In defense of “trophy hunting”

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Re: In defense of “trophy hunting”

Post by lurker »

Bullitt68 wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:23 pm
............
look! that nasty grass-eating giraffe killed that poor helpless blonde girl!

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Re: In defense of “trophy hunting”

Post by kronkmusic »

As an avid fisherman, I would argue that – outside of pure subsistence fishing – if you've ever fished in your life, you've trophy hunted. Nobody goes fishing to catch the smallest bass in the pond, or the smallest mahi off the coast, whether you eat it or not. And even if you throw it back, you still committed an act of violence against that animal, injuring it and possibly effecting it's ability to eat/catch prey, for your own pleasure. That photograph of you holding that bass/mahi/wahoo/whatever is very much a trophy in nearly any definition of the word.

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Re: In defense of “trophy hunting”

Post by Marlene »

I’d argue that it’s possible to reduce the violence inflicted unnecessarily in the world by hunting for meat rather than buying it at the supermarket.
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Re: In defense of “trophy hunting”

Post by BungalowBill »

Marlene wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:33 pm
I’d argue that it’s possible to reduce the violence inflicted unnecessarily in the world by hunting for meat rather than buying it at the supermarket.
... and you get organic, free-range, grass-fed meat with no antibiotics etc. when you hunt instead of something that was raised in miserable conditions and scared shitless, literally, when it was finally slaughtered.

I’d say about 90% of the discussion on here has missed the point of my original post, which was that “trophy hunting” is pretty much a straw man for non-hunters to rail against. Hunters want trophies and meat.

Put one more way, saying it’s OK to hunt if you need to eat the animal but it isn’t OK to hunt because you enjoy hunting sounds an awful lot to me like saying it’s OK to have sex as long as you’re conceiving a baby, but it isn’t OK to have sex because you enjoy sex.

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Re: In defense of “trophy hunting”

Post by Bullitt68 »

Marlene wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 4:33 pm
I’d argue that it’s possible to reduce the violence inflicted unnecessarily in the world by hunting for meat rather than buying it at the supermarket.
Animals are still being killed or slaughtered rather, for your meat at the market. It's just a domesticated animal friendly critter rather than a wild and free one. Whats the fun of shooting a steer in a pen?
I think if your going to trophy hunt animals you should have to use a bow rather than a high powered weapon. Especially dangerous animals like bear or lions. Give them some better odds and know you could die doing it. I don't approve of trophy hunting but understand hunting as I used to hunt,. And yes usually your looking for a nice sized buck or what ever. A nice rack to hang on your wall. But I always hunted for meat. Now that I don't anymore, however did enjoy the primordial instinct of hunting. I can go buy darn near any meat at the deli.
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Re: In defense of “trophy hunting”

Post by Bang »

danhue wrote:
Wed May 01, 2019 6:25 am
My problem with trophy hunting is philosophical, in that it is a perversion of the natural predator/prey relationship. Predation should help natural selection by going after the weak, but most trophy hunters seem to go after the stronger, faster, more beautiful preys, and I don't think that's right.
Cats also kill for fun, not always to eat.

There are no rules about why someone hunts. We're neurologically much more complex than any other animal on the planet from everything I've read. Our domain for behavior isn't limited by instinct and momentary need, and we don't need to artificially add such restrictions to ourselves.

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Re: In defense of “trophy hunting”

Post by BungalowBill »

SailDesign wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:42 pm
Shoot it to eat it, or leave it alone.
Sail a boat for transportation only, but not for the fun of sailing. See how that works?

BTW I sail a Freedom 21 cat-rigged boat. For fun, not transportation.

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Re: In defense of “trophy hunting”

Post by kronkmusic »


BungalowBill wrote:
SailDesign wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:42 pm
Shoot it to eat it, or leave it alone.
Sail a boat for transportation only, but not for the fun of sailing. See how that works?

BTW I sail a Freedom 21 cat-rigged boat. For fun, not transportation.
Nice! I've done a bunch of sailing around the Bahamas on my buddy's Catalina. Sailing is a uniquely satisfying activity for me, almost as fun as surfing and shooting things.

