Archery Summer Training with Group String Scoring

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Archery Summer Training with Group String Scoring
Rev. 1.2

Group String Scoring.
Preliminary Guidelines;

1. Shoot 5 arrows at the center of an appropriate target. (In archery talk this is called an “End”.)
2. Wrap a string around the arrow shafts at target entrance.
3. Measure the string and record the length rounding up to the nearest 1/8th inch.
4. Repeat step 1 for the next “End” or quit. Then take a picture of your target and bow then post your score in circumference inches rounded up to the 1/8 inch.

When the mood hits you again, repeat steps 1 through 4.

Distance: 10, 20, 30 Yards.
Bow type: Long Bow or Re-curve.
Traditional intuitive or with sights
Finger release only.

Join us. Give it a try. Post your progress.

Pointfocus (Gil) P.M.O.E. (Pursuing My Own Excellence.)
Last edited by Pointfocus on Sat May 17, 2014 9:39 am, edited 4 times in total.
I remarked, I was trying to keep relaxed, the Zen Master replied: 'That's just the trouble, you make an effort to think about it. Concentrate on your breathing, as if you had nothing else to do. (Quote modified to fit.)
Zen in the Art of Archery.

Re: Archery Summer Training with Group String Scoring

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Pointfocus
Date, 4/6/2014
5 Yds.
Traditional, No sights
Long Bow, 72 In.
Weight, 25 Lbs @ 30.5 in. draw.
Arrow, Easton 1716 Lite, Jazz
String Group, 12-1/8”

Warmed up with 5 shots then after the next I 5 shots, stopped and measured the group circumference.

Pointfocus (Gil) P.M.O.E.
I remarked, I was trying to keep relaxed, the Zen Master replied: 'That's just the trouble, you make an effort to think about it. Concentrate on your breathing, as if you had nothing else to do. (Quote modified to fit.)
Zen in the Art of Archery.
Attachments
100_0295.JPG

Re: Archery Summer Training with Group String Scoring

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Pointfocus
4/7/2014
20 Yds.
With Target Sight
Recurve Bow, 68 In.
Weight, 23 Lbs. @ 30.5” draw
Arrow, Easton 1816 Lite, Jazz
String Group, 16-1/2 In.

Nice sunny day with a variable light breeze from 9:00. Waited for the lulls then shot. This was my 3rd end. Target looked like a personal best (PB). It was. Stopped and recorded. I recently changed from a Damascus glove to a tab with the metal base attachment. My vertical arrow stringing lessened by at least half.

Pointfocus (Gil) P.M.O.E.
Last edited by Pointfocus on Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
I remarked, I was trying to keep relaxed, the Zen Master replied: 'That's just the trouble, you make an effort to think about it. Concentrate on your breathing, as if you had nothing else to do. (Quote modified to fit.)
Zen in the Art of Archery.
Attachments
100_0302.JPG

Re: Archery Summer Training with Group String Scoring

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CDFingers wrote:Neat. I'll do it, likely Thursday. I like this process with the string. It will be fun to do it at the different distances on different days.

CDFingers
Wow, that was fast. You must have this web site on speed dial.

It’s interesting when shooting this as your attention is focused on the bullseye and not on the previous arrows plus the bullseye.

One of the neat things about this approach is the group size is linear verses distance.
This means you can determine the overall winner no matter what distance the group was shot. A simple ratio problem, multiply the means times the extremes and solve algebraically.

Looking forward to your posting comments and target..

Pointfocus
I remarked, I was trying to keep relaxed, the Zen Master replied: 'That's just the trouble, you make an effort to think about it. Concentrate on your breathing, as if you had nothing else to do. (Quote modified to fit.)
Zen in the Art of Archery.

Re: Archery Summer Training with Group String Scoring

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Pointfocus
4/12/2014
20 Yds.
With Target Sight
Recurve Bow, 68 In.
Weight, <23 Lbs. @ 29-7/8 Inches draw./
Arrow, Easton, 1816 Lite, Jazz
String Group, 24 Inches

Another nice sunny day, 78 Deg. Wind, Variable 2 – 10 Knots.

