Re: CCW Class: Two Shots to The Chest, assess, Two More To H

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Stiff wrote: I have no intention whatsoever to name techniques. I truly hate shooting another person, I don't even kill spiders. However, if and when it becomes necessary to shoot, then I'll do my best to stop the armed agressor as quickly as possible. If he is worth shooting, he is worth shooting in the head.

If it comes to court, my lawyer would do the talking. As a matter of fact I have no plan to say anything to anyone without my lawyer present. I'll only take the stand if my lawyer thinks it's the best course of action, and he would certainly prep me for it.
Stiff, seriously, you do not understand trials. If you are called to the stand by the other party, YOU WILL SPEAK TO THE COURT (unless you want to add jail time for contempt to all the other issues).

Your attorney will not speak for you while you are on the stand. All he or she can do is object to a give question. If the judge sustains the objection, you're off the hook FOR THAT QUESTION PHRASED THAT WAY. The other side will take another run at you from another angle. If the judge overrules your lawyer's objection, you must respond.

Yes, a good lawyer will prep you if you're going to have to take the stand, but it doesn't always help.

So, the other side calls you. You don't intend to mention the Mozambique drill. But the other guy's lawyer is going to ask you about how you practice and how frequently. And he's going to go into detail, perhaps excruciating detail, and then ask, "Does this particular drill have a name? Have you ever called it the 'Mozambique drill?'"

If it's a big enough deal, Quiz may find himself on the stand in response to a subpoena duces tecum, being asked, "Who is this user, 'Stiff?' Is that person in the courtroom today? Is this an accurate transcript of a conversation on or about the 5th of December 2017 that 'Stiff' was involved in on a web site you manage?"

I'm serious, Man. That's how it goes down. If you don't believe me, run this by your attorney.
"There never was a union of church and state which did not bring serious evils to religion."
The Right Reverend John England, first Roman Catholic Bishop of Charleston SC, 1825.

Re: CCW Class: Two Shots to The Chest, assess, Two More To H

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SwampGrouch wrote:
Stiff wrote: I have no intention whatsoever to name techniques. I truly hate shooting another person, I don't even kill spiders. However, if and when it becomes necessary to shoot, then I'll do my best to stop the armed agressor as quickly as possible. If he is worth shooting, he is worth shooting in the head.

If it comes to court, my lawyer would do the talking. As a matter of fact I have no plan to say anything to anyone without my lawyer present. I'll only take the stand if my lawyer thinks it's the best course of action, and he would certainly prep me for it.
Stiff, seriously, you do not understand trials. If you are called to the stand by the other party, YOU WILL SPEAK TO THE COURT (unless you want to add jail time for contempt to all the other issues).

Your attorney will not speak for you while you are on the stand. All he or she can do is object to a give question. If the judge sustains the objection, you're off the hook FOR THAT QUESTION PHRASED THAT WAY. The other side will take another run at you from another angle. If the judge overrules your lawyer's objection, you must respond.

Yes, a good lawyer will prep you if you're going to have to take the stand, but it doesn't always help.

So, the other side calls you. You don't intend to mention the Mozambique drill. But the other guy's lawyer is going to ask you about how you practice and how frequently. And he's going to go into detail, perhaps excruciating detail, and then ask, "Does this particular drill have a name? Have you ever called it the 'Mozambique drill?'"

If it's a big enough deal, Quiz may find himself on the stand in response to a subpoena duces tecum, being asked, "Who is this user, 'Stiff?' Is that person in the courtroom today? Is this an accurate transcript of a conversation on or about the 5th of December 2017 that 'Stiff' was involved in on a web site you manage?"

I'm serious, Man. That's how it goes down. If you don't believe me, run this by your attorney.
Don't I have the option to not testify against myself? Fifth amendment and all?
Glad that federal government is boring again.

