I have a question about gun ownership

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neverthoughtiwould
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I have a question about gun ownership

#1 Post by neverthoughtiwould » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:31 am

Hello
As my handle implies, I never thought I would consider buying a gun but I am now due to the increasingly troubling rhetoric I hear from the right wing. I want to be able to defend myself if someday some far right crazy militia tries to kill me in my home or what not. Not interested in being like the people who were rounded up in Nazi Germany. So I want to buy a gun potentially but I have a dilemma: I do NOT want to buy a gun from any manufacturer and/or vendor that supports the NRA or other rightwing power groups. So can anyone point me to a manufacturer or information about where i could find a gun manufacturer that meets this criteria? Does such a thing even exist? Any information would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance for any info you might be able to provide.

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Re: I have a question about gun ownership

#2 Post by lurker » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:22 am

liberals and moderates have deluded themselves over the last couple of decades into thinking that the USA is a civilized nation, that americans are all decent human beings and that it is safe to go about our lives unarmed. current events are changing that perception.

consider milsurp. whatever money went to the military-industrial-complex did so a long time ago, possibly in another country. designs are all tried and true.
and oh, yeah, :welcome:
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Re: I have a question about gun ownership

#3 Post by YankeeTarheel » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:31 am

Hello! That is precisely why I became a gun owner. It seems most companies support the NRA, but several are far worse in their open pandering to Trump fanatics. For others, it's more the cost of doing business. Some of the foreign-based companies, like H-K, Walther, and Beretta, seem to be far less inclined to the far Right rhetoric (If I'm wrong, someone here will point it out). Sig-Sauer only seems to obliquely pander to it. Nothing wrong with used guns, which includes military surplus.

It also matters what state you're in. NY, NJ, CA, CT all make gun ownership, especially hand-gun ownership, a tedious process. Other states seem to only care if you're money's green and if you pass the N.I.C.S. check.
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Re: I have a question about gun ownership

#4 Post by featureless » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:02 am

Howdy!

You could also consider building an AR15. You won't avoid the NRA entirely, but you could source parts mostly from small manufacturers rather than the big ones. Or, buy used so the "dues" have been paid by someone else.

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Re: I have a question about gun ownership

#5 Post by K9s » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:53 am

What state do you live in? That makes a big difference. Also, do you want a handgun or rifle?

Milsurp sounds like the way to go, but milsurp may not be the best firearm for your intended use. Your purchase of one weapon is not going to make or break the NRA. They probably get most of their money from Russia, anyway. :)
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Re: I have a question about gun ownership

#6 Post by dougb » Thu Jul 18, 2019 9:57 am

Guns do not have political affiliations. Users do. Buy one you like and feel comfortable using. Then practice.
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Re: I have a question about gun ownership

#7 Post by senorgrand » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:29 am

It's almost impossible to escape the NRA if you are going to be a gun owner. You can do things to minimize their influence. Buying used guns is one way.

But for a new gun owner, you're gonna want to take a class (or more) so you can shoot safely. That class will probably have some NRA component. After that, you'll want to go to a range that rents guns so you can find something that works for you. They will probably be affiliated with the NRA.

Once you can shoot safely and have your first gun, then look for ways to ween yourself from the NRA.

In the interim, I would recommend a program of karma balancing. Donate some money to a liberal cause (Planned Parenthood, ACLU, etc.) for the minimal amount you might accidently send to the NRA.

BTW, tell us where you are and one of our members might be able to take you shooting sometime!
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Re: I have a question about gun ownership

#8 Post by K9s » Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:38 am

Many members here were anti-gun until Charlottesville, Charleston/Emanual AME, and a number of Synagogues & Mosques saw violence.
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Re: I have a question about gun ownership

#9 Post by lurker » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:22 am

not saying classes are a bad thing. many of us here have never taken a class. probably most of us. there are 4 (or is it 5? i forget) rules mostly about awareness, which if remembered and followed will keep you and those around you safe.

if you have a friend who's ahead of you on the gun learning curve, go to the range with them. most of us like to go and are pretty easy to persuade. "will shoot for ammo".
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Re: I have a question about gun ownership

#10 Post by neverthoughtiwould » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:41 am

Thank you all for the prompt replies and good information. I am in Portland Oregon. I definitely want to take some classes and get some training. I would be looking for a gun that is good for self defense and is easy to use. It sounds like it is not possible to buy a gun that doesn't help the NRA unless its used. Sounds like an opportunity for some entrepreneur. Thanks for all your advice. And yeah, I never considered being a gun owner until I saw all the frothy right wing demagoguery that is spinning around. And since im not planning on leaving anytime soon, I might as well not make it easy for someone to try to make a victim out of me. Thanks again.

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Re: I have a question about gun ownership

#11 Post by featureless » Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:49 am

neverthoughtiwould wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:41 am
Thank you all for the prompt replies and good information. I am in Portland Oregon. I definitely want to take some classes and get some training. I would be looking for a gun that is good for self defense and is easy to use. It sounds like it is not possible to buy a gun that doesn't help the NRA unless its used. Sounds like an opportunity for some entrepreneur. Thanks for all your advice. And yeah, I never considered being a gun owner until I saw all the frothy right wing demagoguery that is spinning around. And since im not planning on leaving anytime soon, I might as well not make it easy for someone to try to make a victim out of me. Thanks again.
There are several members that are in the Portland area, so you can anticipate sound local advice. They'll be along shortly to ease your transition to the dark side!

