Long Range Shooter

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Marlene
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Re: Long Range Shooter

Post by Marlene »

If I was buying from scratch, I might pick the 6.5 over 308 in a similar rifle, but the difference definitely isn’t worth replacing an existing rifle.
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Re: Long Range Shooter

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Marlene wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:16 pm
If I was buying from scratch, I might pick the 6.5 over 308 in a similar rifle, but the difference definitely isn’t worth replacing an existing rifle.
Exactly the way I feel now after reading Ron Spomer's article ( https://ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/25-0 ... creedmoor/ ) because the Creedmor is so much like the .25-06, dang near a copy cat. Not many people even know the .25-06's history. It's not as heavy but can reach out faster. So now I can concentrate on a lever gun since I already have an awesome long rang shooter That can take out an Elk? Really? Never thought that until I read that article. I always thought it was just an antelope gun or maybe white tail. Could be a sniper rifle too.
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Re: Long Range Shooter

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The calibers are kinda confusing to me. The .25-06 is .257 but also 6.5mm and the 6.5 Creedmor is .264 but called the 6.5??? What am I missing?
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Re: Long Range Shooter

Post by offensivename »

The naming depends on whether or not the people who decided to name the cartridge measured the diameter of the barrel from land to land or groove to groove. 6.5mm cartridges like the 6.5 creedmoor are 6.5mm when measured from land to land, so the bullet is actually wider. The 25 caliber cartridges are .250 inches from land to land but .257 inches from groove to groove.

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Re: Long Range Shooter

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offensivename wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:49 pm
The naming depends on whether or not the people who decided to name the cartridge measured the diameter of the barrel from land to land or groove to groove. 6.5mm cartridges like the 6.5 creedmoor are 6.5mm when measured from land to land, so the bullet is actually wider. The 25 caliber cartridges are .250 inches from land to land but .257 inches from groove to groove.
That helps offensivename! Thanks!
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Re: Long Range Shooter

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Bullitt68 wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:40 pm
The calibers are kinda confusing to me. The .25-06 is .257 but also 6.5mm and the 6.5 Creedmor is .264 but called the 6.5??? What am I missing?
The more you dive into the wide world of cartridges, it gets even more confusing because sometimes it's not even named for the diameter of the bullet/the bore etc. I don't have a good example off the top my head right now, but they are out there.

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Re: Long Range Shooter

Post by lurker »

considering the garand almost used it, just out of curiosity, how does the pedersen .276 fit in here?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.276_Pedersen

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Re: Long Range Shooter

Post by Marlene »

276 pedersen is a bit milder. It's maybe the midpoint between 6.5 Creedmoor and 7.62x39. Very close ballistically to 7-30 Waters. Probably very close to 308 in terms of drop and drift over distance, but with less energy and a bunch less recoil. I'd love to have a Garand chambered as intended, but parent cases for forming Pedersen aren't readily available.
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Re: Long Range Shooter

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Just makes me wonder why the 6.5 creedmor when the .25-06 was already there for 100 years. Just a newbie round to sell guns. A tad lighter grain than the 6.5 and .308, tad more drift but the .25 shoots flatter and longer.
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Re: Long Range Shooter

Post by offensivename »

:tongue: 6.5 creedmoor shoots a higher BC bullet. Less drift and longer range. Also it fits in short action guns that an 06 derivative won't work in.

The real question is why make 25-06 when they could have just used 6.5x55 or 7mm Mauser. :tongue:

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Re: Long Range Shooter

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.because the 25-06 was in hand.
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Re: Long Range Shooter

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Bullitt68 wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:16 pm
Just makes me wonder why the 6.5 creedmor when the .25-06 was already there for 100 years. Just a newbie round to sell guns. A tad lighter grain than the 6.5 and .308, tad more drift but the .25 shoots flatter and longer.
well...if people don't know about it, they wouldn't know to consider it. .25 just hasn't even been that popular for some reason. and it is a fairly obscure cartridge outside gun geek circles.

If I didn't have either, and I was trying to decide one or the other...I would have to go 6.5 Creedmoor. Primary reason, short action vs long action. can work the bolt quicker with a short, less likely bop my self while working the bolt, and a little less weight. Remember, I am into practical/general purpose so weight of rifles are a concern for me. I would also want to check on barrel life vs the 6.5 and would compare available bullet selection. I haven't dug into it, so this is just a guess, but I suspect the 6.5 would come out ahead in those areas.

One of the reasons I still talk up the 308 isn't because I am ignorant of the 6.5's attributes, but rather there is more than just on paper ballistics that come into play when choosing a chambering. sometimes the superior on paper ballistics do not make up for other factors. possible short barrel life, poor or no selection of bullets, limited powder choices, perceived recoil, long action vs short etc, etc. could out weight the superior on paper ballistics. or they might not matter because I would never shoot the 6.5 at ranges the 25-06 would make the difference.

