearing en banc in the 9th Circuit.
In light of the magnitude of the opinion, the County is pursuing the retention of outside counsel, for which additional time is necessary.
They were granted until 9/14/2018 to file it. Wonder if Young's side will bring in some big names if this goes en banc - Alan Gura, 2A Foundation; Paul Clement; NSSF or NRA lawyers etc. The 9th Circuit has televised some en banc hearings.
It's the 9th. Young is going to lose regardless of counsel.
They do have a reputation, if it's accepted for en banc then it's up to random selection of 11 circuit judges. Even if Young loses en banc and it goes to SCOTUS, there might not be five votes to win even with Kavanaugh replacing Kennedy.
SCOTUS probably would decline to hear the case, and if they did hear it my guess is the court would rule against Young.

Re: Young v. Hawaii (Open carry win in Hawaii/California)

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featureless wrote:Looks like the state of Hawaii has filed requesting en banc. The 9th will almost certainly side with the state that prohibiting rights in the name of public safety is the way to play. At least 2A rights.
Yep.
sbɐɯ ʎʇıɔɐdɐɔ pɹɐpuɐʇs ɟo ןןnɟ ǝɟɐs
ɯɯ6 bdd ɹǝɥʇןɐʍ
13ʞ
"ǝuıqɹɐɔ 1ɐ4ɯ" dɯɐʇsןןoɹ --- ɯoɔos0269ǝן ʇןoɔ
"ǝuıqɹɐɔ ʇuǝɯǝɔɹoɟuǝ ʍɐן sʇןoɔ" dɯɐʇsןןoɹ --- 0269ǝן ʇןoɔ
(béɟ) 59-pɯɐ

Re: Young v. Hawaii (Open carry win in Hawaii/California)

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An order of Sidney Thomas of MT, Chief Judge of the 9th Circuit. As featureless mentioned,
The three-judge panel disposition in this case shall not be cited as precedent by or to any court of the Ninth Circuit.
http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/o ... -17808.pdf
The 9th Circuit covers: Alaska; Hawaii; Washington; Montana; Idaho; Oregon; Nevada; California; Arizona; Guam and the Marianas.

We know how this will end, but maybe they'll surprise us.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Young v. Hawaii (Open carry win in Hawaii/California)

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featureless wrote: Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:21 pm Young's attorney has said this case will be stayed pending SCOTUS ruling on the New York handgun transport case. I don't know if this is good or bad news. Probably better than a current en banc decision would be, just won't know until 2020 or so. What's another year or two for a denied constitutional right?
SCOTUS having neglected their duty on the 10 2A cases before them earlier this year, the 9th is now moving on the en banc for Young. Panel was released and it doesn't look terrible but... Orals are September 24.

Sidney R. Thomas,67,Clinton
Diarmuid O'Scannlain,79,Reagan (now Senior)
M. Margaret McKeown,69,Clinton
Kim McLane Wardlaw,66,Clinton
William A. Fletcher,75,Clinton
Richard Clifton,66,G.W. Bush (now Senior)
Jay Bybee,66,G.W. Bush
Consuelo Callahan,70,G.W. Bush
Sandra Segal Ikuta,66,G.W. Bush
Michelle Friedland,48,Obama
Ryan D. Nelson,47,Trump

https://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/calendar/v ... &year=2020

Re: Young v. Hawaii (Open carry win in Hawaii/California)

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featureless wrote: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:58 am
featureless wrote: Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:21 pm Young's attorney has said this case will be stayed pending SCOTUS ruling on the New York handgun transport case. I don't know if this is good or bad news. Probably better than a current en banc decision would be, just won't know until 2020 or so. What's another year or two for a denied constitutional right?
SCOTUS having neglected their duty on the 10 2A cases before them earlier this year, the 9th is now moving on the en banc for Young. Panel was released and it doesn't look terrible but... Orals are September 24.

Sidney R. Thomas,67,Clinton
Diarmuid O'Scannlain,79,Reagan (now Senior)
M. Margaret McKeown,69,Clinton
Kim McLane Wardlaw,66,Clinton
William A. Fletcher,75,Clinton
Richard Clifton,66,G.W. Bush (now Senior)
Jay Bybee,66,G.W. Bush
Consuelo Callahan,70,G.W. Bush
Sandra Segal Ikuta,66,G.W. Bush
Michelle Friedland,48,Obama
Ryan D. Nelson,47,Trump

https://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/calendar/v ... &year=2020
On February 13,2012, a 9th Circuit panel issued the famous decision in Peruta vs County of San Diego and the panel was composed of Sydney Thomas, Diarmuid O'Scannlain and Consuelo Callahan. O'Scannlain and Callahan voted for Peruta, Thomas against. Sydney Thomas of Montana is the Chief Judge of the circuit, so he'll preside at the en banc hearing. Callahan was the senior judge on the panel in the Duncan vs Becerra decision recently issued.

IIRC Fletcher wrote the en banc opinion that overturned the panel in Peruta.

Jay Bybee was a lawyer in the Bush administration before his appointment. In 2018 in Pena vs Lundley concerning the CA Roster, McKeown wrote the majority opinion supporting the state and Bybee wrote a dissent.

The president that appointed them is usually telling.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Young v. Hawaii (Open carry win in Hawaii/California)

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Young v Hawaii was heard en banc by judges of the 9th Circuit of the US Court of Appeals. A three judge panel of the 9th Circuit earlier ruled in favor of Young and this is an appeal by the state of Hawaii.

Young v Hawaii




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cg_1J3Dj0E

While the 9th Circuit is headquartered in San Francisco, the circuit includes the states of CA, HA, AZ, NV, ID, MT, WA, OR and AK with 28 judges.

UPDATED: The 9th Circuit had the wrong links.
Last edited by highdesert on Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Young v. Hawaii (Open carry win in Hawaii/California)

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featureless wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:13 pm Perhaps after we lose this at CA9, SCOTUS will try out a gun case with their new justice... It could be the one silver lining of the last 4 years of utter bullshit. Before RBG passed, the stage was set for continued erosion of 2A rights for a generation after they denied the 10 cases this summer.
SCOTUS might have had diversity in terms of gender and race, but it didn't have diversity in terms of geography. All those justices came from the Eastern seaboard and all went to Ivy League law schools on the East Coast, they didn't represent the whole US. We need geographic diversity on SCOTUS if it's decisions apply to the whole US. The only positives about Barrett is she's from Indiana and didn't go to an Ivy League law school.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Young v. Hawaii (Open carry win in Hawaii/California)

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highdesert wrote: Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:25 pmThe only positives about Barrett is she's from Indiana and didn't go to an Ivy League law school.
Two more potential positives: she has adopted two black children from Haiti, so is likely not racist and likely has some idea how fucked the immigration system is; and, she is raising a biological child with downs, so may have some idea of how important accessible healthcare is and that the world ain't fair to everyone and some people need additional protections/resources under the law.

Yes, she's conservative. Yes, she's religious. But she may have a heart and compassion for others. We'll see.

As far as abortion, I don't have a problem with people who are pro life in their personal lives. I have a problem with people who foist that belief on others.

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