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Re: In defense of “trophy hunting”

Post by lurker »

it's been a long time. i think the bahagvad gita has something to say about this.
Last edited by lurker on Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: In defense of “trophy hunting”

Post by SailDesign »

BungalowBill wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:43 pm
SailDesign wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:42 pm
Shoot it to eat it, or leave it alone.
Sail a boat for transportation only, but not for the fun of sailing. See how that works?

BTW I sail a Freedom 21 cat-rigged boat. For fun, not transportation.
You're completely missing the fact that sailing harms nothing, on a macro scale. But obviously since you kill for fun, that wouldn't bother you anyway. Apples and oranges, dood.
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Re: In defense of “trophy hunting”

Post by lurker »

march 21, march 27. 28 posts, 28 posts. interesting. tag team?

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Re: In defense of “trophy hunting”

Post by CHWolff »

SailDesign wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:11 pm
BungalowBill wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:43 pm
SailDesign wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:42 pm
Shoot it to eat it, or leave it alone.
Sail a boat for transportation only, but not for the fun of sailing. See how that works?

BTW I sail a Freedom 21 cat-rigged boat. For fun, not transportation.
You're completely missing the fact that sailing harms nothing, on a macro scale. But obviously since you kill for fun, that wouldn't bother you anyway. Apples and oranges, dood.
Trophy hunting harms nothing on a macro scale. Probably helps overall although I am skeptical of those 100k hunting licenses always being used properly in countries with some sketchy politics. The whole point of it though is selectivity and precision. It's a micro-interaction with high failure rates compared to meat hunting which itself has high failure rates. This debate mirrors exactly the debate over firearms.

fuck it though. That's the nature of the beast. Shout out to the OP for starting this thread. I've learned something from the responses both for and against so that's made it worthwhile in my book.

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Re: In defense of “trophy hunting”

Post by SailDesign »

CHWolff wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:02 am
SailDesign wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:11 pm
BungalowBill wrote:
Sat Jun 29, 2019 8:43 pm
SailDesign wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:42 pm
Shoot it to eat it, or leave it alone.
Sail a boat for transportation only, but not for the fun of sailing. See how that works?

BTW I sail a Freedom 21 cat-rigged boat. For fun, not transportation.
You're completely missing the fact that sailing harms nothing, on a macro scale. But obviously since you kill for fun, that wouldn't bother you anyway. Apples and oranges, dood.
Trophy hunting harms nothing on a macro scale. Probably helps overall although I am skeptical of those 100k hunting licenses always being used properly in countries with some sketchy politics. The whole point of it though is selectivity and precision. It's a micro-interaction with high failure rates compared to meat hunting which itself has high failure rates. This debate mirrors exactly the debate over firearms.

fuck it though. That's the nature of the beast. Shout out to the OP for starting this thread. I've learned something from the responses both for and against so that's made it worthwhile in my book.
Emphasis added....

Seriously? The animals you shoot are "nothing" therefore harming them doesn't matter?

Or maybe you do not hunt at all, and are telling us you're defending something you've never done.

Either way, fuck you for that answer.
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Re: In defense of “trophy hunting”

Post by CDFingers »

We see here one of the things about firearms that helps cause the rift. It makes people afraid--it's a rational fear in some ways. Here we have a machine, and we can pull the trigger with like four pounds of force or what not, and drop a one thousand pound elk at 300 meters. He never saw it coming. Some guy comes up and cuts off the head and straps it to his pack, abandoning the body. His friend takes a pic for facespace. "What a great hunt!" "What fun!"

How is that scary? Charles Whitman. Google him.

Perhaps y'all now know why early in this thread I put that Calvin and Hobbes strip up of the deer hunting the guy in his office.

I get it that humans are omnivores. I understand killing to eat--though I totally know it is 100% unnecessary for adults to eat meat. I accept that others have not yet grokked this.

