Unsafe 1911 Holster

1
http://itacdefense.com/ShowProductDetai ... goryID=332

I got a fantastic deal on a 1911. It came with the gun, this holster, and two other crappy holsters. I'll probably trade them off or something.

Anyway, the holster in question is very sturdy, made of good plastic, has an adjustable cant, and is pretty much what I was going to buy for IDPA anyway. Saved myself $50 on the bladetech holster I wanted. However, I have an issue in that this gun as the serpa style lock. I've heard all the horror stories, but they're all connected with Glocks.

The question is if I should keep the holster or sell it off. If I knew someone who was interested in it, I'd be more than willing to part with it. I would prefer to have a bladetech holster to match the Glock one I already have and replicate my draw, but I don't know if it is worth spending the extra money to not hit the release. I suppose I could disable the release, but then I'm worried that there won't be enough tension to hold the gun properly.
Eat your peppers.

Re: Unsafe 1911 Holster

2
If you lay your trigger finger along the side of the serpa holster, as you would index it while just holding the pistol at rest, fully extended, then you will not have any problems. If you do this now, you will see how easy it is to disengage the lock while drawing, and your trigger finger will be positioned precisely correctly as you clear the holster.

The "problems" with serpa holsters come from people simply not knowing how to use them. Example: If you curl your trigger finger and use the very tip of it to press the release, then as you draw it, well, your finger is in a firing position much more than a safe position, and you can clearly see where the "problem" comes from.

It really is that simple. Extend your finger fully, along the frame/slide as you would if the holster were not there, and you were not ready to fire. It's beyond natural, once you do it right. Everything just safely falls right into place.
Every one you've ever met or will ever meet, knows something you don't. -Neil DeGrasse Tyson

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Re: Unsafe 1911 Holster

3
I might go ahead and keep the holster. I just like the ease of my Glock in that I don't have to worry about a safety or any sort of release. I have to now release, draw, and flip the safety on the 1911. Just extra steps I'd rather not have, but I can get used to them for the sake of fiscal responsibility.
Eat your peppers.

Re: Unsafe 1911 Holster

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Incidentally, I'm sure someone will be along shortly with the utube of a guy shooting himself in the leg with a 1911 using a Serpa, but again, you have to use it right. He was switching around holsters, and apparently didn't know how to properly use the holster.

I'm curious, if you've tried what I described, what is your impression?
I
Full disclosure, this has become a heated topic here before, and I may or may not have been a bit of a dick about it to someone who was still a new member at that...
Last edited by AmirMortal on Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Every one you've ever met or will ever meet, knows something you don't. -Neil DeGrasse Tyson

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Black Lives Matter

Re: Unsafe 1911 Holster

5
I've jerked on the holster a few time and not fully depressed the release, but I'm also being mindful to not release the safety until the gun is drawn. I've just started using the Bladetech holster for USPSA and IDPA, and it is one of the best purchases I have ever made.
Eat your peppers.

Re: Unsafe 1911 Holster

6
only thing I have seen/heard about those holsters is that should something get stuck in the release mechanism, like a pebble or twig or crud or..., whatever pistol that is in there will not come out until one cuts the holster from around it. the retention system is pretty robust it would seem.
Subliterate Buffooery of the right...
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Re: Unsafe 1911 Holster

7
inmediasres wrote:I've jerked on the holster a few time and not fully depressed the release, but I'm also being mindful to not release the safety until the gun is drawn. I've just started using the Bladetech holster for USPSA and IDPA, and it is one of the best purchases I have ever made.
In the vid I mentioned, the guy disabled the safety before he drew, because he was not familiar with the holster...
Every one you've ever met or will ever meet, knows something you don't. -Neil DeGrasse Tyson

Anti-Gravity Activist

Black Lives Matter

Re: Unsafe 1911 Holster

9
ErikO wrote:Never flip off the safety on a 1911 before it is out of the holster. Otherwise you should be fine.
That's my thinking. I should be fine.

