Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts

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inomaha
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Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts

Post by inomaha »

I've killed a lot of animals and have seen the affects of what bullets and knives can do when used properly. There were also several occasions where animals wandered up on the property after getting wounded by lazy people making bad shots or poachers who wouldn't track animals. It always amazed me that you could take down a 1500 lb steer with a .22 short and yet there would be other animals with high powered rifle wounds hiding out in the tree line during hunting season. I always got a funny feeling checking cattle around deer season and we always moved the horses to the farmstead.

I have a robust first aid kit, but maybe I should add some more specific items related to gun shot wounds and bleeding. It might help out in a traffic accident scenario too.

I hope to never see people in those sort of scenarios, but to be truthful, other than the emotional part, they are just a different form of animal. Of course, my track record is a zero survival rate so I'm not sure you want me working on you.
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inomaha
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Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts

Post by inomaha »

Queen wrote:I always get a little queasy when rambo wannabes get excited about the latest greatest ammo that has HUGE damage pathways.

It's a weird line to walk, wanting to protect ourselves and our loved ones, and yet (for me anyway) really not wanting to kill or maim another human being. I just want to be left alone, but as circumstances never seem to allow for that, I carry.

I appreciate having this place, where a discussion like this can happen.
I don't understand that either. In 99% of altercations, producing a gun will cause the other side to reconsider and retreat. In 99.99% of altercations, a loud bang, a flash and a sting from a small caliber gun would do the same. Do you really need to focus so much on killing the other person? People laugh at .22, .25, .32, .380 as unacceptable, but to be honest if you hit someone with it they'll probably stop what they're doing and leave. They're not going to stand around and have a caliber debate with you.
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Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts

Post by Queen »

inomaha wrote:... I hope to never see people in those sort of scenarios, but to be truthful, other than the emotional part, they are just a different form of animal. Of course, my track record is a zero survival rate so I'm not sure you want me working on you.
My absolute greatest fear, is being injured and unable to help myself, and having a well meaning but untrained/poorly trained bystander step in... and use the first aid skills they learned in scouts/high school/the army 40 years ago on me.

Used to have that conversation with my dad, he had combat first aid training for Korea and Vietnam, I explained how much had changed and to his credit he asked me to teach him the new stuff. He just wanted to be able to help. My mom was a nurse for her entire career and she and I used to have what my dad referred to as "revolting" conversations at the dinner table. :D

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Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts

Post by Queen »

inomaha wrote:
I don't understand that either. In 99% of altercations, producing a gun will cause the other side to reconsider and retreat. In 99.99% of altercations, a loud bang, a flash and a sting from a small caliber gun would do the same. Do you really need to focus so much on killing the other person? People laugh at .22, .25, .32, .380 as unacceptable, but to be honest if you hit someone with it they'll probably stop what they're doing and leave. They're not going to stand around and have a caliber debate with you.
Agreed. I can't remember where I read it, but a guy wrote about being shot, and how much it HURTS, it burns and the pain doesn't really let up but only intensifies. The people I've helped who have been shot bear this out.

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Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts

Post by highdesert »

inomaha wrote:
Queen wrote:I always get a little queasy when rambo wannabes get excited about the latest greatest ammo that has HUGE damage pathways.

It's a weird line to walk, wanting to protect ourselves and our loved ones, and yet (for me anyway) really not wanting to kill or maim another human being. I just want to be left alone, but as circumstances never seem to allow for that, I carry.

I appreciate having this place, where a discussion like this can happen.
I don't understand that either. In 99% of altercations, producing a gun will cause the other side to reconsider and retreat. In 99.99% of altercations, a loud bang, a flash and a sting from a small caliber gun would do the same. Do you really need to focus so much on killing the other person? People laugh at .22, .25, .32, .380 as unacceptable, but to be honest if you hit someone with it they'll probably stop what they're doing and leave. They're not going to stand around and have a caliber debate with you.
I'd think those rambo videos could end up backfiring on those guys if they were ever involved in a shooting and subsequently sued. Was their goal to kill the aggressor or to stop the aggression? There are plenty of cases where a 22lr bullet has been sufficient.