I believe that "killing for fun" is one thing that puts off non-gun owners and slants them away from actually-sensible gun laws. Instead they want to deny to Charles Whitman the tools he would need to do his dirty deed. You're not a cat. You're not an orca. You're a human. You have verbal communication skills, and you (most of you) have rational thought processes, and you can decide whether to kill for fun. Those who decide to kill for fun remind me of Mark Twain observing that humans are the only species who blushes--or needs to.

When I was in my early teens I killed two animals. One, a gopher with a hunting knife, and the other a bird with a BB gun. It only took me two times to realize I'd done the wrong thing. Quite soon after that I stopped eating animals. Why did I decide that when others did not? Hard to say. I can only observe the phenomenon. From time to time I'll even blush, knowing I'm a member of the human race.

Still, for me shooting stuff remains fun. I choose to use my rational mind to pick non living targets to shoot. This does not mean I will not shoot a bad guy (almost always a guy) bent on doing harm. I have muscle memory big time. I know that part of the natural world I belong to includes self defense. You'll see that aspect of nature if you go up and try to choke a wolverine. Self defense is not killing for fun.

There is a time to kill and a time to live. Learn when those times are, and choose between them wisely.

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Re: In defense of “trophy hunting”

Post by eelj »

Everytime someone wrecks their sailboat in waters that make it impossible to salvage it introduces an enormous amount of lead to the marine ecosystem. Fortunately sailing and trophy hunting is mostly the hobbies of the very affluent.

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Re: In defense of “trophy hunting”

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eelj wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:58 am
Everytime someone wrecks their sailboat in waters that make it impossible to salvage it introduces an enormous amount of lead to the marine ecosystem. Fortunately sailing and trophy hunting is mostly the hobbies of the very affluent.
Srsly?
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Re: In defense of “trophy hunting”

Post by max129 »

eelj said:

Fortunately sailing and trophy hunting is mostly the hobbies of the very affluent.
Actually, some trophy hunting in the Western States is rather middle class. You can get a big horn package for about $3,000. Not my thing, but they are there.

You can buy a used Hobie 16 for less than $10,000 and small boat sailing is a "thing" all along the East Coast for regular folk.

Sure, owning a true Yacht is only for the affluent, and going on an African Safari is also out of reach for normal people, but both trophy hunting and sailing are very popular with everyone from the lower middle class upward.
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Re: In defense of “trophy hunting”

Post by eelj »

max129 wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:13 pm
eelj said:

Fortunately sailing and trophy hunting is mostly the hobbies of the very affluent.
Actually, some trophy hunting in the Western States is rather middle class. You can get a big horn package for about $3,000. Not my thing, but they are there.

You can buy a used Hobie 16 for less than $10,000 and small boat sailing is a "thing" all along the East Coast for regular folk.

Sure, owning a true Yacht is only for the affluent, and going on an African Safari is also out of reach for normal people, but both trophy hunting and sailing are very popular with everyone from the lower middle class upward.
I have lived both along side of and very close to Lake Superior my whole life. My experience with sail boats comes from both observing them and friends that own them. It's an expensive hobby and most of them contain anywhere from 1000-4000 lbs of lead in the keel. I don't have a problem with people taking on either hobby which are expensive enough that other pursuits could suffer, like family vacations, thats their business. I have a problem with a few non hunting trolls interfering with a thread that people who hunt could use to discuss the merits of just one aspect of their hobby.

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Re: In defense of “trophy hunting”

Post by SailDesign »

eelj wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:33 pm
max129 wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:13 pm
eelj said:

Fortunately sailing and trophy hunting is mostly the hobbies of the very affluent.
Actually, some trophy hunting in the Western States is rather middle class. You can get a big horn package for about $3,000. Not my thing, but they are there.

You can buy a used Hobie 16 for less than $10,000 and small boat sailing is a "thing" all along the East Coast for regular folk.

