A better rifle made me a better shot

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Thinking about my own growth as a shooter over the years, and several discussions we have had here. I am a pretty good shot, generally speaking. I’m an adequate pistol shot by most standards. Given good light and good health and good-but-not-too-good coffee, I can shoot a rifle from the bench pretty much at the equipment’s capability.

How, you might ask, do I know when the error is me and not the rifle, or, perhaps the more common version: When I say it is the rifle and not me, am I making excuses or am I wrong or do I actually know? I contend that I’m at a point as a shooter that I actually know. How do I know? I’ve shot rifles good enough to show me how much was me.

I used to have a very accurate bench gun. It didn’t hold my interest in the long term, but it was the most important learning tool I have had. I was able to see on the target when I was and wasn’t on my game. I was able to spot the results of my breathing or the way I broke the trigger or how my eyes were doing that day (breathing and hydration are critical to precise vision).

When I first started shooting, I couldn’t tell you if I was a six inch shooter or if I was shooting a six inch rifle. I got better, but until I got to see what my body did to the groups of a rifle that would shoot inside a dime regardless of temperature or humidity or barrel cleanliness, I didn’t really know.

Do new shooters need quarter inch guns? Nope. Do new shooters need inch guns? You fucking bet they do. Guaranteed inch guns are available new for under $400. At that price, if you want to shoot well with your weird old crap, get a cheap one inch gun and the good ammo that the guarantee requires and check yourself out. I don’t mean you need to only shoot an accurate gun, but you need to have a known accurate gun in order to see what you’re doing.

I love weird old junk. I have an 1896 Krag that shoots a half minute with iron sights. I have other guns that should shoot better but don’t. I wouldn’t be able to evaluate those rifles if I didn’t know for sure what was the rifle and what was me.

Thoughts?
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Re: A better rifle made me a better shot

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my guns are, in general, much better shooters than i am. i'm usually content to put rounds in center of mass with iron sights at 100 yds with a rifle. i'm pretty sure my guns are capable of better, certain that some are. my m1917 is very good, maybe even worth putting a scope on. pistols the same, COM, iron sights, 15 yds. if i had regular access to a longer rifle range, i'd work on that. and my distance vision is starting to go, the target is fuzzy at 100 yds. i think i'm about as good as i'll ever get, and it's highly likely that i'm good enough, should it ever matter.
i'm retired. what's your excuse?

Re: A better rifle made me a better shot

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I couldn't agree with you more Marlene. If you don't know the two primary variables in the situation (the shooter and the gun), you'll never know what the hell is wrong (generally it's the shooter, not the gun, with some definite exceptions to the rule) if you're getting 4 or 6 or 12 inch groups. Besides, accurate guns are fun. Especially when you treat them right. Even the cheap ones. (I miss your 7mm-08).

And Lurker, I get that. I still have days where I struggle with Irons, particularly when I haven't been shooting as much like recently.
“Do the best you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better.”
- Maya Angelou

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Re: A better rifle made me a better shot

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It used to be you either had to get really lucky, or spend some money on custom gunsmithing to get a rifle to reliably shoot MOA. Now it can reasonably be expected from a $400 Ruger American or Savage Axis, off the rack, with decent ammo. As much as things like pre-64 WInchesters are things of beauty, if somebody was just getting started to day, I'd recommend they get a Ruger American or something like that and go to town with it.

Most of those new guns sure are a hat full of ugly though.

Re: A better rifle made me a better shot

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I'm not nearly the precision shooter you are Marlene, but I do have one not-very-expensive guaranteed-1-MOA rifle, a Weatherby Vanguard (action made by Howa).

I did buy the expensive ammo and push it to its limits, and I agree it was very instructive.

I had to shoot it off a Lead Sled to get its max accuracy, though. Which sorta proves your point. I could only max it out if I eliminated all human variables other than my trigger finger.

But that's good to know. I have a sense for how much precision I'm going to sacrifice by introducing more human variables. So, supported on sand bags on a bench, maybe 2MOA, kneeling with just the forend supported, maybe 4, offhand maybe 8. Or something like that.
"To initiate a war of aggression...is the supreme international crime" - Nuremberg prosecutor Robert Jackson, 1946

A better rifle made me a better shot

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Good question, Marlene. Most everything I have to offer is pretty obvious but I’ll say it anyway.