I'm thinking I'll stick with the holster. I'm thinking I'll spend a bit and buy another two mags, but especially need some new sights on this thing. Another mag and a mag holder are mandatory.

http://sevignyperformance.com/products- ... novak-cut/

I've been really happy with the Sevigny sights on my Glock so it will be nice to have similar sights on the 1911. The only other thing that bothers me is the slide release. It's pretty damn heavy, but might lighten up when the mag is full.
Eat your peppers.

Re: Unsafe 1911 Holster

10
Chip McCormick mags are the way to go unless you want to spend extra to get the same quality from Wilson.

That's the plan for the RIA Tactical that I've got on my 'will buy' list.
In a bacon, egg and cheese sandwich the chicken and cow are involved while the pig is committed.

Re: Unsafe 1911 Holster

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I looked at both of those and ended up going on the cheaper end of things. It's a Taurus 1911. If it were a higher end gun that was less forgiving about the mags, I'd spend the extra money. I almost did it, but the extra money is better spent on ammunition and new sights.
Eat your peppers.

Re: Unsafe 1911 Holster

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inmediasres wrote:I looked at both of those and ended up going on the cheaper end of things. It's a Taurus 1911. If it were a higher end gun that was less forgiving about the mags, I'd spend the extra money. I almost did it, but the extra money is better spent on ammunition and new sights.
True, I still keep my eye on GunBroker to see if someone is throwing away their CMcC's. So far, no dice. :lol:
In a bacon, egg and cheese sandwich the chicken and cow are involved while the pig is committed.

Re: Unsafe 1911 Holster

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SumGuyontheInternet wrote:If you lay your trigger finger along the side of the serpa holster, as you would index it while just holding the pistol at rest, fully extended, then you will not have any problems. If you do this now, you will see how easy it is to disengage the lock while drawing, and your trigger finger will be positioned precisely correctly as you clear the holster.
Exactly this. I love a serpa holster for just this reason.
"Time travel opportunity. Must bring your own weapons. Your safety is not guaranteed, I've only done this once before." - Posted in the lunch room

Re: Unsafe 1911 Holster

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Update:

The range has gone ahead and just banned SERPA style holsters. They cited a study that gives a reasonable reason as to why they're not the best choice.

Here is the memo that was put out last week by FLETC.
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY AND DECISION

As a result of four separate incidentsi related to auto-lock, trigger finger manipulation holsters [Blackhawk SERPA CQC Level II holsters (ii) (low wall)], the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC) requested that a study be conducted to identifY any common causative factors unique to this holster design. The study was assigned to Firearms Division (FAD) at FLETC-Glynco with assistance from the FLETC Field Training Directorate (FTD). A subsequent companion study of the Blackhawk SERPA CQC Level II Holster (high wall) was also conducted which resulted in similar findings.

The scope of both holster studies was devised to identify any safety related problems unique to the deactivation of the retention device while drawing and presenting the firearm. This testing included the following components:
a review ofthe current FAD curriculum;
review of FAD Standard Operating Procedures (SOPs);
an interview of the student involved in the FLETC-Glynco accident; a search to identify and verifY other outside incidents within the firearms training community;
and psycho-motor skills testing(iii) of the process of drawing a weapon from the auto-lock trigger finger manipulation holster.

The participants completed written feedback critiques at the conclusion oftheir session. Also, there was limited video recording of certain portions of the testing.

SUMMARY OF FINDINGS
The conclusions and results gathered from the analysis of holster testing and participant feedback was captured in separate reports at the completion of both the studies.

~ Duress is experienced by the shooter when draw-stroke steps are executed out of order. This sequencing error can then initiate a cascading series of failures (iv). This series of failures is first recognized by the shooter as an inability to draw the firearm from the holster.

• This inability is caused by:
o The tension caused by the upward pressure of the draw stroke occurring prior to the
deactivation of the retention mechanism.
o Unless deactivated prior to the draw action, this feature "locks" the pistol in the holster.
Once locked, the shooter experiences a greater amount of duress.
o The shooter then tends to use more force in an effort to remove the weapon from the
holster and tends to transition from digital-pad to digital-tip pressure which causes the
trigger finger to bend. Also, the associated increase in grip pressure causes all of the
fingers of the strong hand to flex, further increasing the flex or bend of the trigger finger.
o When the firearm is finally removed from the holster, this bend in the trigger finger
positions the finger proximal to the trigger or on the trigger.