Today, the plan was to find the problem of arrow vertical stringing.
Shot 4 different arrows without fletching at 10 yards. All arrows printed nock up at about 30 degrees. So, I adjusted the string nock point down several times until the arrows were printing straight in. Then I shot 5 arrows. The vertical stringing was gone.
The difference was 5/8 inch lower and the T gage read 0 inches or level. I then remembered that the popular published location for your nock point is ½ to 1 inch above the mid point. This is why I set the nocking point ½ inch high.

Why?

Because a wood recurve is built with the lower limb stiffer than the upper to offset 2 fingers under and one above the nock point. The bow makers call it tillering. But the limbs are balanced on my bow (i.e. the same). This is achieved by the limb locking screws on the riser. By adjusting these screws you typically can introduce tillering and also change the draw weight about 10%.

Since I’m a novice I use the “Tall Pole In The Tent” approach. Then work on the most obvious problem first.

Shot several 5 shot groups working on my form. The groups were getting larger as I got tired. Then I decided to reduce my draw length from 30 – ½ Inches to 29 – 7/8 inches. The first shot was high left. The next 3 shots tried to go in the same hole. Couldn’t believe it. Life is good!

Now, dear reader, you KNOW what happens next. Yep. Arrow went low and left. As soon as I released, I knew it was a bad shot and one of those teachable moments.

The 4 arrow group measured 5-1/2 Inches. The 3 arrows in the same hole (almost) measured 2 – 7/8 inches.

Let’s see what tomorrow brings.

Pointfocus (Gil) P.M.O.E.
I remarked, I was trying to keep relaxed, the Zen Master replied: 'That's just the trouble, you make an effort to think about it. Concentrate on your breathing, as if you had nothing else to do. (Quote modified to fit.)
Zen in the Art of Archery.
Attachments
100_0303.JPG

Re: Archery Summer Training with Group String Scoring

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This is five from ten yards, for a 5 7/8" group end-to-knot, as measured by the string below, repurposed from string once used to tie WWII 7.62X54r cartridges in bundles of 15:

Image


This is the 48# recurve I shoot with, draped over the shots. There was one flyer, the other four were touching, and no arrows were harmed in the process of this shoot. The possibility that I might hit another arrow was real, so I did not shoot my yellow ones, shown above. Here is the hapless Yuban can:

Image


Until it gets a few arrows anchoring it to the bag, the Yuban can tends to jump around some.

I'll shoot the other distances on other days. I did my regular 27 yard shoots before these. Up so close for the first shot was pretty scary. The string sang. That was cool.

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: Archery Summer Training with Group String Scoring

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CDFingers wrote:This is five from ten yards, for a 5 7/8" group end-to-knot, as measured by the string below, repurposed from string once used to tie WWII 7.62X54r cartridges in bundles of 15:

This is the 48# recurve I shoot with, draped over the shots. There was one flyer, the other four were touching, and no arrows were harmed in the process of this shoot. The possibility that I might hit another arrow was real, so I did not shoot my yellow ones, shown above. Here is the hapless Yuban can:

Until it gets a few arrows anchoring it to the bag, the Yuban can tends to jump around some.

I'll shoot the other distances on other days. I did my regular 27 yard shoots before these. Up so close for the first shot was pretty scary. The string sang. That was cool.

CDFingers
Nice group. Nice bow. The bow tiller is very noticeable. The lower limb is a lot straighter than the upper. Or it could be the camera angle.

The string pinch has got to hurt the fingers shooting that short 48# bow. How long is it? Do you shoot with one finger above and two under or three fingers under?

My next attempt will try 27 yards as soon as it stops snowing. A/C on Sunday and snow on Tuesday. Aughh....

I think I’ve figured out your secret. A Yuban Coffee container target. Could be some kind of mojo at work. The problem is I’ve never seen Yuban Coffee on the shelf in Ohio.

Pointfocus
P.M.O.E.
Gil
I remarked, I was trying to keep relaxed, the Zen Master replied: 'That's just the trouble, you make an effort to think about it. Concentrate on your breathing, as if you had nothing else to do. (Quote modified to fit.)
Zen in the Art of Archery.