I only have rimfire rifles and I generally shoot at less than 100 meters or so. All my rifles are sub-0.5 MOA at 50 yards under calm conditions with a calm shooter and good ammo. My eyesight is not what it used to be so I generally use glass sights.

I enjoy optimizing these rifles so the most important thing is consistency and the variable that is most difficult to control is me, the shooter. Too much caffeine, fretting about finances, etc. all degrade my performance. If I am not shooting well, I usually stop and shoot a pistol or shotgun or just go home.

However, the other variables are more readily controlled. I am only talking about .22 LR and .17 HMR. I am not a very good pistol shooter.

Shoot quality ammo. If you are only shooting target, buy the good stuff and don’t kvetch if it costs 20 cents a round. Try to understand how dirty your rifle likes to be to shoot the best groups and what ammo the rifle likes best.

Investigate any variation of accuracy with the torque on action screws, barrel screws, etc. Use a torque wrench. Should your barrel be floated? Action bedded? Make sure the rifle is set up the same every time you shoot.

Practice shooting off a rest. If your rifle likes to be held tightly on the rest, do not muscle the rifle onto the target. The entrained stress generally gets released and screws up the shot. Practice your trigger control.

I have nothing against a 4 MOA rifle. I just won’t shoot it for groups. However, a really good, consistent rifle is great fun and, in my opinion, is necessary to improve one’s skills.
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Re: A better rifle made me a better shot

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I heartily agree with the premise of this thread. Mine is a $270 marlin XL-7 in .30-06. I'd like to re-iterate a related point I have made over the years. As well as the aforementioned MOA rifle, I think any rifle shooter looking to hone thier skills should also own an accurate air rifle - if you have space at home and laws that allow you to shoot locally. I am lucky enough to have a good laws and ten meters in my garage to shoot. While I haven't used my air rifles consistently for the last couple of years, when I first joined this club I was a daily shooter. Being able to shoot hundreds of shots at home every day even at just ten meters really upped my skills.
'Sorry stupid people but there are some definite disadvantages to being stupid."

-John Cleese

Re: A better rifle made me a better shot

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This thread has me thinking about my own rifle, a Mini-14. I took it out to the range last weekend and at 100 yards all the hits fell in a 7 inch circle. I was using a bipod, but the stock was hand held, so it wasn't quite steady. So what kind of accuracy is that? Would that be 3 1/2 MOA? Now I want to go back again this weekend and fully bench rest it to see how accurate i can get it. I know the Mini-14 doesn't have the greatest reputation for accuracy, though.
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Re: A better rifle made me a better shot

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Eris wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 1:04 pm This thread has me thinking about my own rifle, a Mini-14. I took it out to the range last weekend and at 100 yards all the hits fell in a 7 inch circle. I was using a bipod, but the stock was hand held, so it wasn't quite steady. So what kind of accuracy is that? Would that be 3 1/2 MOA? Now I want to go back again this weekend and fully bench rest it to see how accurate i can get it. I know the Mini-14 doesn't have the greatest reputation for accuracy, though.
Don't know how old your mini 14 is but that sounds typical from my experience back in the 90s. A friend had one and comparing it to my TC Contender pistol it was very lacking. My TC was exactly twice as accurate, both with iron sights, Ruger fired from the bench and TC from the creedmore prone.

Re: A better rifle made me a better shot

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I second the comment that the CZ .22s are one inch rifles out of the box with the qualification that the full stock (mannlicher) model is rumored to be a bit less accurate due to multiple contact points between the stock and barrel that mess with the barrel harmonics.

Some 10/22s perform this well out of the box. I think Sail’s does and others have reported similar results. I had one with a Ruger hammer forged bull barrel (like Sail’s) that came close. I never should have sold that barrel. As for the standard 10/22 carbine, it’s a bit of a crap shoot. They can be cleaned up pretty well though.


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Re: A better rifle made me a better shot

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Eris, I am not sure if there is an accepted standard definition of an MOA rifle other than the geometric one that one minute of angle is one sixtieth of a degree, thus the angle subtended by 1.047 inch at 300yards.