American shooters are a funny bunch. we don't take to change well as a group. it is hard to change from something that works. Even IF the change might be to something that works better. Reinforcement history runs deep with existing users of existing cartridges. Anyway...contrary to how things look now, the 6.5 creedmoor was on life support for quite a while. it wasn't an out of the gate commercial success. wouldn't know it now, but back in the beginning there was a lot of "answer in search of problem" type comments from the "experts" in regard to the 6.5. no matter what the competitors say in terms of how their community received it, they do not have the numbers to make a cartridge a commercial success, and so it floundered and had things not turned around might now be a niche cartridge vs a wildly successful commercial offering. It took a X factor, something that just can't be predicted for the 6.5 to take off outside of competition. One gun writer thinks it was the movie, American Sniper if I remember correctly. the 25-06 never got it's X factor so vast majority don't even know it's an option.

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Re: Long Range Shooter

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:roflmao:
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Re: Long Range Shooter

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Well lots of people love the 25-06 on the longrangehunting.com site.
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Re: Long Range Shooter

Post by offensivename »

There's nothing wrong with 25-06. The 25 caliber bullet just won't ever hit the same drag numbers as a 6.5mm caliber. Plenty of people shoot 22 caliber bullets at long range as well. Whatever floats your proverbial gunboat.

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Re: Long Range Shooter

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308Scout wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:25 am
Bullitt68 wrote:
Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:16 pm
Just makes me wonder why the 6.5 creedmor when the .25-06 was already there for 100 years. Just a newbie round to sell guns. A tad lighter grain than the 6.5 and .308, tad more drift but the .25 shoots flatter and longer.
well...if people don't know about it, they wouldn't know to consider it. .25 just hasn't even been that popular for some reason. and it is a fairly obscure cartridge outside gun geek circles.

If I didn't have either, and I was trying to decide one or the other...I would have to go 6.5 Creedmoor. Primary reason, short action vs long action. can work the bolt quicker with a short, less likely bop my self while working the bolt, and a little less weight. Remember, I am into practical/general purpose so weight of rifles are a concern for me. I would also want to check on barrel life vs the 6.5 and would compare available bullet selection. I haven't dug into it, so this is just a guess, but I suspect the 6.5 would come out ahead in those areas.

One of the reasons I still talk up the 308 isn't because I am ignorant of the 6.5's attributes, but rather there is more than just on paper ballistics that come into play when choosing a chambering. sometimes the superior on paper ballistics do not make up for other factors. possible short barrel life, poor or no selection of bullets, limited powder choices, perceived recoil, long action vs short etc, etc. could out weight the superior on paper ballistics. or they might not matter because I would never shoot the 6.5 at ranges the 25-06 would make the difference.

American shooters are a funny bunch. we don't take to change well as a group. it is hard to change from something that works. Even IF the change might be to something that works better. Reinforcement history runs deep with existing users of existing cartridges. Anyway...contrary to how things look now, the 6.5 creedmoor was on life support for quite a while. it wasn't an out of the gate commercial success. wouldn't know it now, but back in the beginning there was a lot of "answer in search of problem" type comments from the "experts" in regard to the 6.5. no matter what the competitors say in terms of how their community received it, they do not have the numbers to make a cartridge a commercial success, and so it floundered and had things not turned around might now be a niche cartridge vs a wildly successful commercial offering. It took a X factor, something that just can't be predicted for the 6.5 to take off outside of competition. One gun writer thinks it was the movie, American Sniper if I remember correctly. the 25-06 never got it's X factor so vast majority don't even know it's an option.
American Sniper? I just looked that up. Kyle used .300 Win Mag.

I heard about 6.5 Creedmoor from all the marketing articles proclaiming that USSOCOM is switching to that because 'Merica. I assumed that will make 7.62x51 and 308 cheaper in the short run.
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Re: Long Range Shooter

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K9s wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:09 pm

American Sniper? I just looked that up. Kyle used .300 Win Mag.

I heard about 6.5 Creedmoor from all the marketing articles proclaiming that USSOCOM is switching to that because 'Merica. I assumed that will make 7.62x51 and 308 cheaper in the short run.
Yep, I was aware that kyle used .300 win mag, and so did the gun writer. Mann is one of the sharper writers out there. But if memory serves the argument made was basically that the movie kicked off an interest in long range/precision shooting to a broader audience. These new people looked at what was being used and discovered the 6.5 creedmoor.

Can you image the level of popularity though had kyle been using a 6.5 creedmoor rather than a 300 win mag? my 2 cents on why the 300 mag didn't take off after the movie is the recoil and cost of using it as a competitive round.

I actually have to go with Mann on this one. Also, the marketing/publicity by PRS (and others like) as well as youtube content about precision shooting hasn't hurt either. just my 2 cents...but I think those two factors had more to do with creating the X factor that saved the 6.5 from being a nitche cartridge just hanging out in highpower land. No doubt USSOCOM's look at it didn't hurt, but I don't think it was the biggest push to commercial success.