In some European countries "alarm guns" are legal, which are basically blank firing pistols. The thinking is that the noise of a gun will distract or deter an aggressor and alert others to come to the victims assistance. Of course some criminals turn them back into regular guns.
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Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts

Post by Treebeard »

My first gun defense is to not get shot. This isn't meant to be sarcastic, but just honest. Don't be pushy with people you don't have too. Don't go looking for confrontation or escalate arguments. If you feel a situation is getting weird and you can leave, get out ASAP. Do not continue forward into a worsening situation. Back up, replan and regroup.

If you're come to a point where violence is the only alternative where you come out alive do not project your intentions; don't say " stop or I am gonna hit you" pick up the best weapon you have and hit them with it. Fights are not about being fair, they are about not dying. As soon as you incapacitate your opponent withdraw; fights are not about winning either, they are about not dying. Every second you continue in a confrontation increases the odds you Will get injured. In a no definitive care situation your chances of surviving a gun shot wound are not great, and even if you survive the risk of permanent disability is great. If you survive a confrontation without injury I would recommend spending some serious should searching time on what choices you made to get you there and how you could choose differently in the future. As a person who has been in altercations I can say those times of reflection have been good for me.

From training I know that if you are shot, your first concern is the shooter. You have to stop or evade them before anything else. So long as they are shooting you, medical care is impossible. Once you have evaded or incapacitated your attacker, you need to be concerned with the bleeding. I have heard that tampons can be short term effective. Secondly you need to be aware of possible internal injuries such as organ damage or shattered bone. Thirdly you have to get as much of the foreign matter out of the wood as you can. That includes the bullet if you can find it, or fragments along with any cloth from your clothes or bone splinters. Then you need to worry about infection.

But I restate: avoiding the fight if at all possible is the safest way to go.

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Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts

Post by Evo1 »

Queen wrote:I notice not much commentary on the first part of my query "How many of us have seen what our guns can really do to a person, and have you made peace with that? ". It's a pretty personal question so I get that.
Yes, I have. To both questions. I've been involved in shooting incidents as a LEO, and seen first-hand both how effective and ineffective modern defensive handgun rounds are against the human body. I hope I never find myself in a situation that justifies the use deadly force again, but having been there before, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to use such force if it was necessary, because I don't want to find out the hard way that the person creating the situation is as prepared to use such force as I am.

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Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts

Post by dougb »

One problem with rendering aid to someone you have shot is if they are alive, they can still be a threat. You can hit them solid in a vital area, and they can still live until they bleed out, and still have the strength to pull another weapon and use it. Classic case shown on TV was a cop shot a BG in a car 6 times. BG got out while cop was reloading, opened the trunk, grabbed a gun and killed the cop. Every deer hunter has heard the story of the deer shot through the heart but managed to run several hundred yards on adrenalin.
Calling 911 can be seen as offering aid by getting the trained first responders.
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Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts

Post by Sarge »

inomaha wrote:
Queen wrote:I always get a little queasy when rambo wannabes get excited about the latest greatest ammo that has HUGE damage pathways.

It's a weird line to walk, wanting to protect ourselves and our loved ones, and yet (for me anyway) really not wanting to kill or maim another human being. I just want to be left alone, but as circumstances never seem to allow for that, I carry.

I appreciate having this place, where a discussion like this can happen.
I don't understand that either. In 99% of altercations, producing a gun will cause the other side to reconsider and retreat. In 99.99% of altercations, a loud bang, a flash and a sting from a small caliber gun would do the same. Do you really need to focus so much on killing the other person? People laugh at .22, .25, .32, .380 as unacceptable, but to be honest if you hit someone with it they'll probably stop what they're doing and leave. They're not going to stand around and have a caliber debate with you.
The doctrine is you continue to engage until the threat is ended.. think a wounded person will leave is wishful thinking..if they are leaving fine, threat over.. but if they aren't you continue to fire.. human body especially under stress does weird things.. in the excitement of the moment how many times have you heard .. " didn't realize I was shot" maybe not in person but in the telling of the tale.. President Reagan didn't realize it .