Re: Archery Summer Training with Group String Scoring

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I think it's the camera angle. I checked the bow out face to face so to speak and it looks OK. The lens in this camera tends to distort unless everything is perfect. I think its optimum focus distance is about ten feet. Anything closer shows some distortions unless it's very close and it's set on Macro.

I shoot one finger above and two below.

Something interesting: I use a three finger glove. The tips have openings on the sides of the fingers, with the leather covering the finger pads. These little holes let the bottom side of both ring fingers touch the string--remember I shoot from both sides. So each ring finger has a little callous on the lower side there from the string.

In the 90's, I worked a bit on shooting without the three fingered glove. I'd shoot my arrows, then I'd take off the glove for the last shot. Worked up to three shots without the glove, then I'm all, "Dude. You're crushing the noives under the last bend in each finger. Stobbit!"

My reasoning was, "What if I had to shoot when I wasn't wearing the glove?" I kept at it until I began to reload for the .357. Then the glove went back on. And I shoot the .357 quite a bit now. I still shoot more arrows than bullets, though. Archery is much more difficult even than hand guns. Rifles are a breeze. And compared to shooting arrows, hand guns are nothing.

How long is it? Strung, it's 59 inches.

The Yuban can came to us holding a bunch of brown rice being returned by a neighbor--we grind whole beans. The plastic on the jug is really, really thick. Most of the jugs I use are orange juice or soda or what not, and they're pretty thin. A couple weeks of shooting just decimates them, turning them into shredded plastic. This Yuban jug, though, I think will last quite a while. There are still many places on it with no hits. What's neat is the areas I hit a lot are getting soft, and this allows me to pull the arrows out easily. But if I hit a non hit place, I have to struggle to pull the shaft out. Sometimes the tip gets hung up, as some are just a bit wider than the shaft. So I just screw the head off behind the jug, pull out the shaft, and put the head back on. Once this gets punctured all over, it will be a breeze. As luck would have it, one of the holes is about a millimeter below the rim, perfect to hang from a wire hook in the bag.

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: Archery Summer Training with Group String Scoring

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Pointfocus
4/19/2014
Distance, 15 Yds (45 feet).
Traditional, No Target Sight
Recurve Bow, 3 piece, Samick 66 Inch.
Draw Weight, 32 Lbs. @ 29-7/8 Inches draw length.
Arrow, Easton, 1816 Lite, Jazz
Finger tab, Black Widow.

Score (String Group Circumference), 31-1/2 Inches


I have switched back to traditional archery. At times I’m shooting more accurately with just a bare bow with no sights or any of the other gadgets. Most interesting is the realization that I’m building a library of what not to do. When I miss I’m happy because that’s another discovery of how not to shoot a bow.

Today I mixed rapid fire with slow shooting from 15 yards. All the while varying my technique and watching how the 5 shot group develops.

The main goal is to keep all arrows on the bag not in the wood. This led to the discovery that 5 yard increments works better than 10 yard increments. Then when arrows start to break the nocks off the previous ones it’s time to step back another 5 yards.

I’m now up to about 30 to 40 arrows a day with 32 Lbs. draw.
My goal is 5 arrows @ 30 yards and keeping all the arrows on the bag.

How are your arrows flying?

Pointfocus (Gil)

Coach: " It doesn't matter where you hit right now. Just try to group them together."

Student: "I know, but I feel a little stupid grouping them in the grass."
Author unknown
Last edited by Pointfocus on Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
I remarked, I was trying to keep relaxed, the Zen Master replied: 'That's just the trouble, you make an effort to think about it. Concentrate on your breathing, as if you had nothing else to do. (Quote modified to fit.)
Zen in the Art of Archery.
Attachments
100_0306.JPG

Re: Archery Summer Training with Group String Scoring

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CDFingers wrote:Actually, I was able to get in a ten minute shoot just to work the muscles. Eleven on each side near dusk on Sunday. Glad I did it, as Tuesday will be better for it.

