Missouri town wants to privatize sidewalks to ban guns

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Desperate To Stop Gun Violence, Westport Pushes For Private Sidewalks
According to stats collected by the Westport Regional Business League, there were 16 gun-related weapons offenses in the district in 2016. In 2017, there were 65 — and that's only through Oct. 31.

A Missouri law that took effect in January allows people to carry guns without a permit in nearly every public space, so there’s not much business owners or police can do to keep guns out.
There is no mention of whether those who want to implement the ban have established the carry law is the cause of the "gun-related weapons offenses."
A coalition of Westport business owners are behind a proposal to privatize the sidewalks in entertainment district. That would allow them to ban guns in the district and screen for them on busy weekend nights.
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Re: Missouri town wants to privatize sidewalks to ban guns

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Signs need to be 11"x14" with 1" letters to be able to have those without permits charged with a Misdemeanor and those with a permit to be asked to leave by police or get a Tresspassing citation.

Frankly, places here only need to ask me once. Even if their sign does not meet the legal criteria or does not exist, I explain to them WHY their request will be followed as I am no longer wishing to give them my patronage or business. I also point out that folks who go through the process to get a CCW permit can ignore their signage with little criminal issue.

CWE is not exactly a hot bed of criminal activity, unless cops get away with murder.

I have never been asked to leave due to being armed. Then again, I am not the demographic that these stores fear as I am a middle aged white guy.
In a bacon, egg and cheese sandwich the chicken and cow are involved while the pig is committed.

Re: Missouri town wants to privatize sidewalks to ban guns

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*571.107. Permit does not authorize concealed firearms, where — penalty for violation. — 1. A concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121, a valid concealed carry endorsement issued prior to August 28, 2013, or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize the person in whose name the permit or endorsement is issued to carry concealed firearms on or about his or her person or vehicle throughout the state. No concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121, valid concealed carry endorsement issued prior to August 28, 2013, or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize any person to carry concealed firearms into:
-snip-
(15) Any private property whose owner has posted the premises as being off-limits to concealed firearms by means of one or more signs displayed in a conspicuous place of a minimum size of eleven inches by fourteen inches with the writing thereon in letters of not less than one inch. The owner, business or commercial lessee, manager of a private business enterprise, or any other organization, entity, or person may prohibit persons holding a concealed carry permit or endorsement from carrying concealed firearms on the premises and may prohibit employees, not authorized by the employer, holding a concealed carry permit or endorsement from carrying concealed firearms on the property of the employer. If the building or the premises are open to the public, the employer of the business enterprise shall post signs on or about the premises if carrying a concealed firearm is prohibited. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises. An employer may prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed carry permit or endorsement from carrying a concealed firearm in vehicles owned by the employer;
-snip-
2. Carrying of a concealed firearm in a location specified in subdivisions (1) to (17) of subsection 1 of this section by any individual who holds a concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121, or a concealed carry endorsement issued prior to August 28, 2013, shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial to the premises or removal from the premises. If such person refuses to leave the premises and a peace officer is summoned, such person may be issued a citation for an amount not to exceed one hundred dollars for the first offense. If a second citation for a similar violation occurs within a six-month period, such person shall be fined an amount not to exceed two hundred dollars and his or her permit, and, if applicable, endorsement to carry concealed firearms shall be suspended for a period of one year. If a third citation for a similar violation is issued within one year of the first citation, such person shall be fined an amount not to exceed five hundred dollars and shall have his or her concealed carry permit, and, if applicable, endorsement revoked and such person shall not be eligible for a concealed carry permit for a period of three years. Upon conviction of charges arising from a citation issued pursuant to this subsection, the court shall notify the sheriff of the county which issued the concealed carry permit, or, if the person is a holder of a concealed carry endorsement issued prior to August 28, 2013, the court shall notify the sheriff of the county which issued the certificate of qualification for a concealed carry endorsement and the department of revenue. The sheriff shall suspend or revoke the concealed carry permit or, if applicable, the certificate of qualification for a concealed carry endorsement. If the person holds an endorsement, the department of revenue shall issue a notice of such suspension or revocation of the concealed carry endorsement and take action to remove the concealed carry endorsement from the individual's driving record. The director of revenue shall notify the licensee that he or she must apply for a new license pursuant to chapter 302 which does not contain such endorsement. The notice issued by the department of revenue shall be mailed to the last known address shown on the individual's driving record. The notice is deemed received three days after mailing.
http://revisor.mo.gov/main/OneSection.a ... =29721&hl=