Re: CCW Class: Two Shots to The Chest, assess, Two More To H

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Stiff wrote:
SwampGrouch wrote:
Stiff wrote: I have no intention whatsoever to name techniques. I truly hate shooting another person, I don't even kill spiders. However, if and when it becomes necessary to shoot, then I'll do my best to stop the armed agressor as quickly as possible. If he is worth shooting, he is worth shooting in the head.

If it comes to court, my lawyer would do the talking. As a matter of fact I have no plan to say anything to anyone without my lawyer present. I'll only take the stand if my lawyer thinks it's the best course of action, and he would certainly prep me for it.
Stiff, seriously, you do not understand trials. If you are called to the stand by the other party, YOU WILL SPEAK TO THE COURT (unless you want to add jail time for contempt to all the other issues).

Your attorney will not speak for you while you are on the stand. All he or she can do is object to a give question. If the judge sustains the objection, you're off the hook FOR THAT QUESTION PHRASED THAT WAY. The other side will take another run at you from another angle. If the judge overrules your lawyer's objection, you must respond.

Yes, a good lawyer will prep you if you're going to have to take the stand, but it doesn't always help.

So, the other side calls you. You don't intend to mention the Mozambique drill. But the other guy's lawyer is going to ask you about how you practice and how frequently. And he's going to go into detail, perhaps excruciating detail, and then ask, "Does this particular drill have a name? Have you ever called it the 'Mozambique drill?'"

If it's a big enough deal, Quiz may find himself on the stand in response to a subpoena duces tecum, being asked, "Who is this user, 'Stiff?' Is that person in the courtroom today? Is this an accurate transcript of a conversation on or about the 5th of December 2017 that 'Stiff' was involved in on a web site you manage?"

I'm serious, Man. That's how it goes down. If you don't believe me, run this by your attorney.
Don't I have the option to not testify against myself? Fifth amendment and all?
Yes.
Image


"Person, woman, man, camera, TV."

Re: CCW Class: Two Shots to The Chest, assess, Two More To H

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senorgrand wrote:Sorry, yes to a criminal case, no to a civil case.
And in Indiana if I'm acquitted in a criminal case involving use of deadly force, the law protects me against any legal jeopardy.

"No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary."
Glad that federal government is boring again.

Re: CCW Class: Two Shots to The Chest, assess, Two More To H

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When it comes to any shooting, taking the fifth is always the first course of action. I could be shooting the big toe of a white hooded KKK breaking down my door, and I would still plea the fifth.

I am not a lawyer, but I know enough that the card is stacked against any regular joe schmo like me in criminal court. Keeping my mouth shut is the least I can do.

Glad that federal government is boring again.

Re: CCW Class: Two Shots to The Chest, assess, Two More To H

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Stiff wrote:When it comes to any shooting, taking the fifth is always the first course of action. I could be shooting the big toe of a white hooded KKK breaking down my door, and I would still plea the fifth.

I am not a lawyer, but I know enough that the card is stacked against any regular joe schmo like me in criminal court. Keeping my mouth shut is the least I can do.

This video can never be shared enough. This video can never be watched enough. Watch it, listen to it, think about it, take it to heart.

Re: CCW Class: Two Shots to The Chest, assess, Two More To H

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You assume I was speaking of criminal prosecution. Senorgrand has filled in relevant details quite capably in my absence.
Stiff wrote:
senorgrand wrote:You might still find yourself in trouble with a civil case. preponderance of evidence and all that.
Thankfully there's case law where Indiana Supreme Court specifically says if you're defending yourself lawfully, there can be no civil liability.
And you may find yourself involved in a trial about that very issue. I assure you, you are not as well protected as you want to imagine. You very well may prevail in the end, but I will guarantee you the home wrecking, relationship destroying, financially ruining, emotionally devastating hassle of your life for years, perhaps decades, while the issue works its way through the courts.