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Re: Long Range Shooter

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Bullitt68 wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:58 am
Well lots of people love the 25-06 on the longrangehunting.com site.
that I might not choose it, or that it didn't achieve commercial success doesn't mean it isn't possibly a superior choice to cartridges that did achieve commercial success. Or that you are odd/stupid etc, etc for choosing it.

you have a rifle chambered in it. you indicate you like it. it gets the job done you need it to. that is all that matters.

As I keep trying to remind people...on paper ballistics is just one factor in choosing a cartridge. And may not even be the most important for a particularly individual given their interests and personality.

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Re: Long Range Shooter

Post by Bullitt68 »

In my latest research since I started this thread there seems to be renewed interest in the 25-06 by ammo manufacturers. Lots more than just a couple years ago. Just looking at available ammo on midway there's some hot rounds out there.
So whatever turns your crank, go for it.
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Re: Long Range Shooter

Post by Marlene »

This is the kind of astute research, dispassionate reading of the data, and learned understanding of the issues that leads to support of Libertarianism too. Just pick your answer and go looking for evidence to support it.
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Re: Long Range Shooter

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Can't we all just shoot along? :lol:

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Re: Long Range Shooter

Post by YankeeTarheel »

I've only shot a .308 once and it was a DPMS AR-10. I was surprised at the recoil, far less than I anticipated, and the accuracy was startling. From everything I've read, the .308 does everything the 30-06 does, but with better range and accuracy. I don't know if that's true.
The other advantage of .308 is, to my mind, you can have one versatile rifle, an AR-10, that you can use like an AR, but you can also hunt with. Also, there are many bolt-action and even lever-action rifles that shoot .308 so you don't have multiple ammos. Just having 3 types of ammo makes me crazy-- 9mm, .357 magnum, and .38 special--which means at a minimum 6 types--FMJ and JHP (for home defense).
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Re: Long Range Shooter

Post by Bullitt68 »

Marlene wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:30 am
This is the kind of astute research, dispassionate reading of the data, and learned understanding of the issues that leads to support of Libertarianism too. Just pick your answer and go looking for evidence to support it.
A lot of articles and posts just a few years old about the .25 mentioned the lack of variety of rnds and powders. Not so much anymore. Just like the long list of Dems running for POTUS but touting the same tax me more policies. :whistle:
I was gifted the 25-06 from my uncle who is a Vietnam Vet, he has a trunk of stuff his girlfriend told me. I have yet to take a peek.

Personally I can't see myself hunting with an AR platform unless its for hogs or vermin. I'm up to 7 different calibers and thats enough.
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Re: Long Range Shooter

Post by Marlene »

Definitely a clear understanding of both how rifles and economics work.
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Re: Long Range Shooter

Post by 308Scout »

YankeeTarheel wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:36 am
I've only shot a .308 once and it was a DPMS AR-10. I was surprised at the recoil, far less than I anticipated, and the accuracy was startling. From everything I've read, the .308 does everything the 30-06 does, but with better range and accuracy. I don't know if that's true.
The other advantage of .308 is, to my mind, you can have one versatile rifle, an AR-10, that you can use like an AR, but you can also hunt with. Also, there are many bolt-action and even lever-action rifles that shoot .308 so you don't have multiple ammos. Just having 3 types of ammo makes me crazy-- 9mm, .357 magnum, and .38 special--which means at a minimum 6 types--FMJ and JHP (for home defense).
On 308 recoil. While everyone is a bit different in terms of recoil, I personally I find the 308 very mild and comfortable to shoot. I have often wondered if a lot of the surprise at the recoil is from AR shooters used to a heavy rifle shooting 223/556, a combo with next to no recoil. Yes, there is a noticeable difference, but not that much...in my personal opinion. My 700 sps tac in a magpul stock is so comfortable to shoot I can spend a day at the range and expend 100 to 200 rounds and not feel like I got beat to hell and back.

30-06 vs 308.

while there are still valid reasons for choosing 30-06 (just because, I want, the challenge, curiosity), you are correct in that up to a 180 grain load there is nothing that the 30-06 can do that the 308 can't do just as well if not better. Cooper was in love with hunting Africa. Early writings he said he felt that 30-06 180 grain was just about as good as it got for non dangerous game. Later he promoted the 308 180 grain over the 30-06 as his scout rifle concept proved it's self. Both Cooper and Mann have organized African hunts where the 308 was the primary cartridge used and used very succesfully. Mann has also used 6.5 creedmoor over there fairly recently.

I have never really looked into greater than 180 so I don't know if the 308 is able to keep up with the 30-06 in those loading. I would have to go look at the data. Someone else may know.

I would have to go back and look at the data, but I am pretty sure the 30-06 still beats out the 308 passing 1000 yards. German Salazar had a series of blogs that documented how well the 30-06 can perform at and over 1000 yards. wish his blogs were still on the internet. it was interesting reading and challenged your thinking on these things.

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