(Just know you're not alone in your reasoning)

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Re: I have a question about gun ownership

#12 Post by featureless » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:05 pm

Richard is listed as your local LGC instructor. You can ping him from this link: https://theliberalgunclub.com/training/ ... directory/

huckleberryfun (handle) is the Oregon LGC chapter president. You can PM him through the board. You'll be granted permission to the Oregon local forum shortly--all kinds of info there.

I believe the Oregon chapter has an active facebook page, but I don't know what it is (facebook challenged).

You are at a distinct advantage to have these resources. I had to learn myself 20 years ago as I couldn't stomach the conservative baggage that goes along with most shooters around here and being a liberal gun owner is like coming out of the closet. I have taken a class through the LGC and it was most definitely worth the time and very modest cost.

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Re: I have a question about gun ownership

#13 Post by Eris » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:08 pm

Welcome!

Like others have said, avoiding entanglements with the NRA, even indirectly, is hard to do. I suggest, though, that you think of the NRA as two distinct things. First, of course, it's a political group that supports politicians and does lobbying. This is the part of the NRA that people don't like because they tend to support the most extreme right wing positions. The second part of the NRA is the education and competition part. They provide training and support shooting sports. This is the part of the NRA that has been given short shrift over the years, but there's nothing fundamentally wrong with it.

I am not, and will not be, an NRA member, al least not until Wayne LaPierre is gone and they make major reforms, but I am OK with the NRAs education programs. I've taken a couple of NRA classes, and have several of their books on my shelf. I am very happy with these because they pretty much stay away from politics and just focus on the skills and attitudes needed for safe gun ownership. So if you take my advice, you'll be willing to deal with the NRA education side, at least.

Now, more directly related to your question, I don't know of any US gun makers that are not in bed with the NRA. Perhaps a foreign made gun would serve you better in this regard. And used is a good option too, of course.

But really, before you make decision like that, you should get some familiarity with guns. That's where I tie back in to what I started with. Find an introduction to guns course that you can take. It will probably be taught by an NRA certified instructor. That doesn't mean that the NRA gets your money for it, though. It just means that the instructor got certified by the NRA education and training programs. Take a class that loans you a gun, if you can, and then also go to a range that rents guns so you can try out a few and see how you like them. Once you have had a chance to shoot a few different guns you may find yourself thinking differently about what you want.

As for the type of gun, I would recommend starting with a rifle of some sort. They are easier to shoot accurately, and they make better guns for the kind of total catastrophe that seems to be your main usage scenario. They can also be easier to obtain depending on your states laws.

When I first got into shooting I bought a Ruger Mini-14. It's a rifle that shoots the same cartridges as the AR-15, so the ammo is cheap and plentiful. It also has a reputation for being extremely reliable and rugged, which is a good thing to have in a SHTF gun, in my opinion. I have never regretted getting this gun.

Another option, if you want to be all historic about it, if to officially join the LGC so you qualify to buy an M1 Garand from the Civilian Marksmanship Program. I have one that I bought last year and although I bought it specifically as a collectors item (it's a WWII era rifle) I've come to think of it as a decent SHTF gun as well. It shoots the .30-06 cartridge, which these days is mostly used for hunting. It's more powerful than the .223 used by the AR-15. The gun is large and heavy, but unless you are going to be running around in the woods carrying it a lot, I don't consider that to be an issue. It's a tried and true design, and unlike the AR-15 it really is a "military weapon of war" having been used in WWII and the Korean War by the US, and other places by other countries. Despite this, it is normally classified as an antique that you can own even when other semi-auto rifles are banned. It's even legal in Canada! It's 8 round magazine puts it under the "high capacity" limits in some places, but it's easy to reload, so I don't consider that a limitation either. Quite frankly, if someone broke into my home I'd probably grab the M1 before the Mini-14.
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Re: I have a question about gun ownership

#14 Post by senorgrand » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:35 pm

You are very fortunate...our Oregon chapter is one of our most vibrant and they can help a lot.

Agreed on rifle. I would probably recommend a 10/22 to learn on and a Ruger 9mm rifle for self defense. Very similar handling characteristics. And both can be taken down so you take them to the range discretely (which is a plus in Portland)

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Re: I have a question about gun ownership

#15 Post by nigel » Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:47 pm

I get the impression that a military surplus battle rifle was not what you were thinking about when you asked this question. And I'm not sure it's the best option for personal defense. As for keeping a degree of separation between your purchase and the NRA, my advice would be to just buy a used gun. Any gun store will have a selection of used models.
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Re: I have a question about gun ownership

#16 Post by max129 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:01 pm

neverthoughtiwould, welcome to the forum!

