New mold for 9mm and .357

1
So, I'm working with Tom at Accurate Molds to help me design a mold I can use for 9mm and 357/38. I wanted something in the 125 grain range because load data is ample for both calibers in this weight. I also want to conserve lead for my revolver loads. Those bullets I cast drop at about 160 grains, and that really adds up. The sectional density of the standard 115 grain 9mm bullets is pretty low, and this will improve that. But there are some challenges here.

Obviously the revolver won't care about overall length so long as it chambers, but the 9mm will. The bullet shape of the design I'm proposing to him most closely resembles the truncated cone (TC), and typical load data for this generally specifies a 1.10 OAL. Using a TC bullet on hand that I sized to .3575, I found I was able to seat it out to an OAL of .144 and it still chambered OK, and it fits in the magazine as well. Thus, I figure a similarly shaped bullet, sized to .357 and seated to less than .144, should easily chamber and feed.

My internet 'research', always taken with a grain of salt, indicates chambers on Beretta 92s to be generous, being mass produced and all. I also have found accounts of reloaders using .357 and even .358 cast bullets in the 125 grain weight range. If I find that for some reason, that chambering becomes a problem, I can always size down to .356, but I doubt that will be necessary. I can also seat more deeply and drop the charge a bit.

My plan is for the mold to drop bullets as close to .359 as possible and to lube-size them to .358 for the revolver (or .359 if possible), and to .357 for the 9mm.
35-122P.png
35-122P.png (4.03 KiB) Viewed 3993 times
This is what I'm starting from. I'm going to eliminate most or all of the step-down, which should not be necessary for a production chamber, in favor of a third driving band. Then, separate that band from the middle band by a narrow, shallow crimp groove in case I want to roll crimp. I also propose that top driving band should be about 3/4 the height of the bottom band. Further, I'm asking that he increase the capacity of the lube groove by making it square, or squarer. I may also ask him to reduce the meplat from .18 to the minimum his tooling permits, which is .14.

I'm quite glad that his tooling does not allow for round nose bullets. I've never liked those because they don't self-align very well during the seating operation. The word that come to mind is 'cattywampus'.

One other thought...this is strictly a range gun, so I have no worries about potential reliability issues.
It's accuracy I'm after. I'm roughly modeling this after a 245 grain 44 bullet that he helped me design. Not bragging here, but that one turned out to be a real long-distance champ.

Any thoughts, comments or smart remarks?
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Re: New mold for 9mm and .357

3
eelj wrote:Interesting project, although from past posts I find it difficult to believe you will be running out of lead anytime soon. I've read and I repeat I've only read that most 9mm dies only expand the case mouth to around 356.
As if you can ever have too much lead. Hah!

The 'normal' expander might do that, but the good ol' Lee Universal will expand as much as you would ever need.
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Re: New mold for 9mm and .357

4
beaurrr wrote:
eelj wrote:Interesting project, although from past posts I find it difficult to believe you will be running out of lead anytime soon. I've read and I repeat I've only read that most 9mm dies only expand the case mouth to around 356.
As if you can ever have too much lead. Hah!

The 'normal' expander might do that, but the good ol' Lee Universal will expand as much as you would ever need.
I'm not talking about belling the case mouth I'm talking about the internal dimensions from the case mouth expander ball. One guy on castboolits did a project with a Ruger blackhawk because he had picked up over the years 10 gallons of 9mm brass and he needed to shoot bullets at least 358 to get it to group and suffered a lot of case mouth splits. But you claim that the Berreta is generous so you might not have a problem chambering. I'm looking forward to see how it all works out for you.

Re: New mold for 9mm and .357

5
eelj wrote:
beaurrr wrote:
eelj wrote:Interesting project, although from past posts I find it difficult to believe you will be running out of lead anytime soon. I've read and I repeat I've only read that most 9mm dies only expand the case mouth to around 356.
As if you can ever have too much lead. Hah!

