Kind of a combo post:
I was reading about carry ammo and seeing some of the hellish ammo out there, and it got me to thinking about EMS and the damage of a round. And, one of the newbies mentioned being a medic would be in high demand in a SHTF scenario.
I'm a former firefighter/medic and have seen a couple of gunshot wounds, along with more other ugly shit than I care to remember. I always assume everyone knows about medical stuff since I grew up around it, but as I realized last night when one of the dinner guests was relating a trip to the ER story and how he had to google the location of the appendix, that is really not the case.
I'm curious about a couple of things;
- How many of us have seen what our guns can really do to a person, and have you made peace with that?
- What steps have you taken (if any) to assure your ability to take care of you and yours if you are put in a situation where you or your loved one is damaged.
Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts
2It's something to consider beforehand.
Puffing up is no substitute for smarts but it's a common home remedy
Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts
3I admit I haven't done much. I do keep Quik Clot in my range bag and first aid kit along with large gauze pads, tape, etc. I'd be interested in hearing advice on the issue of preparedness for gunshot wounds.
As for the wounds themselves, no, I have never witnessed the effect on humans.
As for the wounds themselves, no, I have never witnessed the effect on humans.
Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts
4Recently I had a long conversation with a friend who is an active medic, she suggested for people with past experience, get a current manual and learn the updated material.Bucolic wrote:I admit I haven't done much. I do keep Quik Clot in my range bag and first aid kit along with large gauze pads, tape, etc. I'd be interested in hearing advice on the issue of preparedness for gunshot wounds.
As for the wounds themselves, no, I have never witnessed the effect on humans.
For new folks wanting to learn there is always the red cross first aid classes, but I find them so incredibly basic as to only be good for the short window of time until EMS responds (not to say they lack value, just consider them a starting point rather than a destination). Were it me, being new and wondering where to turn, I'd go with the Wilderness EMS classes. They cover things in much more depth and without the assumption of ready access to a medical facility. REI stores offer them several times a year.
Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts
5Good suggestion. I did basic course but that was long ago.
Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts
6EMTs are just trained to stabilize you for the trip to the hospital, and hopefully get you there within the "golden hour" when it will be most effective in saving you. Wilderness EMT training is somewhat more useful in an emergency management context because the emphasis is in keeping you alive with the expectation that you won't be getting to a doctor anytime soon. The majority of gunshots (especially from pistol calibers) are survivable if you can get to an ER quickly. In a total grid down situation you will most likely die either from the injury itself or even more likely die from the resulting infection.
Many more gunshot wounds than you might think are sustained in the extremities: arms, legs, hands, feet. Tourniquets are essential to stop the bleeding and either get you back into the fight (at least enough to shoot) or else give you the chance to get away before you pass out or bleed out. Carry a tourniquet (two is better) in a blow out kit (BOK) where it can be reached by either hand. This is separate from your IFAK. One thing you need to remember is to ignore every Hollywood movie you've ever seen because you NEVER ever pour alcohol on a gunshot wound or any puncture wound. The booze will necrotize the wound and make infection worse due to the tissue you just killed. Same with cauterizing with a hot iron: NO!
Get a copy of Where There is No Doctor. It's one of the classic survival medicine texts. Not specifically about gunshots, but useful info about "bush" doctoring in primitive conditions. Also The Survival Medicine Handbook is useful. Best advice:
#1) best way to win a fight is to avoid one
#2) if you do get in a fight then wear body armor
#2) get tactical training so you don't get shot (hopefully)
Many more gunshot wounds than you might think are sustained in the extremities: arms, legs, hands, feet. Tourniquets are essential to stop the bleeding and either get you back into the fight (at least enough to shoot) or else give you the chance to get away before you pass out or bleed out. Carry a tourniquet (two is better) in a blow out kit (BOK) where it can be reached by either hand. This is separate from your IFAK. One thing you need to remember is to ignore every Hollywood movie you've ever seen because you NEVER ever pour alcohol on a gunshot wound or any puncture wound. The booze will necrotize the wound and make infection worse due to the tissue you just killed. Same with cauterizing with a hot iron: NO!
Get a copy of Where There is No Doctor. It's one of the classic survival medicine texts. Not specifically about gunshots, but useful info about "bush" doctoring in primitive conditions. Also The Survival Medicine Handbook is useful. Best advice:
#1) best way to win a fight is to avoid one
#2) if you do get in a fight then wear body armor
#2) get tactical training so you don't get shot (hopefully)
Last edited by HuckleberryFun on Mon Dec 26, 2016 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts
7Good questions. I taught first aid years ago, but I've forgotten probably more than I knew. Breathing, bleeding and poisoning were the three hurry cases we taught at that time. Some sort of emergency training is not a bad idea considering some places we shoot are remote and you can't always count on cell phone reception.