When I quote the MOA for my rifles, I mean the angle subtended by the center-to-center distance between the two holes in a five-shot group with the greatest separation. By that definition, your Mini would be better than 7 MOA. But, I may be way wrong in the way I use the term relative to others.

I could imagine other definitions that more accurately characterize the group such as the root mean square distance from the point of aim, etc. I think that some of the software packages for target analysis calculate other statistics.
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Re: A better rifle made me a better shot

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Bucolic wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:10 pm Eris, I am not sure if there is an accepted standard definition of an MOA rifle other than the geometric one that one minute of angle is one sixtieth of a degree, thus the angle subtended by 1.047 inch at 300yards.
You got the idea right, but made a math error, probably forgot to convert feet to yards. No difference between how we mean minute of angle here and anywhere else the measurement is used.

1MOA is 1.047 inch at 100 yards. A 7 inch group at 100 yards is a 7 MOA group. Most folks just round to an inch.

Max, I have no direct experience with the Savage, but I would expect a lot from it. Savage led this current step in to higher expectations of factory rifle accuracy. That said, the CZ rifles are a joy to own and shoot. An outstanding quality of product for the price.
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A better rifle made me a better shot

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Actually, it was a typo. I meant either 300 feet or 100 yards. A senior moment...

In re the <7 MOA comment, since his shots fell into a seven inch circle, my assumption was his ctc distance was less than seven inches. Uncharacteristically, I was not being pedantic and carrying the three figures to the right of the decimal point. :-)



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Re: A better rifle made me a better shot

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Bucolic wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:03 pm Actually, it was a typo. I meant either 300 feet or 100 yards. A senior moment...

In re the <7 MOA comment, since his shots fell into a seven inch circle, my assumption was his ctc distance was less than seven inches. Uncharacteristically, I was not being pedantic and carrying the three figures to the right of the decimal point. :-)
Her shots. :D

But yeah, 7 MOA seems really bad for a mini-14 from what I'm reading. Now I'm reading Ruger forums about accurizing.
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Re: A better rifle made me a better shot

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Eris wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:48 pm
Bucolic wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:03 pm Actually, it was a typo. I meant either 300 feet or 100 yards. A senior moment...

In re the <7 MOA comment, since his shots fell into a seven inch circle, my assumption was his ctc distance was less than seven inches. Uncharacteristically, I was not being pedantic and carrying the three figures to the right of the decimal point. :-)
Her shots. :D

But yeah, 7 MOA seems really bad for a mini-14 from what I'm reading. Now I'm reading Ruger forums about accurizing.
Just go to accuracy systems .com. They are the go-to folks for the mini-14.

Is your mini a pencil barrel 180 series or a 190 series tapered barrel? The newer minis need more work to get accurate because Ruger re-tooled the mini back in the 90's and fixed a number of accuracy problems in manufacturing. Out of the box, the newer minis are much better than the older ones. At least in terms of accuracy...

In any case, the main thing that keeps a mini from shooting straight is the bedding of the action, and at fore-end cap where the gas block interfaces with the stock. You want no movement either fore or aft. The quick way to fix this is to get a cheap polymer stock that fits the action tightly. This tightened up an old pencil barrel mini's groups by a whole handful of MOA over a loose fitting wood stock.

The main thing is love your mini for what it is...The official weapon of the A team, baby!
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Re: A better rifle made me a better shot

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drigeba wrote: Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:25 pm Just go to accuracy systems .com. They are the go-to folks for the mini-14.
Noted. Thanks!
Is your mini a pencil barrel 180 series or a 190 series tapered barrel? The newer minis need more work to get accurate because Ruger re-tooled the mini back in the 90's and fixed a number of accuracy problems in manufacturing. Out of the box, the newer minis are much better than the older ones. At least in terms of accuracy...
I've got one of the newer 520 series rifles.
In any case, the main thing that keeps a mini from shooting straight is the bedding of the action, and at fore-end cap where the gas block interfaces with the stock. You want no movement either fore or aft. The quick way to fix this is to get a cheap polymer stock that fits the action tightly. This tightened up an old pencil barrel mini's groups by a whole handful of MOA over a loose fitting wood stock.
I've heard talk of "bedding" but I have no idea what it means.
The main thing is love your mini for what it is...The official weapon of the A team, baby!
I love it when a plan comes together!
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