CDFingers
I agree with your approach. I’m experiencing a change with recovery time by shooting every day. That third day soreness has diminished considerably. A daily workout pulling a loaded string is a wonderful thing.

Yesterday, I shot about 50 arrows with my older three piece recurve at 30 Lbs. draw. I’m still building my library of arrow errors.

I’m looking forward to viewing your next post.

Pointfocus.
I remarked, I was trying to keep relaxed, the Zen Master replied: 'That's just the trouble, you make an effort to think about it. Concentrate on your breathing, as if you had nothing else to do. (Quote modified to fit.)
Zen in the Art of Archery.

Re: Archery Summer Training with Group String Scoring

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Pointfocus
4/21/2014
Distance, 10 Yds (30 feet).
Traditional, No Target Sight
Recurve Bow, 3 piece, Samick 66 Inch.
Draw Weight, 30 Lbs. @ 29-7/8 Inches draw length. (measured)
Arrow, Easton, 1816 Lite, Jazz
Glove, Damascus.

Score (String Group Circumference) @ 10 yards, 13-1/2 Inches
Average Group Diameter, 4.3 inches

Projected Group circumference @ 20 Yds., 27 inches
Projected Group Diameter @ 20 Yds., 8.6 inches.

Warmed up with 3 ends (15 shots) then the 4th End all 5 arrows hit the 9 inch paper plate. PB.

Lessons learned for next time;

1. Warming up is essential!
2. Warm up at 10 yards until all arrows are on the 9 inch plate.
3. Then increase distance to 15 yards.
4. Repeat increasing distance in 5 yard steps each time.
4. Have fun building the arrow error library.

The right art is purposeless, aimless! The more obstinately you try to learn how to shoot the arrow for the sake of hitting the goal, the less you will succeed in the one and the further the other will recede.
~ D.T. Suzuki (1870 - 1966) Zen in the Art of Archery

How are your arrows flying?

Pointfocus
I remarked, I was trying to keep relaxed, the Zen Master replied: 'That's just the trouble, you make an effort to think about it. Concentrate on your breathing, as if you had nothing else to do. (Quote modified to fit.)
Zen in the Art of Archery.
Attachments
Shot traditional, 10 yards, 9 inch plate.
Shot traditional, 10 yards, 9 inch plate.
Samick 3 piece bow
Samick 3 piece bow

Re: Archery Summer Training with Group String Scoring

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Owing to some rather unique circumstances, I found myself engaged in all kinds of activities outside of archery since the last time I posted about it. Thus: this morning I found myself with time T before I must be at point P with persons A, P, and A after having explored the bottom of a home brew batch barrel.

I mean, why not shoot arrows, you know?

I decided why not see what happens at 20 yards? I figured at least I would not miss the fence. Hitting the fence is a drag with the recurve because I have to use pliers to get the arrows out. It is better from the pulling stand point but worse from the arrow standpoint with the compound, because the arrows go through and leave the fletching behind in the fence, and the shafts will be found embedded in the neighbor's fence across the alley way--this is not good for community relations. Missing the fence would mean arrows falling about the neighborhood--even worse for community relations.

I took way more time between shots than usual in an effort to coordinate both still-functioning brain cells. I shot one quiver full from each side, though with the compound, I did not shoot the yellow feathered arrows, replacing those shots with other carbon arrows.

The pics show all the arrows from the recurve quiver. However, the measurement is only the last five, the ones with red shafts and yellow feathers. These five measured 8 1/2 inches around. I'm putting up two pics so you can see how wild were the first few, the aluminum ones--some were "where TF did that one go?" Then you can see how I settled in with the other carbon arrows. Finally there are the yellow feathered ones. I measured at the bag rather than at the tightest area--but if you look you can see where the one wide to the left hit the carbon arrow below, sending the point off to the left. I heard the hit on the carbon that shows up as a little white dot on the other carbon shaft.

I'm quite surprised at the final result. At the beginning it was what one would expect, having quaffed a frew brews or too. Ferf. But I took more time and thought through each shot of the yellow arrows. Try it some time, but do it close...