Attackers attack with the mental mindset to physically dominate their prey. Resistance is just as likely to deter, as aggravate that.. with maybe a slight edge to deter. The defender is going to have significantly impaired decision making abilities .. the attacker will probably seem somewhat larger than they actually are that's brain chemistry and the resultant body physical response. There is no such thing as shooting to disable or wound or drive off.. if you are defending your life and you truly believe you are.. you have to accept you are using lethal force with a possible lethal consequence.

If you really have questions about any of this, multiple shots, rendering aid, whatever, and you feel you might ever need to know the real answers .. find a good lawyer that specializes in self defense and find out what he needs you to do before, during and after such an situation to give him the best chance to defend you in court. A lot will depend on local law and community sentiment, and how various factors play out in the local courts Who shows up for jury duty in your jurisdiction? the Lawyer knows. What arguments do the judges allow ? again

There is such a thing as self defense insurance http://www.secondcalldefense.org/ it is not unreasonably priced. i carry a maxed out family plan.

You are going to be in a bad situation where no sane person should be asked to make life or death decisions and you will move directly to a situation where you will be asked regardless of how upset or mentally distraught ( asking to be checked out by emt's before you talk to authorities or make descions is a good idea ) that will decide , quite possibly the rest of your life and the welfare of your family. Ever hear the expression " You shouldn't make descions when you are tired or hungry"? There is a good reason for that. Regardless, you have to make life or death descions right now and decide your fate right now when attacked with lethal intent, and you have to believe it is lethal intent to legally defensibly respond with lethal force.

I suggest getting the best possible answers to your questions from the best possible sources seriously

Being sane is knowing right from wrong.. you are attacked and you are armed and you are asked to do what a reasonable person would do .. and you have to decide what is right and what is wrong and why your life matters more than another in an instant.

And so and so on the internet in a chat room or a forum said..... yeah okayyyyy

Why not take a C note and buy 30 minutes/ an hour of actual expertise, with the bonus of being able to say I followed my lawyers legal advice, which actually has weight in court.

Just because you have a gun does not mean you have to stand your ground .. it is okay to run away if you can do it safely.. if you are carrying you are supposed to be practicing an elevated level of situational awareness , that obligation comes with the gun. Not just possible threats but, possible escape routes is part and parcel of that.

And yes.. I have seen what bullets do.

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Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts

Post by Bisbee »

This is a very good point you raised, Queen.

I often go shooting at open, unsupervised ranges. Though I carry a tiny first aid kit in the truck I never sought out training to stabilize gunshot wounds. Now I wonder why. Clearly it would be important training for this sport. One could look at it as an extension of firearm and projectile training.

But where to get such training? Not exactly advertised at the LGS or anywhere I can think of off hand.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

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Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts

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Treebeard wrote:My first gun defense is to not get shot. This isn't meant to be sarcastic, but just honest. Don't be pushy with people you don't have too. Don't go looking for confrontation or escalate arguments. If you feel a situation is getting weird and you can leave, get out ASAP. Do not continue forward into a worsening situation. Back up, replan and regroup.

If you're come to a point where violence is the only alternative where you come out alive do not project your intentions; don't say " stop or I am gonna hit you" pick up the best weapon you have and hit them with it. Fights are not about being fair, they are about not dying. As soon as you incapacitate your opponent withdraw; fights are not about winning either, they are about not dying. Every second you continue in a confrontation increases the odds you Will get injured. In a no definitive care situation your chances of surviving a gun shot wound are not great, and even if you survive the risk of permanent disability is great. If you survive a confrontation without injury I would recommend spending some serious should searching time on what choices you made to get you there and how you could choose differently in the future. As a person who has been in altercations I can say those times of reflection have been good for me.

From training I know that if you are shot, your first concern is the shooter. You have to stop or evade them before anything else. So long as they are shooting you, medical care is impossible. Once you have evaded or incapacitated your attacker, you need to be concerned with the bleeding. I have heard that tampons can be short term effective. Secondly you need to be aware of possible internal injuries such as organ damage or shattered bone. Thirdly you have to get as much of the foreign matter out of the wood as you can. That includes the bullet if you can find it, or fragments along with any cloth from your clothes or bone splinters. Then you need to worry about infection.