All the legalese, specifically about permit rules but they still hold true as the new law only did away with the permit requirement while still maintaining the rules/restrictions about where it's legal to carry.
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Re: Missouri town wants to privatize sidewalks to ban guns

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:crazy: It needs a lot more analysis and work, it wasn't thought through. If sidewalks are privatized then armed people with their children start walking in the streets which is dangerous or they start shopping in nearby towns that are welcoming and Westport loses business. Poorly written article, the reporter needs to define and analyze "gun-related weapons offenses", what's caused them to go up. Not enough information in the article.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Missouri town wants to privatize sidewalks to ban guns

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Wait until the first time they have to do any utility work - they'll find out why sidewalks are public right-of-way. Or a business owner decides to get pissy and deny sidewalk access to the firm next door's customers.

They didn't think this one through well at all.
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Re: Missouri town wants to privatize sidewalks to ban guns

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Darwinchip wrote:
*571.107. Permit does not authorize concealed firearms, where — penalty for violation. — 1. A concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121, a valid concealed carry endorsement issued prior to August 28, 2013, or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize the person in whose name the permit or endorsement is issued to carry concealed firearms on or about his or her person or vehicle throughout the state. No concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121, valid concealed carry endorsement issued prior to August 28, 2013, or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize any person to carry concealed firearms into:
-snip-
(15) Any private property whose owner has posted the premises as being off-limits to concealed firearms by means of one or more signs displayed in a conspicuous place of a minimum size of eleven inches by fourteen inches with the writing thereon in letters of not less than one inch. The owner, business or commercial lessee, manager of a private business enterprise, or any other organization, entity, or person may prohibit persons holding a concealed carry permit or endorsement from carrying concealed firearms on the premises and may prohibit employees, not authorized by the employer, holding a concealed carry permit or endorsement from carrying concealed firearms on the property of the employer. If the building or the premises are open to the public, the employer of the business enterprise shall post signs on or about the premises if carrying a concealed firearm is prohibited. Possession of a firearm in a vehicle on the premises shall not be a criminal offense so long as the firearm is not removed from the vehicle or brandished while the vehicle is on the premises. An employer may prohibit employees or other persons holding a concealed carry permit or endorsement from carrying a concealed firearm in vehicles owned by the employer;
-snip-
2. Carrying of a concealed firearm in a location specified in subdivisions (1) to (17) of subsection 1 of this section by any individual who holds a concealed carry permit issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121, or a concealed carry endorsement issued prior to August 28, 2013, shall not be a criminal act but may subject the person to denial to the premises or removal from the premises. If such person refuses to leave the premises and a peace officer is summoned, such person may be issued a citation for an amount not to exceed one hundred dollars for the first offense. If a second citation for a similar violation occurs within a six-month period, such person shall be fined an amount not to exceed two hundred dollars and his or her permit, and, if applicable, endorsement to carry concealed firearms shall be suspended for a period of one year. If a third citation for a similar violation is issued within one year of the first citation, such person shall be fined an amount not to exceed five hundred dollars and shall have his or her concealed carry permit, and, if applicable, endorsement revoked and such person shall not be eligible for a concealed carry permit for a period of three years. Upon conviction of charges arising from a citation issued pursuant to this subsection, the court shall notify the sheriff of the county which issued the concealed carry permit, or, if the person is a holder of a concealed carry endorsement issued prior to August 28, 2013, the court shall notify the sheriff of the county which issued the certificate of qualification for a concealed carry endorsement and the department of revenue. The sheriff shall suspend or revoke the concealed carry permit or, if applicable, the certificate of qualification for a concealed carry endorsement. If the person holds an endorsement, the department of revenue shall issue a notice of such suspension or revocation of the concealed carry endorsement and take action to remove the concealed carry endorsement from the individual's driving record. The director of revenue shall notify the licensee that he or she must apply for a new license pursuant to chapter 302 which does not contain such endorsement. The notice issued by the department of revenue shall be mailed to the last known address shown on the individual's driving record. The notice is deemed received three days after mailing.
http://revisor.mo.gov/main/OneSection.a ... =29721&hl=