Image

*
Image


CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: Archery Summer Training with Group String Scoring

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The last couple weeks have been tough on my archery training, as my time is requested in places other than at my back yard archery range.

I end up shooting ten arrows from each side just to keep the muscles alive. This takes about 25 minutes, including dragging the bag in and out of the garage. My groups have opened up a couple inches with the recurve. My groups with the compound have stayed about the same. To me, this shows that the recurve is the more challenging of the two types of bows I shoot.

I think I have five more weeks of demands on my time, when I can increase the number of arrows again.

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: Archery Summer Training with Group String Scoring

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Pointfocus
5/15/2014
Distance, 20 Yds (60 feet).
Target, 6" paper plate
Olympic style, 3 piece W/target site
Recurve Bow, 3 piece, Cartel 25” riser, 68 Inch length.
Draw Weight, 25 Lbs. @ 29-7/8 Inches draw length. (measured)
Arrow, Easton, 1816 Lite, Jazz
Finger release, Glove, Damascus.

Score SGC (String Group Circumference), 9-3/4 Inches

Warmed up with 2 ends (10 shots) then the 3rd End all 5 arrows landed inside the 9 inch paper plate. PB.

Lessons applied;

1. Lots of practice each day. 15 to 35 arrows/day.
2. Changed my string release from jaw anchor to hand touching shoulder to a dead anchor on jaw bone with the thumb/index web locked on jaw bone.
3. This session this evening was a personal best. 30 yards is just around the corner.
4. Results after fine tuning the arrow clicker.

Lessons learned for next time;

1. Warming up is essential!
2. Warm up at a distance where you can barely keep all arrows on the bag.
3. Long feathers hide bad form. Small vanes (almost a bare shaft) exposes bad form and release mistakes.
4. Vertical arrow stringing may be due to my ring finger getting pinched, hurting and tired as I shoot each of the five arrows. Notice the angle of the top arrow pair with the nock angled higher and the bottom pair going straight in. The middle arrow is slightly nock up. The angle pattern is not random to the arrow position. This is a clue and my next "tall pole in the tent" to research.

The horizontal grouping is fairly good.

So, grab your bow and have fun building your subconscious Arrow Error library.


My month absence was due to computer problems. I couldn’t post on the Liberal Gun Club web site. Now it’s ok.

But I still practiced and had fun.

Fundamentally the marksman aims at himself.
~ D.T. Suzuki (1870 - 1966) Zen in the Art of Archery

How are your arrows flying?
Join us and pursue your own excellence.
Pointfocus (Gil)
I remarked, I was trying to keep relaxed, the Zen Master replied: 'That's just the trouble, you make an effort to think about it. Concentrate on your breathing, as if you had nothing else to do. (Quote modified to fit.)
Zen in the Art of Archery.
Attachments
100_0327.JPG
100_0325.JPG

Re: Archery Summer Training with Group String Scoring

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So, grab your bow and have fun building your subconscious Arrow Error library.
Until I read this, I did not realize I'd been doing that in my head all along. When I heft an arrow from my motley crew, I have to change my point of aim for it. I have three brands of carbon arrows and two brands of aluminum arrows. I think a secret dream I have that I've not yet acknowledged is that I'd like a dozen matched arrows.

I'm glad you're up to so many arrows per day and so many days per week. Very nice. I think I can shoot on Sunday.

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: Archery Summer Training with Group String Scoring

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Good afternoon CDF.

Thank you for your encouragement and kind words.

I think you are really exercising your Subconscious Arrow Error Library with correction offset data.
With that said, it’s a scary thought of what would happen if you had a matched set.

If you have time Sunday, would you mind shooting 5 arrows at a small target marker on your bag at 20 or 30 Yds.
Then string measure the circumference and post the target and equipment description?

This is before you get that matched set of arrows. Then we can compare the two.

How are your arrows flying?

Pointfocus (Gil)
I remarked, I was trying to keep relaxed, the Zen Master replied: 'That's just the trouble, you make an effort to think about it. Concentrate on your breathing, as if you had nothing else to do. (Quote modified to fit.)
Zen in the Art of Archery.