It reminds me of the three Americans who were on a Paris bound train last year, they saved the day by tackling a terrorist. The airman in that group had EMT training and saved the life of the professor who first tried to tackle the terrorist. I think he applied pressure to an artery and kept the man from bleeding out.
It reminds me of the three Americans who were on a Paris bound train last year, they saved the day by tackling a terrorist. The airman in that group had EMT training and saved the life of the professor who first tried to tackle the terrorist. I think he applied pressure to an artery and kept the man from bleeding out.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts
8Saw this on the web, "21 Medical Kit - must haves for treating a gunshot wound when the SHTF!" This would need training like NG Tube, sutures, IV etc.
http://survival-mastery.com/med/health/ ... wound.html
http://survival-mastery.com/med/health/ ... wound.html
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts
9Great article HD, it's unfortunate that learning to suture and start IV's is considered too advanced for"civilians" in this country, they are excellent skills to have.
Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts
11Tourniquet use is not.Queen wrote:Great article HD, it's unfortunate that learning to suture and start IV's is considered too advanced for"civilians" in this country, they are excellent skills to have.
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Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts
12I've never seen a gun shot wound on a human, though I have killed several deer and one bull elk. Of course, a high powered rifle is a bit different than a defensive caliber handgun.
I have taken a 2 day Wilderness 1st aid class twice. This differs from the usual urban 1st aid because we are assuming that real medical help is at least a few hours away. I also keep a complete 1st aid kit with a Kwik Clot in my vehicle.
Have I thought about killing another human being in self defense? Yes. I have. I hope to never have to take a human life but will do so to protect my family and myself.
There have been 2 occasions in my life where someone seemed to have ill intent and though a gun was never shown, said persons perceived that I had a gun and changed their plans. Hopefully, it will never go further than that.
I have taken a 2 day Wilderness 1st aid class twice. This differs from the usual urban 1st aid because we are assuming that real medical help is at least a few hours away. I also keep a complete 1st aid kit with a Kwik Clot in my vehicle.
Have I thought about killing another human being in self defense? Yes. I have. I hope to never have to take a human life but will do so to protect my family and myself.
There have been 2 occasions in my life where someone seemed to have ill intent and though a gun was never shown, said persons perceived that I had a gun and changed their plans. Hopefully, it will never go further than that.
Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts
13And tourniquet use is a quality skill as well, if medical help is somewhat nearby.Inquisitor wrote:Tourniquet use is not.Queen wrote:Great article HD, it's unfortunate that learning to suture and start IV's is considered too advanced for"civilians" in this country, they are excellent skills to have.
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Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts
14A good trauma class is a must in the arsenal, no pun intended.Queen wrote:And tourniquet use is a quality skill as well, if medical help is somewhat nearby.Inquisitor wrote:Tourniquet use is not.Queen wrote:Great article HD, it's unfortunate that learning to suture and start IV's is considered too advanced for"civilians" in this country, they are excellent skills to have.
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Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts
15Agreed. It's the same as a defensive shooting situation, training training training, so when you have to act, you will.Inquisitor wrote:A good trauma class is a must in the arsenal, no pun intended.Queen wrote:And tourniquet use is a quality skill as well, if medical help is somewhat nearby.Inquisitor wrote:Tourniquet use is not.Queen wrote:Great article HD, it's unfortunate that learning to suture and start IV's is considered too advanced for"civilians" in this country, they are excellent skills to have.
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Cannot tell you how many times I rolled up on scene and there would be a victim (car accident, bar fight...) and there would be bystanders just looking. The person laying on the ground bleeding in front of them and they stood there immobile, gripped by fear and indecision.
Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts
16A few years ago, I was at work in San Francisco. I heard a bad car accident nearby. I ran outside to find a man in a Z-28 had lost control of his car and crashed into a parked truck. There were already about 10 people gathered around but they were just looking. The man was unconscious and badly hurt. I made sure that he was breathing, checked him for bleeding, which there wasn't anything substantial and stabilized his neck, which needed to be done. I yelled at the gathered crowd for someone to call 911, It's amazing to me that no one had. A really trashy looking woman with a cigarette hanging out of her mouth offered to administer CPR, though he was clearly breathing and moaning. Fire department paramedics showed up and took over. I don't know if he lived or died.
By the time the paramedics arrived, there were about 20 people watching. Not one of them offered any real help. I suppose that if I were badly hurt that I might not want any of those people to touch me.
By the time the paramedics arrived, there were about 20 people watching. Not one of them offered any real help. I suppose that if I were badly hurt that I might not want any of those people to touch me.
Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts
17Only the cute ones get to CPR me. Oh, oh, oh, oh, stayin alive, stayin alive...Kayaker wrote:A few years ago, I was at work in San Francisco. I heard a bad car accident nearby. I ran outside to find a man in a Z-28 had lost control of his car and crashed into a parked truck. There were already about 10 people gathered around but they were just looking. The man was unconscious and badly hurt. I made sure that he was breathing, checked him for bleeding, which there wasn't anything substantial and stabilized his neck, which needed to be done. I yelled at the gathered crowd for someone to call 911, It's amazing to me that no one had. A really trashy looking woman with a cigarette hanging out of her mouth offered to administer CPR, though he was clearly breathing and moaning. Fire department paramedics showed up and took over. I don't know if he lived or died.
By the time the paramedics arrived, there were about 20 people watching. Not one of them offered any real help. I suppose that if I were badly hurt that I might not want any of those people to touch me.
Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts
18States have what is known as a Good Samaritan Law that protects persons who render assistance from civil damages. In 2008 the California Supreme Court issued their decision in Alexandra Van Horn v. Lisa Torti and many people rethought assisting during emergencies.
http://content.time.com/time/nation/art ... 31,00.html
This is California's current law as revised by the Legislature after the above case.
http://content.time.com/time/nation/art ... 31,00.html
This is California's current law as revised by the Legislature after the above case.
California Health and Safety Code Section 1799.102 says, “No person who in good faith, and not for compensation, renders emergency medical or nonmedical care at the scene of an emergency shall be liable for any civil damages resulting from any act or omission.”
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan
Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts
19I used to go over and over and over this when I was teaching First Aid and CPR classes, I even passed out written copies of the IL statute. A lot of people are terrified of being sued, even more than letting someone suffer.highdesert wrote:States have what is known as a Good Samaritan Law that protects persons who render assistance from civil damages. In 2008 the California Supreme Court issued their decision in Alexandra Van Horn v. Lisa Torti and many people rethought assisting during emergencies.
http://content.time.com/time/nation/art ... 31,00.html
This is California's current law as revised by the Legislature after the above case.
California Health and Safety Code Section 1799.102 says, “No person who in good faith, and not for compensation, renders emergency medical or nonmedical care at the scene of an emergency shall be liable for any civil damages resulting from any act or omission.”
Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts
20I notice not much commentary on the first part of my query "How many of us have seen what our guns can really do to a person, and have you made peace with that? ". It's a pretty personal question so I get that.
It came to mind during my shitty CCW class, the retired cop instructor was adamant that after a shooting situation you DO NOT DISRUPT THE CRIME SCENE. But I know myself pretty well and if I shot someone, as soon as the threat was over, I would render aid without a second thought; it's just who I am, far more Medic than Cop.
It came to mind during my shitty CCW class, the retired cop instructor was adamant that after a shooting situation you DO NOT DISRUPT THE CRIME SCENE. But I know myself pretty well and if I shot someone, as soon as the threat was over, I would render aid without a second thought; it's just who I am, far more Medic than Cop.
Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts
21I like to think the same, but tbh, if someone just brought me to the point of shooting them it might take a minute for me to get over those feelings.
I have seen people with bullets in them. It is not at all nice.
I have seen people with bullets in them. It is not at all nice.
Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts
22Agreed, I think I'd have to let the adrenaline shakes subside a bit.Marlene wrote:I like to think the same, but tbh, if someone just brought me to the point of shooting them it might take a minute for me to get over those feelings.
I have seen people with bullets in them. It is not at all nice.
Apparently, per cop instructor, rendering aid would be something their attorney will use against you to show remorse or that you made a wrong choice to shoot. Can't wrap my head around that "fuck em, they were the aggressor" attitude. They are still a fellow human being, they are hurt, they need help. Probably explains why I was such a shitty LEO.
Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts
24This. Rescue squad EMT and Army Medic. I haven't worked in those fields for twenty years because...Inquisitor wrote:I have.
It's exactly the reason that over the years at this place I have gotten in so many "debates" on the subject of every body and their idiot brother wandering around packing a gun.
'Sorry stupid people but there are some definite disadvantages to being stupid."
-John Cleese
-John Cleese
Re: Emergency medical care/gunshot wound thoughts
25I always get a little queasy when rambo wannabes get excited about the latest greatest ammo that has HUGE damage pathways.
It's a weird line to walk, wanting to protect ourselves and our loved ones, and yet (for me anyway) really not wanting to kill or maim another human being. I just want to be left alone, but as circumstances never seem to allow for that, I carry.
I appreciate having this place, where a discussion like this can happen.
It's a weird line to walk, wanting to protect ourselves and our loved ones, and yet (for me anyway) really not wanting to kill or maim another human being. I just want to be left alone, but as circumstances never seem to allow for that, I carry.
I appreciate having this place, where a discussion like this can happen.