Re: Kyle Rittenhouse pre-trial

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featureless wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 11:51 pm I'm a little worried the media has spun this so far at both extremes there will be riots either way the verdict goes. And so it goes, I suppose.
Same. I’m not a fan of media trial by audience. Way too much is continuously reported to people before jury selection and during trials. It’s not an f’n game show.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse pre-trial

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This was doomed from the start, when Jacob Blake was shot by a Kenosha cop and protest groups painted that shooting as another George Floyd incident which it wasn't. The Kenosha cop was investigated by the WI AG and later cleared by the same DA who is prosecuting Rittenhouse and by US DOJ. That incident drew left and right wing protesters while we were in the midst of a contentious presidential election and this became politicized. The media defined the sides and damn the evidence.

I expect some protests when the verdict is announced, I just hope they don't get violent. Evers was smart to bring in the National Guard and I expect law enforcement around WI will be on alert.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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Who else is watching the Spanish TV series, ”Money Heist,” on Netflix?

They writing, plot, dialogue is fantastic. The robbers pretend to be social activists, actively provoke the government and police to over-react and send riot police and national guard into the streets. This in turn motivates impassioned citizens to take to the streets in protest to defend a cause they think they believe in. In essence the robbers use the people and their social discontent as cover for their own crimes. It is a cynical view of non-violent action in society (or any social movement for that matter) but it does reveal the weakness of an angry and mis-informed populace in a democracy. It also illustrates how governments and police often overuse that show of force and thus make situations worse by multiples of 10.

Fear of riots. Anger against perceived injustice. Loss of control. All the while a game is afoot to manipulate everyone involved to fight each other. Sounds eerily familiar.

https://www.gq.com/story/money-heist-netflix-profile
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

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An unusual group of robbers attempt to carry out the most perfect robbery in Spanish history - stealing 2.4 billion euros from the Royal Mint of Spain.
It generated over 3,000 reviews.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6468322/re ... ef_=tt_urv

Espana ! Not my usual genre, but I'll check out at least one episode as Bisbee's description of the manipulation is intriguing.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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Bisbee wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:31 am Who else is watching the Spanish TV series, ”Money Heist,” on Netflix?

They writing, plot, dialogue is fantastic. The robbers pretend to be social activists, actively provoke the government and police to over-react and send riot police and national guard into the streets. This in turn motivates impassioned citizens to take to the streets in protest to defend a cause they think they believe in. In essence the robbers use the people and their social discontent as cover for their own crimes. It is a cynical view of non-violent action in society (or any social movement for that matter) but it does reveal the weakness of an angry and mis-informed populace in a democracy. It also illustrates how governments and police often overuse that show of force and thus make situations worse by multiples of 10.

Fear of riots. Anger against perceived injustice. Loss of control. All the while a game is afoot to manipulate everyone involved to fight each other. Sounds eerily familiar.

https://www.gq.com/story/money-heist-netflix-profile
It’s not unusual. I personally think people intent on doing mayhem use events like social protests as cover. I think it happened in the OP case as well. Two of those got killed and one wounded. It does cloud the perspective as many people are not capable of separating the event and the true intentions of people acting in the periphery for their own interests.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse pre-trial

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sikacz wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:58 pm
Bisbee wrote: Sat Nov 13, 2021 11:31 am Who else is watching the Spanish TV series, ”Money Heist,” on Netflix?

They writing, plot, dialogue is fantastic. The robbers pretend to be social activists, actively provoke the government and police to over-react and send riot police and national guard into the streets. This in turn motivates impassioned citizens to take to the streets in protest to defend a cause they think they believe in. In essence the robbers use the people and their social discontent as cover for their own crimes. It is a cynical view of non-violent action in society (or any social movement for that matter) but it does reveal the weakness of an angry and mis-informed populace in a democracy. It also illustrates how governments and police often overuse that show of force and thus make situations worse by multiples of 10.

Fear of riots. Anger against perceived injustice. Loss of control. All the while a game is afoot to manipulate everyone involved to fight each other. Sounds eerily familiar.

https://www.gq.com/story/money-heist-netflix-profile
It’s not unusual. I personally think people intent on doing mayhem use events like social protests as cover. I think it happened in the OP case as well. Two of those got killed and one wounded. It does cloud the perspective as many people are not capable of separating the event and the true intentions of people acting in the periphery for their own interests.

Agreed, there were many people from outside Kenosha and outside Wisconsin on August 25th, 2020, some could have been perpetual protesters just following the latest event. Some were being led or misled by Facebook and Twitter postings, others by people yelling in the crowd. The media has obsessed with the Rittenhouse trial while the trial of Ahmaud Arbery's killers is getting less media attention. The Rittenhouse trial has controversy which the media loves, while the Arbery trial is more clear cut.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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The judge has dismissed Juror #7 in the Rittenhouse trial for making a "joke" that clearly demonstrated bias, that Jacob Blake was "only" shot 7 times because the cop ran out of bullets. Since the demonstration Rittenhouse came to was in protest over Blake's shooting, even THIS judge did the right thing.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

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YankeeTarheel wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 11:01 am The judge has dismissed Juror #7 in the Rittenhouse trial for making a "joke" that clearly demonstrated bias, that Jacob Blake was "only" shot 7 times because the cop ran out of bullets. Since the demonstration Rittenhouse came to was in protest over Blake's shooting, even THIS judge did the right thing.

I agree YT. I don't know if Schroeder was specifically assigned this case or he just got it by rotation, but he's overseen a lot of homicide trials. And I'd guess he's been overturned by higher courts a number of times and learned some lessons. IIRC he still has three alternate jurors, in case he has to replace any more.