But I restate: avoiding the fight if at all possible is the safest way to go.
I really like this very realistic, highly sensible, exceedingly wise, and well said post.

as to the Tactical Adventure Medical Preparedness Outdoors Necessity (T.A.M.P.O.N.).

http://www.artofmanliness.com/2012/06/0 ... al-tampon/

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Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts

Post by Stiff »

I've been meaning to get some first aid training, so thanks for the reminder. Keeping an IFAK set in the car is a good idea.

As for shooting other people, I have made peace with it, because it only comes when I have no other choice. If bad stuff happens, I fully expect to employ my sneakers as the first line of defense (by running the hell away).

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Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts

Post by Queen »

Bisbee wrote:This is a very good point you raised, Queen.

I often go shooting at open, unsupervised ranges. Though I carry a tiny first aid kit in the truck I never sought out training to stabilize gunshot wounds. Now I wonder why. Clearly it would be important training for this sport. One could look at it as an extension of firearm and projectile training.

But where to get such training? Not exactly advertised at the LGS or anywhere I can think of off hand.
Basic first aid wouldn't be enough. A decent EMT class would teach you more. If you're already well versed in basic first aid and are able to learn by reading (many can't and need the visual process as well), a EMT manual can be purchased from Amazon, or you can get a used copy and many community college bookstores.

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Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts

Post by Inquisitor »

Queen wrote:
Bisbee wrote:This is a very good point you raised, Queen.

I often go shooting at open, unsupervised ranges. Though I carry a tiny first aid kit in the truck I never sought out training to stabilize gunshot wounds. Now I wonder why. Clearly it would be important training for this sport. One could look at it as an extension of firearm and projectile training.

But where to get such training? Not exactly advertised at the LGS or anywhere I can think of off hand.
Basic first aid wouldn't be enough. A decent EMT class would teach you more. If you're already well versed in basic first aid and are able to learn by reading (many can't and need the visual process as well), a EMT manual can be purchased from Amazon, or you can get a used copy and many community college bookstores.
Any EMT manual, or a specific one?

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Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts

Post by Queen »

This is the manual EMT's learn from (for State and National certification), used ones are much cheaper:

https://www.amazon.com/Emergency-Care-T ... b_title_bk

You can google up just about any of the information separately, but learning it from the ground up and in order will better prepare you for looking up specific info like gunshot wound management.

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Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts

Post by dwnhlldav »

To the first question, I have not seen a gun shot wound in person.

To the second question, I'm a ski patroller, we're trained as Outdoor Emergency Care Technicians. Our current standards are somewhere between wilderness first responder and EMT-B. Usually around 80 hours of training depending on the instructor. We are generally responding to incidents further from definitive care than urban EMTs but not as far as a Wilderness EMTs and our training reflects this. We can't intubate with a combi tube but can put in NPAs and OPAs. Also can't start an IV or give drugs other than assisting with drugs prescribed to the patient (epi-pens, inhalers, nitro, etc.). The last major overhaul of the standards saw the inclusion of much more training for non-ski related injuries, the goal being to make it relevant for summer activities at ski resorts. I'm also an instructor for the program.

Besides my ski patrol kit, my most extensive kit is in my car and is equipped to handle major bleeding, broken bones, cpr, plus a range of minor injuries. It also has an adult, and pediatric c-collar. I also have several different scaled down kits tailored to different activities, and stashed with the gear for those activities.

With regards to shooting activities, my range bag has an IFAK that I toss in my vest when I go grouse hunting. Since I haven't taken to carrying a gun outside hunting or to and from the range, I don't typically carry this first aid kit with me daily, though the main kit in my car has all the same supplies as this kit. It contains:
Israeli Bandage
Roll o' Gauze
ABD Pads
Quick clot pads
Chest seal
CAT Tourniquet
Nasopharyngeal Airway with lube
EMT Shears
Exam gloves
Tape


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