Re: Ohio police shoot and kill teenage girl who called for help just as Derek Chauvin guilty verdict is handed down

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Nah. I would still argue that a cop who executes a teenage girl would be criticized far worse than one who tried to control a crowd of fighting teenagers but “allowed” a teenage girl to be stabbed. Think about it. Are we really that inured by police shootings now? A stabbing is a far cry from being shot. And remember, in this case the officer was not the one who’s life was threatened. He could have tried and failed rather than assume absolute control over the situation by acting as judge and jury like a Robocop.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: Ohio police shoot and kill teenage girl who called for help just as Derek Chauvin guilty verdict is handed down

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This isn't the Andre Hill case, the situations are very different. Some might question why the cop in this case fired four shots at the 15 year old and why the cop in Chicago in the Adam Toledo case only fired one shot. Training, threat level, fast moving...the state bureau will look at it all including the videos frame by frame.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Ohio police shoot and kill teenage girl who called for help just as Derek Chauvin guilty verdict is handed down

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Bisbee wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:53 am Nah. I would still argue that a cop who executes a teenage girl would be criticized far worse than one who tried to control a crowd of fighting teenagers but “allowed” a teenage girl to be stabbed. Think about it. Are we really that inured by police shootings now? A stabbing is a far cry from being shot. And remember, in this case the officer was not the one who’s life was threatened. He could have tried and failed rather than assume absolute control over the situation by acting as judge and jury like a Robocop.
So Bisbee, let me ask you this...

If an enraged say 150lb teenager with a 6" or so knife, who's already attacked at least one person with the knife (along with a male accomplice who might gang up on you too?), was now within a foot or so of you raising the knife intent on causing you to be stabbed/seriously injured/killed...

...and...

...someone was a few yards away with a firearm...

...would you rather be stabbed/seriously injured/killed to confirm your obvious bias, or, would you instead want the person with the firearm to save you from being stabbed/seriously injured/killed (remember your husband/wife/kids/pets, parents and friends etc when you answer!)?

I can't believe you said this, "A stabbing is a far cry from being shot", so, would you say the same thing if the knife was plunging into your neck and/or gut?

NOTE: Being stabbed and/or shot is correctly termed ATTEMPTED MURDER WITH A DEADLY WEAPON!

Re: Ohio police shoot and kill teenage girl who called for help just as Derek Chauvin guilty verdict is handed down

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I simply don’t agree with American police training where everything is made into such a personal threat and the only tool in the toolbox is the gun. In Japan for example the police are trained in martial arts and rely on other tactics of compliance enforcement (including creative baton techniques) rather than just the gun. They certainly do not consider “feared for life” as a reasonable enough excuse to shoot someone if only because you have to manage your fears as part of the job and protecting life -all life- is the primary aim.

I wish for people to expand their perspective a little to ask how this situation simply did not warrant the use of a gun. Or rather wonder if there were other tools available to the police which starts with training and departmental policy.

I’m unsatisfied when arguments are so narrow that people merely do hand wringing over the shooting of an enraged teenage girl. They give lip service to the sanctity of life and let police shootings pass as if better options which exists all over the world and even in some parts of the United States are not even considered. Because I guarantee that if this was a group of wild white kids fighting, somebody may have gotten cut but nobody would have gotten shot by the police.

But again, I admit to be armchair quarterbacking here. Just inserting my perspective based on experiences from living overseas.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: Ohio police shoot and kill teenage girl who called for help just as Derek Chauvin guilty verdict is handed down

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You didn't answer the question did you?

Living overseas where I also spent considerable time in my lifetime has no bearing here, apples and oranges, and we're discussing this singular unique case in Ohio USA (face it, the USA is a violent place, though not as bad as Mexico, Brazil, Venezuela etc, yet?). Martial Arts would not have stopped the threat from that distance, and you know it, and you should also consider that the officers want to go home each night to their families too, so going hands-on with someone intending to seriously injure/kill with a deadly weapon is not any sane person's first choice.

I think we all wish things could be better, and we know there are a number of variables at play including systemic racism, economic opportunity, gangs, drugs, politics, broken families (the deceased was from a broken home, likely abused, and living in a foster home at the time of her death), among other things, but none of that has anything to do with the fact that a police officer had a split second to either let a unarmed non-aggressor get stabbed/seriously injured/killed (or more as the lady in pink was the deceased girl's second target?), or end the threat from a distance the only way available to him at the time (not to mention that it was some amazing shooting due the proximity of the intended stabbing victim to the target, plus others in the vicinity).