~ The feedback from the majority of the FAD staff' that participated in the study indicates that a holster that requires multi-tasking of the trigger finger or that has a release mechanism closely proximal to the trigger is potentially problematic by increasing the risk of an inadvertent discharge. Subsequent review of the studies by the FLETC FTD SMEs also concluded that proximity of the finger to the trigger creates an inherent safety risk.

~ The proctors that administered the testing are all SMEs (vi) from the FLETC Basic and/or Advanced Firearm Training Programs and. The recommendation provided by these SMEs regarding the use of this style holster range from "hesitant to recommend the use of" to "should not be used in training. "

~ The frame by frame review ofthe video from the intern/CITP student portion of the psychomotor skills testing indicates that during approximately 25% ofthe draw strokes the shooter's trigger finger was proximal to the trigger and approximately 13% ofthe draw strokes began out of sequence (low wall study).

~ The interview with the CITP student involved in the training accident on December 13, 2011,
revealed that the curriculum and presentation of that curriculum was appropriate and complete.
The student indicated that he experienced a sequencing error and discharged his weapon.

~ An informal survey was conducted of commercial and private firearms training facilities. Several responses included; this style of holsters can be used but must have the release mechanism disabled, or cannot be used at a facility.

DECISION
Based upon the known facts, SME observations and both holster study findings, the FLETC submits the following training decision:

~ The FLETC is restricting the use of level II retention, auto lock-trigger finger release style holsters during all firearms training on FLETC firearms ranges. Holsters that possess a single retention release mechanism that is located proximal to the trigger area of the firearm are problematic and pose a safety hazard. Holsters that include additional release mechanisms (level III retention) should be evaluated for suitability prior to use on FLETC firearms ranges. This restriction will be classified as a "local range rule" which the FLETC has used in the past to improve safety practices during firearms training at all FLETC training sites.

Notes:
(i) The first incident, an Unintentional Discharge (UD), occurred on July 20, 2010, at FLETC-Glynco. This incident was the result
of the shooter's jacket becoming entangled in the holster during the process of re-holstering the pistol. The three most recent
incidents were apparent Negligent Discharges (ND) and occurred on October 27, 2011, at FLETC-Cheltenham, on December 13,
2011 , at FLETC-Glynco and on March 30, 2012, at FLETC-Cheltenham. All of these ND's resulted in self-inflicted injuries.

(ii) The Auto-Lock Trigger Finger Manipulation Holster has been available commercially since 2006. It is available for most
models of pistols and revolvers. This holster is available in both left and right hand models. As a retention holster, this design
protects and retains the firearm as designed. The holster is designed with an auto-lock system that securely holds and "locks" the
firearm in the holster when the firearm is inserted. There is no need to manipulate any portion of the holster to secure the
firearm. The release for the retention mechanism is located on the exterior of the holster on the outboard side, in the area of the
trigger/trigger guard ofthe firearm. To operate the release the shooter establishes his/her strong-hand grip, extending and
straightening the index finger (trigger finger). The shooter then applies digital-pad pressure with the trigger finger to the "release
button". This action deactivates the retention device allowing the shooter to draw and present the firearm.

(iii) This testing consisted of a series of draw stroke drills that commenced with 4 second facings and were reduced incrementally to
.75 seconds. These skills were conducted both strong-hand (two-hand) and support-hand (one-hand).

(iv) A cascading series offailures is best described as non-sequenced, repetitive actions that place the shooter in danger of
experiencing a Negligent Discharge.

(v) This group consisted of 49 FAD instructional staff members (FLETC staff and Partner Organization (PO) representatives) with
approximately 294 years of instructional experience.

(vi) These SMEs possess 120 years of active firearms training experience. They are the Lead Instructors with program oversight
for the following programs: CITP, UPTP, LMPT, RSITP, SSTP, LERTP and FITP.
Makes a ton of sense to me. I suppose one could argue that diligent practice would prevent such a situation from occurring, but why even chance it? So it looks like I'll be disabling my holster.
Eat your peppers.