The 'normal' expander might do that, but the good ol' Lee Universal will expand as much as you would ever need.
I'm not talking about belling the case mouth I'm talking about the internal dimensions from the case mouth expander ball. One guy on castboolits did a project with a Ruger blackhawk because he had picked up over the years 10 gallons of 9mm brass and he needed to shoot bullets at least 358 to get it to group and suffered a lot of case mouth splits. But you claim that the Berreta is generous so you might not have a problem chambering. I'm looking forward to see how it all works out for you.
I'll have to look around for that castboolits article. Thanks for the tip.

That is quite a bit of expansion at .358. That must be a convertible setup he was working with if he had to go that big. I should be ok as I'm aiming for sizing at .357, but I'm prepared to go .356 if I have problems with splits or chambering or whatever. I'm trying to anticipate. :)

Not trying to be stupid here, but I'm not sure I understood about the expander ball...I'm only sizing down the outside, then expanding only the mouth just enough to get the bullet started. My .356 commercial hardcast seated ok like that. And my experimental .3575 round did so as well. No shaving in either case. Now, splitting could be an issue. I don't much experience working with these little bitty 9mm cases. :wtf:
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Re: New mold for 9mm and .357

7
Simmer down wrote:On the surface it sounds like something's not right. What is the throat on the 9mm you'll use?
Not sure, but I can find out. What are you thinking?
Hell is where:
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Re: New mold for 9mm and .357

8
beaurrr wrote:
Simmer down wrote:On the surface it sounds like something's not right. What is the throat on the 9mm you'll use?
Not sure, but I can find out. What are you thinking?
9mm specs.jpg

A standard 9 is .355. With a soft lead you can go over a little since it will conform under pressure. Before that though it has to chamber. I wonder if your gun has room for brass that might be over-sized.
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Re: New mold for 9mm and .357

9
Well, I can say this; I was able to chamber an experimental round using a .3575 bullet. For the 9mm, I plan on sizing the bullets from my new mold to .357, or to .356 if there any any fitment problems. I've been spending time over at berettaform and there are a couple of handloaders there who claim to regularly load with .357 cast. A bullet sized to .356 is only 5 tenths bigger than the the specified max dimension. So, if my experimental .3575 round will chamber, shouldn't a round with a slightly smaller bullet of similar shape and OAL also chamber? No guarantees of course, but the evidence seems to say 'yes'. I've been discussing this with Tom at Accurate and I'll share I learn.

You and eelj raise some important issues and I'm grateful for that. Plus, I just like you guys. :)
Hell is where:
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Re: New mold for 9mm and .357

10
That there is one handsome bullet.

As the least experienced of y'all here, I'll just throw in some empirical observations loading 9mm.

Addressing concerns for Over All Length, I've been loading some 147gr commercial cast bullets and even that much lead backing into the leetle 9mm case has never pushed against the warmer 4.7gr Silhouette powder charge I settled on. And I also load those down to 1.11" OAL!

But I have actually been loading some true 124gr TC bullets to 1.11" OAL and they feed/run fine in my CZ. Your bullet design is not nearly so sharply angled as the Truncated Cone bullets I've been using (in fact rather closer to a Round Nose Flat Point) so there really should be no concerns about smooth feeding.

As for concerns that increased case diameter makes chambering more difficult in your pistol, if you've already loaded some test .3575 bullets into 9mm rounds that chambered OK in your Berretta, what else is there to worry about?

Watch, I'll be the one to suffer my over-confidence if your .357 bullets result in 9mm rounds that won't chamber in MY pistols...

Yes, I am eagerly anticipating your new casting toy to arrive. :w00t:
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Re: New mold for 9mm and .357

11
Bisbee wrote:That there is one handsome bullet.

As the least experienced of y'all here, I'll just throw in some empirical observations loading 9mm.