Sad but true...

Re: Ohio police shoot and kill teenage girl who called for help just as Derek Chauvin guilty verdict is handed down

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To me I see this discussion about police violence as somewhat similar in feel as how we debated the healthcare crisis in the United States. For example these days I no longer feel I need to answer questions about how Universal Healthcare can work in our anachronistic private health insurance market when health insurance is simply treated as a public good to our neighbors up north and all around the world. Those truly looking for solutions will find it all around us while others worried about any kind of change will incessantly raise “whataboutisms” rather than move toward any solution. I don’t feel the questions of providing healthcare for all peoples is about financial or social challenges at all but is largely one of political will. For that reason I also look at racism and unjust police shootings in similar ways. It is a matter of leadership, governance and the will to overcome racism.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: Ohio police shoot and kill teenage girl who called for help just as Derek Chauvin guilty verdict is handed down

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Bisbee wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:00 pm To me I see this discussion about police violence as somewhat similar in feel as how we debated the healthcare crisis in the United States. For example these days I no longer feel I need to answer questions about how Universal Healthcare can work in our anachronistic private health insurance market when health insurance is simply treated as a public good to our neighbors up north and all around the world. Those truly looking for solutions will find it all around us while others worried about any kind of change will incessantly raise “whataboutisms” rather than move toward any solution. I don’t feel the questions of providing healthcare for all peoples is about financial or social challenges at all but is largely one of political will. For that reason I also look at racism and unjust police shootings in similar ways. It is a matter of leadership, governance and the will to overcome racism.
Sure, no doubt, except that when it comes to legally untangling police shootings, every one is a unique set of circumstances and facts, and sometimes criminal activity has serious consequences, especially when the criminal act has the potential for serious bodily injury or death, and sometimes that criminal activity is perpetrated by law enforcement (i.e. George Floyd among others...).

People should ideally love one another, share with one another, and not be killing or maiming one another, though sadly it's not going to happen in our lifetimes, if ever (I don't have much faith in the human race at this time LOL!).

Re: Ohio police shoot and kill teenage girl who called for help just as Derek Chauvin guilty verdict is handed down

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Bisbee wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:00 pm To me I see this discussion about police violence as somewhat similar in feel as how we debated the healthcare crisis in the United States. For example these days I no longer feel I need to answer questions about how Universal Healthcare can work in our anachronistic private health insurance market when health insurance is simply treated as a public good to our neighbors up north and all around the world. Those truly looking for solutions will find it all around us while others worried about any kind of change will incessantly raise “whataboutisms” rather than move toward any solution. I don’t feel the questions of providing healthcare for all peoples is about financial or social challenges at all but is largely one of political will. For that reason I also look at racism and unjust police shootings in similar ways. It is a matter of leadership, governance and the will to overcome racism.
Agree.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Ohio police shoot and kill teenage girl who called for help just as Derek Chauvin guilty verdict is handed down

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A black LAPD officer responded to a LeBron James tweet.
Deon Joseph admires LeBron James, his many accomplishments as a community activist and philanthropist and his magic on the basketball court with the Lakers, a team Joseph has cheered his entire life.

But when the Los Angeles Police Department officer who patrols skid row saw a Twitter post from James commenting on the fatal police shooting of a 16-year-old girl in Columbus, Ohio, last week, he felt compelled to write his own response. Joseph’s post — which called James’ comments “off base and extreme” — went viral, especially in conservative media outlets that played up the officer’s criticism.

Joseph said he was surprised by all the attention and didn’t like the right-wing spin that he was going to war with James. Rather, he said, he wanted to start a dialogue. “I’m not trying to shame him,” Joseph said. “I want to have a conversation. And even if he doesn’t want to have a conversation with me, at least sit down someday and talk to a police officer and find out who they are instead of summing up who we are.”

At issue was a tweet James made about the police shooting of Ma’Khia Bryant, a 16-year-old girl shown on police body camera charging at two people with a knife. It showed a photo of the officer believed to have shot and killed the girl, and called for accountability. James wrote, “YOU’RE NEXT #ACCOUNTABILITY,” in an apparent reference to the conviction of former Minneapolis police Officer Derek Chauvin in the murder of George Floyd.

Before James deleted the tweet, it was widely shared. He said he took it down “because [it’s] being used to create more hate.” Joseph said he was bothered by the tweet and took to Facebook with an open letter.