Re: Archery Summer Training with Group String Scoring

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This is with my 48# recurve bow that comes in at 59 inches strung. These are the first five arrows from 27 yards. I warmed up by doing the dishes. Ah: my time is challenged lately. These had a circumference of 17 3/4 inches. Ak. I have to be patient until I can go back to shooting more arrows more times per week. Lovely morning at around 70 degrees. There were only a few hung over students lying about town after Graduation this past weekend. So that was cool. The town will get really quiet in the next few days. I love this time of year, though I make my living from students, it's nice to have them go home from time to time. ;-)

Image


Here is what happened with the remainder of the quiver. The yellow arrows were the last five. I suppose I would have scored better had I warmed up. But in "the real world" there may not be time to warm up. The way I see it, they're all within one minute of bad guy at 27 yards, just under the distance between the bases on a baseball diamond. I figure I'd use the bow and arrow to fight my way to my revolver, which I'd then use to fight my way to my rifle--that's if I'm ever attacked while playing baseball.

Image


My mind is the weakest link in this archery thing. If my mind is thinking on other things, I lose concentration. So there's my challenge: Learn to pay attention.

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: Archery Summer Training with Group String Scoring

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CDFingers wrote: My mind is the weakest link in this archery thing. If my mind is thinking on other things, I lose concentration. So there's my challenge: Learn to pay attention.

CDFingers
Excellent. Thanks for the data.

I also been fighting with my mind. At times you get lucky when you don't pay attention. Then you can't help yourself and try to repeat it again. Augghhh...... .

Pointfocus.
I remarked, I was trying to keep relaxed, the Zen Master replied: 'That's just the trouble, you make an effort to think about it. Concentrate on your breathing, as if you had nothing else to do. (Quote modified to fit.)
Zen in the Art of Archery.

Re: Archery Summer Training with Group String Scoring

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Possible answer to vertical arrow stringing problem as illustrated in the photo posted above on 5/17/2014.

I tried a lot of different ideas, anything that was associated with my grip. Slept on it then I remembered setting the tiller to 0 when it was new (both limbs are the same distance from the string). The three piece bow has an adjustment bolt that that can be turned to balance the limbs so they are set to an equal distance from the string. So, since I’m pulling the string with three fingers, the index finger above the arrow nock and two fingers below, I’m changing the force balance to the arrow by adding more force to the lower limb. So with great thought applied, which way to adjust the lower limb bolt I decided that looser is best. After all two fingers below, it’s like shortening the string. Right? Now, dear reader, you just know what’s coming next.

Loosened the bolt one turn and shot a group of five. The vertical stringing was almost twice as bad! Also the string pinched my ring finger more.

So, I adjusted the bolt back to the original setting then turned it one half turn tighter, adding, I think, more power to the lower limb.

It worked. Also their was less pinch of my ring finger and the group size shrank.

Notice the picture below that all the arrows are almost parallel to each other and the top and bottom arrows are almost straight into the bag. The nock end of the two outside arrows are only 50% further apart than the front. It may require a little more adjustment on the limb bolt. The group circumference measured 8-1/2 inches at 20 yards verses the previous target at 9-3/4 inches. And my fingers aligned a lot better to the string with very little discomfort. It felt that all three fingers were equally sharing the load. So I left the adjustment bolt at ½ turn tighter and cinched the locking screw against it and stopped playing with adjustments for now. Life is good!


The right art is purposeless, aimless! The more obstinately you try to learn how to shoot the arrow for the sake of hitting the goal, the less you will succeed in the one and the further the other will recede.
~ D.T. Suzuki (1870 - 1966) Zen in the Art of Archery

Join us and learn archery group shooting, purposeless, aimless.

How are your arrows flying?

Pointfocus
I remarked, I was trying to keep relaxed, the Zen Master replied: 'That's just the trouble, you make an effort to think about it. Concentrate on your breathing, as if you had nothing else to do. (Quote modified to fit.)
Zen in the Art of Archery.
Attachments
100_0329.JPG

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