May I suggest that if your three main requirements are:

1) Personal defense
2) Ready when you need it - not much training
3) Avoid supporting the NRA

Then the best approach would be to find a good quality used revolver - something like a Ruger GP100 in .357 / .38 special - or of course a Smith and Wesson.

They are rugged, easy to operate and very reliable. You can get some training and then practice as seldom as once a year.

Sure, it only holds 6 rounds, but most defensive shooting situations seem to be resolved in 3 shots or less. And speed loaders are easy to operate with a tiny bit of practice.

Here is an example:
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/814662576

Your Local Gun Store (LGS) may have one also.

You can buy online and have it shipped to a local FFL (usually your LGS).
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Re: I have a question about gun ownership

#17 Post by featureless » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:14 pm

One more thing on firearm selection and then I'll shut up. Rifles are far easier to learn than handguns--they are easier to aim and recoil is less of a problem because it's going into your shoulder rather than wrists). If you have close neighbors like a lot of city dwellers, there is a concern with over penetration (the bullet either missing or passing through your target, then the wall, then the neighbor--obviously bad). Believe it or not, the .223/5.56 (the bullet the much maligned "high powered death ray" AR-15 and generally accepted Mini-14 both shoot) is one of the least likely to do that because the bullet itself is so light it tends to not go as far after striking something solid. It's counter intuitive, but that's what real research rather than internet lore shows. All of this shit can be overwhelming. There are a lot of educated folk here willing and able to help.

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Re: I have a question about gun ownership

#18 Post by lurker » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:17 pm

might also consider pistol caliber carbines. check your local gun&pawn. i've found some real gems at pawn shops.
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Re: I have a question about gun ownership

#19 Post by bigbass4me » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:19 pm

Welcome from a blue dot veteran the gun you choose should be more about reliability and ease of use and affordability to buy and practice with I did a lot of research when I decided to arm myself and decided on glock 19 it does not meet everyone criteria but 9 mm is an affordable cartridge that still has the power to stop an assault also the glock is a simple designed gun that’s easy to learn there are many knockoffs but I decided to go with the original whichever you decide I say rent some to make sure they feel good seek any local help sometimes chapters will hold meetups and are normally generous to allow trying different guns a gun must be reliable for protection


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Re: I have a question about gun ownership

#20 Post by Eris » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:46 pm

featureless wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:14 pm
Believe it or not, the .223/5.56 (the bullet the much maligned "high powered death ray" AR-15 and generally accepted Mini-14 both shoot) is one of the least likely to do that because the bullet itself is so light it tends to not go as far after striking something solid. It's counter intuitive, but that's what real research rather than internet lore shows.
That's a good point. When I said above that I'd probably grab my M1 over the Mini-14 I failed to mention that I live in a house with a bit of distance between me and the neighbors. When I lived in closer quarters I used the Mini-14 and loaded it with soft point bullets for extra safety.
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Re: I have a question about gun ownership

#21 Post by YankeeTarheel » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:08 pm

A pistol caliber carbine may WELL be a good choice., especially in 9mm. The carbines may be a little shorter and lighter, but with 9mm, less recoil. Several share magazines with pistols, too.
For discreet breakdown, NOTHING beats the Kel-Tec Sub-2000. Not the Ruger, not the Henry Survival, not the Beretta Cx4. You pull down the trigger guard and it folds in half. Can take Beretta 92, Sig P320, Glock, or S&W pistol magazines. Comes in 9mm or .40. Biggest problems are a fair amount of recoil and no good cheek pad. But it's light, short and surprisingly accurate. The Beretta Cx4 is a better carbine, pricier, but less recoil and for most (not all) people comfortable to shoot. It breaks in 2 in seconds but you have to be careful not to lose pieces.

Others suggest shotguns, but I know nothing about them. Revolvers are simple and obvious and also go "bang" reliably.
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Re: I have a question about gun ownership

#22 Post by Bucolic » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:25 pm

I’m coming in late to the party.

There are many variables in this problem: are you protecting yourself when you’re away from your home? In your home? Do you want to carry concealed? Do you have neighbors living nearby so you need to worry about overpenetration? Etc. That being said, you don’t need to solve it all at once. Assess your risk and get training. You might discover that shooting stuff is a lot of fun.

There is a lot of good information above, and I won’t muddy the waters anymore except to say that a 20 gauge pump shotgun like a Mossberg 500 covers a fair amount of parameter space.


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Re: I have a question about gun ownership

#23 Post by K9s » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:33 pm

I don't think AR-15s have ever been cheaper. The price can only go up. It is a good option.

The first rifle I bought for myself was an SKS at the outrageous panic price of $99. They sell for far more than that now. The AR is inexpensive and low recoil. It is also the most widely used sporting rifle, so YouTube and everything else has a lot of tutorials.
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Re: I have a question about gun ownership

#24 Post by Inquisitor » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:37 pm

Buy used.

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Re: I have a question about gun ownership

#25 Post by highdesert » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:39 pm

Great advice from Dr B, featureless and others. You're not being paranoid, these are unsettling times and owning and learning to use firearms is realistic. You may never have to use them for self defense but you have the comfort of knowing that they are there and you know how to use them. And :welcome: !
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