I’m so damn tired of seeing Black people killed by police. I took the tweet down because its being used to create more hate -This isn’t about one officer. it’s about the entire system and they always use our words to create more racism. I am so desperate for more ACCOUNTABILITY
— LeBron James (@KingJames) April 21, 2021


Joseph starts by saying, “I am not going to come at you from a place of hatred. There will be no name-calling. I was raised to see the whole of a human being. Not to hyper-focus on their flaws or make said flaws the whole of who they are. I’m an honest man.” The law enforcement veteran said he took issue with James’ comments about policing — particularly in reference to the Ohio shooting.

“Your current stance on policing is so off base and extreme. Your tweet that targeted a police officer in Ohio who saved a young woman’s life was irresponsible and disturbing. It showed a complete lack of understanding of the challenge of our job in the heat of a moment,” Joseph said. “You basically put a target on the back of a human being who had to make a split-second decision to save a life from a deadly attack ... a decision I know he and many others wish they never had to make. Especially when it involves someone so young.”

A 25-year officer, Joseph has gained a measure of fame for his work on skid row, being featured in documentaries and giving TED talks about the issues of homelessness and mental illness. He’s spent all but two of those years working with the unhoused in downtown Los Angeles. He has been called the “angel of skid row” and created a program to distribute hygiene kits to homeless people. When U.S. District Court Judge David O. Carter wanted to learn about skid row, it was Joseph who showed him daily life there. Joseph, a married father of three boys, was featured on HGTV’s “Home Makeover” as a reward for his good works.

Joseph said in an interview he knows policing needs reforms and that he was not trying to defend abusive behavior. “But you can’t always stop humanity. With humanity comes imperfections. As long as human beings are a part of any profession, things can happen,” he said. “It’s not an excuse, it’s a reality. Apathy, brutality, insensitivity, racism, bias ... these things are not police traits. They are human traits, and they exist in all professions. But I also believe that is the exception, not the rule.”

He said he wrote the letter in part because he feels the public needs to distinguish between unjustified and justified use of force by officers. There has been debate about the officer’s actions in Columbus. A 10-second body-camera clip shows an officer taking a few steps toward a group when a Black girl starts swinging a knife at another person, who falls backward. The girl, identified as Ma’Khia Bryant, then charges at another person, who is pinned against a car.

From a few feet away, with people on both sides of him, the officer fires four shots, and the teen slumps to the ground. A black-handled knife falls next to her on the sidewalk. After taking down his tweet about the shooting, James posted: “I’m so damn tired of seeing Black people killed by police. ... This isn’t about one officer. It’s about the entire system.”

In his letter, Joseph asks James not to paint all officers with that same brush. “You are tired of Black folks dying? So am I. You hate racism and police brutality? So do I. But you cannot paint 800,000 men and women who are of all races, faiths, sexual orientations and are also mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, preachers, coaches, community members and just humans with such a broad and destructive brush.”

Some of Joseph’s concerns about the generalization that “police are inherently evil” is a common critique by those in policing circles. James’ tweet did not actually take a swipe at all officers but was responding to the Columbus case. Najee Ali, a longtime Los Angeles activist who has led demonstrations against police, said he believes James’ voice on matters of policing is important and powerful. LeBron James is speaking out and shouldn’t stop speaking out for justice,” Ali said.

At the same time, he said he “understands the spirit of the words Deon Joseph used in the letter and knows the officer is talking from the heart, but part of that conversation has to be about the unjustified murders of Black people by police.”
https://www.latimes.com/california/stor ... n-policing
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Ohio police shoot and kill teenage girl who called for help just as Derek Chauvin guilty verdict is handed down

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And this is a big part of the problem. Given the propensity of mistreatment by too many police officers against Black people, and the further propensity for other officers to circle the wagons in defense of the bad actors, it can be kinda tough to trust the police now after they shoot yet another Black person. I don't know enough about this specific situation in Columbus to comment on it definitively; maybe that girl was defending herself from attack, maybe she wasn't, we don't know for sure. But the reason for the skepticism of "good shoot" comes from all the "bad shoots" and "bad stops" and "bad ass-whuppins" that Black people have faced at the hands of police, plus the demonstrated racist attitudes like we saw in PM's between San Francisco PD officers a few years back.
"SF Liberal With A Gun + Free Software Advocate"
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