Sure, owning a true Yacht is only for the affluent, and going on an African Safari is also out of reach for normal people, but both trophy hunting and sailing are very popular with everyone from the lower middle class upward.
I have lived both along side of and very close to Lake Superior my whole life. My experience with sail boats comes from both observing them and friends that own them. It's an expensive hobby and most of them contain anywhere from 1000-4000 lbs of lead in the keel. I don't have a problem with people taking on either hobby which are expensive enough that other pursuits could suffer, like family vacations, thats their business. I have a problem with a few non hunting trolls interfering with a thread that people who hunt could use to discuss the merits of just one aspect of their hobby.
Hmmm... Well, here's a bunch of sailors starting a race - not an ounce of lead in any of those boats, and each one costs in the region of $6,400. Not that much of an "expensive hobby" compared to guns. Those particular boats are strict one-design so you cannot spend $$$ to upgrade them better. Keeps the playing fields even. They don't kill anything in use.

As for "discussing the merits of one aspect of their hobby", I think you'll find that the OP was trying to defend that aspect against those who disagreed. You don't "defend" against friends...

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Re: In defense of “trophy hunting”

Post by lurker »

i sailed a lot in my teens. fun, quiet, peaceful until an afternoon storm blew up. the other kids in my 'hood had cars and dirt bikes. i had a sunfish-eqivalent. friend and i built a kayak out of wood strips, canvas and latex paint. good times. in retrospect, i think i had the most fun when building something. almost meditative.

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Re: In defense of “trophy hunting”

Post by bajajoaquin »

A good thread, although I admit I'm coming to it a bit late. I'd have been here earlier, but I just joined, you see....

A couple things that caught my eye wer the idea of hunting with a knife or otherwise giving a 50/50 chance, and the idea buying meat as outsourcing the killing and humans not eating meat. Some thoughts derived from these:

1. Anyone here ever have a snake as a pet? I have. They eat rodents. You can put them in fully mobile, and some snakes will only eat them that way. However, That mouse (or rat) can hurt your snake, so if you can, you stun the prey so the snake can eat it with minimal danger. You're getting pleasure from owning the pet. You are deliberately stacking the odds in its favor so that you can keep it living to derive more pleasure from it. What would you say if someone said he was keeping a snake to watch it compete for food and he enjoyed the battle to the death every week?

2. Anyone here have dogs or cats that are kept for the pleasure of pet ownership? I have. If you're feeding meat-based food to that animal, you're killing other animals for pleasure. It's been watered down through many layers, but at the root, you're killing for fun.

3. Do you eat meat? I do. You don't need to. It's convenient. It's delicious. It's a sign of wealth. It is, however, not necessary. You are killing for the pleasure of eating, not for necessity.

These are all arguments taken to an over-simplified logical extreme. I don't hunt (having once been hunting for dove, which I happily ate), and pure trophy hunting makes me uncomfortable. But I also recognize that there's a range of ethical steps in all this. Hunting small game or otherwise purely for the pot. Eating the 10-point buck you posed next to. Catch and release fishing.

Maybe you can put eating meat and trophy hunting as book-ends on that continuum.

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Re: In defense of “trophy hunting”

Post by max129 »

3. Do you eat meat? I do. You don't need to. It's convenient. It's delicious. It's a sign of wealth. It is, however, not necessary. You are killing for the pleasure of eating, not for necessity.
You're right - eating meat is not a necessity.

However, from my direct experience with seriously injured people, pure vegetarians are at a disadvantage after heavy blood loss, broken bones or other major trauma.

There have been hundreds of studies on this and in India, they have "collagen broths" for vegetarians that have suffered severe trauma.
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Re: In defense of “trophy hunting”

Post by bajajoaquin »

yes, it’s not an argument without fault. None are. But I think it helps illustrate the pitfalls of absolute morality positions.

Your personal experience aside, I’d be wary of studies done on Indian populations. Hygiene and nutrition standards are highly variable and would likely have strong effects on the statistical outcome. There’s likely a high correlation between populations they don’t eat meat and populations that are extremely poor or otherwise have non-nutritional drives to be meatless.

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Re: In defense of “trophy hunting”

Post by DavidMS »

I am in favor of trophy hunting as long as the fees are high enough to support well run conservation programs.

Adam Conover does a good job of explaining it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQh-f1rBjx4

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Re: In defense of “trophy hunting”

Post by YankeeTarheel »

Sorry, but when I think of trophy hunting this is the first image is all that comes to mind. :

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