Re: Unsafe 1911 Holster- works fine for me

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I have Bladetech 1911 someplace around here; could never adjust it so that it'd let go of my Colt M1911 A1 reliably.

For some reason, sometimes it just would keep hanging on and I'd have to struggle with it for several seconds, even with the tension screw almost falling out. Pulling straight up, forward, back, belt riding up, a real Barney Fife FUBAR.

My partner in (anti-)crime is really fond of the BT holsters and doesn't like the SERPAs. Seems like it's a version of the 9mm v 45 debates or similar.

I think I cannibalized the BT's Tech-Lok belt clip for a kydex Chris Reeve knife sheath I had made. At least something came of the purchase.
"il corporativismo è la pietra angolare dello Stato fascista" Translated, this means: "boom-shacka-lacka-lacka,-boom-boom-boom.

Re: Unsafe 1911 Holster

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I witnessed a Probation & Parole officer shoot herself in the leg while attempting to draw a Sig from a Serpa holster once.

I reccomend many many many hours of practice drawing the weapon while empty before even thinking about carrying with that thing.
Proud to be one of the NRA's worst nightmares: lesbian, pagan, educated liberal democrat-ish GUN OWNER.

Re: Unsafe 1911 Holster

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How was that done?

Since we never place our fingers on a trigger until the sights are on-target, and the trigger is not accesible until the piece is clearing the holster by about what, an inch or two, how did she manage that, and maybe more importantly, how would it have been impossible to do the same thing with a bladetech or similar?
"il corporativismo è la pietra angolare dello Stato fascista" Translated, this means: "boom-shacka-lacka-lacka,-boom-boom-boom.

Re: Unsafe 1911 Holster

21
I use a Serpa CQC on a paddle for IDPA. Love it, mostly because my trigger finger is exactly where it needs to be along the frame as I bring out and then present my pistol.

Like using any holster, it takes practicepracticepractice and then more of same to develop muscle memory to draw safely and effectively. When I first bought the Serpa, I wore it around the house, and would draw my unloaded/cleared pistol at random times. I also spent time drawing in front of a mirror, at first in slow-mo to make sure I had good form, then faster. After I got used to pulling my unloaded pistol from the Serpa, I took it to the range, and loaded a full magazine in (for the realistic weight), and practiced drawing on an empty chamber.

Now I spend probably 1/4 of my time on the range (more when I have an upcoming match) practicing draw followed by triple-tap to center-of-mass and double-tap to head at five and seven yards. I do this in slow-motion at first, focusing on proper tactical draw technique, and then slowly increase speed. And I find I spend less time in slow-mo each time because I'm developing the muscle memory to repeat the same motion over and over without thinking, not unlike the way I learned to keep my finger out of the trigger guard until the target is in my sights. I simply cannot pick up any gun now without laying my trigger finger alongside the frame without thinking. Likewise, I cannot leave my finger over the trigger if I pull my elbows down to my sides and come off target so I can take a moment to look downrange at where my last shot landed. I'm working on that same kind of muscle memory on my draw from the Serpa. But I have many more hours on the range to get to that point.

Bottom line is that no matter what holster you choose to use for IDPA (or carry), expect to spend many hours training the muscle memory it takes to draw safely and effectively. Same goes for proper and effective discharge of any handgun you buy. :beer2:
Last edited by KimberGal on Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Unsafe 1911 Holster

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DoctorB wrote:How was that done?

Since we never place our fingers on a trigger until the sights are on-target, and the trigger is not accesible until the piece is clearing the holster by about what, an inch or two, how did she manage that, and maybe more importantly, how would it have been impossible to do the same thing with a bladetech or similar?
Bad bad bad finger curl as she drew the weapon. They were being timed on the draw/2 rounds in the target.

I'm not sure about the Bladetech etc.
Proud to be one of the NRA's worst nightmares: lesbian, pagan, educated liberal democrat-ish GUN OWNER.

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