All the legalese, specifically about permit rules but they still hold true as the new law only did away with the permit requirement while still maintaining the rules/restrictions about where it's legal to carry.
Used to be a felony to carry sans permit. Also, would be great if all the verbiage around 'endorsement' expired in August of 2015.
In a bacon, egg and cheese sandwich the chicken and cow are involved while the pig is committed.

Re: Missouri town wants to privatize sidewalks to ban guns

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SwampGrouch wrote:Wait until the first time they have to do any utility work - they'll find out why sidewalks are public right-of-way. Or a business owner decides to get pissy and deny sidewalk access to the firm next door's customers.

They didn't think this one through well at all.
Oh yeah, that will get expensive.

Of course, most construction companies have wording in their Employee Handbook against carrying even if you have a permit to do so which means at least the folks there charging a LOT of money for the work to the owners of the property won't be armed.

Except they likely are, as the thief that tried to rob an ABF crew found out near where we used to live near Dellwood.
In a bacon, egg and cheese sandwich the chicken and cow are involved while the pig is committed.

Re: Missouri town wants to privatize sidewalks to ban guns

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ErikO wrote:
SwampGrouch wrote:Wait until the first time they have to do any utility work - they'll find out why sidewalks are public right-of-way. Or a business owner decides to get pissy and deny sidewalk access to the firm next door's customers.

They didn't think this one through well at all.
Oh yeah, that will get expensive.

Of course, most construction companies have wording in their Employee Handbook against carrying even if you have a permit to do so which means at least the folks there charging a LOT of money for the work to the owners of the property won't be armed.

Except they likely are, as the thief that tried to rob an ABF crew found out near where we used to live near Dellwood.
Don't forget liability and maintainence issues...
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Re: Missouri town wants to privatize sidewalks to ban guns

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My brother used to own a home in Portland, OR. One day he received a letter in the mail stating the sidewalk in front of his house had cracked and tilted and needed to be repaired. This wasn't due to root damage (no trees) or anything due to his actions. The letter went on to state he needed to have it repaired by a date and a list of 3 contractors who were licensed and approved to do the repair. :crazy: :shock: :?

$9k later the city had a new section of public sidewalk.

Re: Missouri town wants to privatize sidewalks to ban guns

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BKinzey wrote:My brother used to own a home in Portland, OR. One day he received a letter in the mail stating the sidewalk in front of his house had cracked and tilted and needed to be repaired. This wasn't due to root damage (no trees) or anything due to his actions. The letter went on to state he needed to have it repaired by a date and a list of 3 contractors who were licensed and approved to do the repair. :crazy: :shock: :?

$9k later the city had a new section of public sidewalk.
That's not uncommon. The city I'm from very rarely will repair a sidewalk in front of a house. It's the landowner's responsibility.

Re: Missouri town wants to privatize sidewalks to ban guns

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Here in Texas it depends on how your dee is setup in some cities like Fort Worth and Denton the city owns the sidewalk and is responsible for it unless they can show it was the property owner fault for the damage. In most newer sub-divisions this is considered the commons area and is a city easement.
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