You mentioned the defense's mistrial motion and I haven't read that Schroeder ruled on it. He could probably wait until the very end to rule, depending on WI law unless the defense withdraws the motion.

This will go to the jury sometime tomorrow afternoon and then it's just the verdicts.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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As one article pointed out no matter what the verdict the Right wing wins. Guilty, Rittenhouse becomes a martyr to the cause and is celebrated. Not Guilty, he becomes a blueprint on what you can do and get away with it without consequences.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.-Huxley
"We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." ~ Louis Brandeis,

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cooper wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:06 am
YankeeTarheel wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 8:37 am I don't know how you can go to an expected violent conflict, armed with a deadly weapon, threaten people with it, use it, and can STILL (successfully) claim "self-defense"
Yes.
The judge is possibly going to introduce a “provocation” instruction. It may nullify the self defense. I think, there’s a bit more vested emotion in this discussion than there should be. If one is allowed to interject the idea that he went looking for violence then one must look at the two killed and examine their past and motivations. They were also looking for violence and destruction. This is not a clean case, but should be looked at abstractly and in a very clinical manner. I suspect the judge is under pressure to find a reasonable way to convict.
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"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

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Agreed, sika. Messy as fuck and need to draw a line somewhere. My gut tells me the two shot were looking much harder for violence than the shooter. Otherwise, a whole lot more people would have been shot. The 30 rounds were used quite judiciously for a media-proclaimed blood thirsty shooter (i.e., most of 'em stayed in the magazine, the ones that left hit somebody physically assaulting him).

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse pre-trial

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We have to wait and see how the judge instructs the jury especially what alternate charges he allows the jury to consider under WI law. As the judge pointed out to Rittenhouse, the more charges the jury can consider the more likelihood they'll convict him of something. The judge will instruct them in the applicable laws and he'll give them verbal and written instructions based on his discussions with the prosecution and the defense. WI is not a stand your ground state like FL. Remember Kenosha County is purple, the DA is a Democrat who has held office for years, don't know the judge's party affiliate but he was appointed by a Democratic governor and is the longest serving circuit judge in the state.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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Remember Marissa Alexander? The mother who got 20 years for firing a warning shot at a wall behind her abusive husband when he verbally threatened her life and cornered her in her own house? If she could get jail time when nobody was killed by a shot then...

Oh yeah, Marissa is a black woman. Kyle is a white boy. This is America. Nevermind.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

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With the weapons charge thrown out, Rittenhouse may get a clean sweep. I sure the hell hope people don't riot. This case is a dumb ass case to protest over as every last person involved was in the wrong, and acting like complete idiots.
“I think there’s a right-wing conspiracy to promote the idea of a left-wing conspiracy”

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse pre-trial

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Bisbee wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:51 pm Remember Marissa Alexander? The mother who got 20 years for firing a warning shot at a wall behind her abusive husband when he verbally threatened her life and cornered her in her own house? If she could get jail time when nobody was killed by a shot then...

Oh yeah, Marissa is a black woman. Kyle is a white boy. This is America. Nevermind.
Bis,

I hear this often. Large picture, I totally understand and completely agree the system is fucked. What I don't understand is the part where some one white person is to shoulder all of that through a conviction. I find it hard to describe my point, but guess I find it weird that people think Rittenhouse should be found guilty just because a black person would be or that Rittenhouse should have been shot by police because a black person would have been. Institutionalized racism is horrible and needs to be fixed. That ain't gonna happen at this trial. Do we than say we should default the justice system to as applied to blacks? Or do we take this case for what it is and try to improve the justice system for black? It's my opinion that we shouldn't be clamouring for reducing the threshold to that which "serves" poor and minorities. Rather, we should be looking to raise that service to an equal level. And then there's the fucking rich that have never met a law they couldn't grease their way around.

I'm not saying your's is not a valid observation and I acknowledge it (and share it on the larger perspective). It's just this shit isn't going to be fixed even if the kid gets the chair. Emblematic vs specific, maybe? Sorry, I'm not articulating it well.

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You raise good points. And yes, our justice system is influenced by our racist culture, one scapegoat would not change that. I’m not a cynic and don’t want to appear to be saying that things are hopeless in this country. But it is just as true that those without political or economic power often do get the shaft while hapless fools like Rittenhouse (and Zimmerman) are often rallied behind due to racism in our country. And if that doesn’t make good people angry then there is an absence of humanity in the room. After all, fairness is a foundational human value shared across all cultures.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: Kyle Rittenhouse pre-trial

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Bisbee wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 7:33 pm You raise good points. And yes, our justice system is influenced by our racist culture, one scapegoat would not change that. I’m not a cynic and don’t want to appear to be saying that things are hopeless in this country. But it is just as true that those without political or economic power often do get the shaft while hapless fools like Rittenhouse (and Zimmerman) are often rallied behind due to racism in our country. And if that doesn’t make good people angry then there is an absence of humanity in the room. After all, fairness is a foundational human value shared across all cultures.
Well, I am angry that the right has raised this kid up as the messiah. It's fucking disgusting and I've said so several times. But I am also angry that the left (my side) has spun this so fucking hard that a substantial number of them think this "white supremacist active shooter" shot 3 black people. Yeah, people really are posting that around social media. All I'm saying is that we are supposed to judge discrete events, specifically court cases regarding self defense vs murder, as they are. Yes, it's couched in the larger social political event. But to pin all of that external baggage on the defendant is the very definition of witch hunting. Burn the witch shouldn’t sit well with any of us as it is really no different than racism, the artificial construct of the "other" for the specific purpose of persecution. If we are seeking equity, we must always seek equity always, not just when it aligns with our perception of the flow.

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