Addressing concerns for Over All Length, I've been loading some 147gr commercial cast bullets and even that much lead backing into the leetle 9mm case has never pushed against the warmer 4.7gr Silhouette powder charge I settled on. And I also load those down to 1.11" OAL!
Why is it a problem if the bullet is contacting the powder? I've never read anything about that being a problem. Indeed, some data call for compressed loads.
Bisbee wrote:But I have actually been loading some true 124gr TC bullets to 1.11" OAL and they feed/run fine in my CZ. Your bullet design is not nearly so sharply angled as the Truncated Cone bullets I've been using (in fact rather closer to a Round Nose Flat Point) so there really should be no concerns about smooth feeding.
Since the Beretta design uses reliable 'inline feed', I have largely ruled out feeding problems as a consideration in shaping the bullet profile.
Bisbee wrote:As for concerns that increased case diameter makes chambering more difficult in your pistol, if you've already loaded some test .3575 bullets into 9mm rounds that chambered OK in your Berretta, what else is there to worry about?
Yes, that was basically the same question I asked up thread. But my answer is 'I don't know'; that's why I'm posting here about this. Eelj and Simmer brought up some interesting concerns that bear further consideration.
Bisbee wrote:Watch, I'll be the one to suffer my over-confidence if your .357 bullets result in 9mm rounds that won't chamber in MY pistols...
And they may not. After all, I don't have your pistols around for me to test for fitment and feeding, I only have mine. If you want to bring them up, I can certainly check them.

Yes, I am eagerly anticipating your new casting toy to arrive. :w00t:[/quote]

Me, too. But the final details are still not settled. Still have more questions.
Hell is where:
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Re: New mold for 9mm and .357

12
Getting close. Here's the final rendition.
36-125P-D.png
I need only finalize the actual body diameter and tolerance window. I figure I should be aiming for as-cast bullets to be as close to .358 as possible, and it would be better to have them a smidge on the big size if necessary. If they drop at .358, I can lube-size at .358 for use in my L frame, and lube-size to .357 for the Beretta M9.

I wanted a square lube groove and minimum meplat, and also the minimal crimp groove in case I want crimp them for revolver use. I specified flat-based bullets in my other molds but went for a bevel-based one here, hoping for a slight accuracy edge, following the style of the VLD rifle bullets. But if there is any, I won't know anyway, so it was a frivolous choice, really.
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Re: New mold for 9mm and .357

16
Simmer down wrote:After such a mess with wide lube bands I'm totally sold on micro grooves that can be lubed inside a baggie. I looked at some of the bespoke molds but didn't see any micro grooves offered.

How will you lube those things?
I use an old SAECO lubrisizer (now made by Redding) that I bought off eBay 'cause I'm too cheep to buy a new one.
Tom at Accurate Mold will make anything you want for the same price as what's in his catalogue. I've seen some tumble lube designs. I'll look around after I eat my steak. :)
Hell is where:
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Re: New mold for 9mm and .357

19
Simmer down wrote:That looks like it. The sizers really mess up the tiny grooves if too much resizing is needed. I need to think about what gun I'd like to have a personal mold for.
Yup; I don't think sizers and microgrooves mix.

His molds are a thing of beauty. I've committed to buying only from him.
Hell is where:
The British are the chefs
The Swiss are the lovers
The French are the mechanics
The Italians make everything run on time
And the Germans are the police

Re: New mold for 9mm and .357

20
Simmer down wrote:After such a mess with wide lube bands I'm totally sold on micro grooves that can be lubed inside a baggie. I looked at some of the bespoke molds but didn't see any micro grooves offered.

How will you lube those things?
You can lube any design with tumble lube. I have N.O.E. and Accurate molds by Tom they are great molds, they are also more expensive but I think worth it. This is the lube that I use, http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/ very good but cheap enough that it doesn't pay to make your own. As far as lube sizers go do your research. Join or lurk on the castboolits site just avoid the "pit" over there.

Re: New mold for 9mm and .357

21
I cast some bullets with the new mold. My goal was to get the mold designed to drop bullets as close to .358 as possible. Optimal would be .3585. Well, these are dropping right at .3585 with a fairly tin-rich alloy, so that is fantastic. A little less tin and there will be a tiny bit of shrinkage, and that is just fine.

I sampled 5 for weight and all came in between 125.2 and 125.5 grains; right where I wanted them.
This is why I love working with Tom. I share my ideas and he tells me if they're stupid or if they're sound.... Then, after I commit, he renders a perfect finished product.

Anyway, the bullets are exactly what I was trying to achieve. The two on the left are lube-sized to .3575 for 9mm use, and the two on the right are un-sized (or "as-cast"). If the .3575 ones cause any problems with case or chamber fitment, I can always size down to .357, which should make them totally workable.
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