You may not even be the person in jeopardy, be it criminal or civil, but you may find yourself called as a witness for one side or the other. You might even be the prosecution's star witness with every cop in the state lobbying for you to get a medal. But if it suits the opposing party's strategy, they will try and rip you to pieces on cross examination. If your evidence is dangerous to their case, they will want to discredit you in front of the jury. One way to do that is to make the jury consider you an asshole. They know how to do it, and they're good at it.

And if the jury doesn't like the sound of "Mozambique drill,"...well, you get the idea.
"There never was a union of church and state which did not bring serious evils to religion."
The Right Reverend John England, first Roman Catholic Bishop of Charleston SC, 1825.

Re: CCW Class: Two Shots to The Chest, assess, Two More To H

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SwampGrouch mentions the financial costs of a shooting, I recommend everyone on this forum get homeowner's or renters insurance, and max out the Personal/Family Liability Protection. If that doesn't go up to $1,000,000, add a Personal Umbrella Policy. If you have a gun for self defense, defense of family and defense of abode, you will be sued if you ever have to use it. This kind of insurance may be the only thing between you and financial ruin, and if your insurer does agree to take on the liability, they also have to defend you to the best of their ability in a civil case, and the defense is a separate pot of money from the liability maximum. Ask your insurance agent what's included and excluded as far as personal liability.

Re: CCW Class: Two Shots to The Chest, assess, Two More To H

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SwampGrouch wrote:You assume I was speaking of criminal prosecution. Senorgrand has filled in relevant details quite capably in my absence.
Stiff wrote:
senorgrand wrote:You might still find yourself in trouble with a civil case. preponderance of evidence and all that.
Thankfully there's case law where Indiana Supreme Court specifically says if you're defending yourself lawfully, there can be no civil liability.
And you may find yourself involved in a trial about that very issue. I assure you, you are not as well protected as you want to imagine. You very well may prevail in the end, but I will guarantee you the home wrecking, relationship destroying, financially ruining, emotionally devastating hassle of your life for years, perhaps decades, while the issue works its way through the courts.

You may not even be the person in jeopardy, be it criminal or civil, but you may find yourself called as a witness for one side or the other. You might even be the prosecution's star witness with every cop in the state lobbying for you to get a medal. But if it suits the opposing party's strategy, they will try and rip you to pieces on cross examination. If your evidence is dangerous to their case, they will want to discredit you in front of the jury. One way to do that is to make the jury consider you an asshole. They know how to do it, and they're good at it.

And if the jury doesn't like the sound of "Mozambique drill,"...well, you get the idea.
I have read enough cases to know that even a 100% justifiable shooting, without a head shot, can still ruin your life. As a matter of fact I assume that I'll be spending some time in jail if I shoot anyone, regardless of circumstances. This means when I shoot someone, it is only because the only other alternative (death) is worse than jail. When I get to this point, I would have switched from fear of incarceration and financial ruin to fear of death. There isn't a nice way to say this, but when I shoot, I shoot to stop the perp in the shortest time possible, to give me the highest chance of walking away alive. Whether or not the jury likes the word "Mozambique" would be a very remote concern at that moment.

As much as I hate the cliché "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6", there is truth in it. It sounds jingoistic when said by a mouthbreather who is clearly looking for an excuse to shoot, but it feels more reasonable when spoken by a father with a school-age kid to take care of.

With a little luck I would spend my life not shooting anyone, and that would be perfect. I can simply shoot for the fun of it. However, if the unfortunate time comes, I must be crystal clear about my priorities. Staying outside a cell is no consolation if I'm staying inside a coffin.
Glad that federal government is boring again.

Re: CCW Class: Two Shots to The Chest, assess, Two More To H

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senorgrand wrote:You might still find yourself in trouble with a civil case. preponderance of evidence and all that.
It does depend on the State. In Missouri, for example, Self Defense will vacate a civil trial but the trial still happens. The defendant will not lose the case but may have to cover the legal fees that the suit brought even if just from their own atourney plus any missed work. Beat the rap but not the ride, so to speak.
In a bacon, egg and cheese sandwich the chicken and cow are involved while the pig is committed.

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