Biden allegedly considering EA to ban illegal sales of unserialized firearms

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DispositionMatrix
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Biden allegedly considering EA to ban illegal sales of unserialized firearms

#1 Post by DispositionMatrix » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:28 am

I did not type that title incorrectly, though the authors at Poltico might be so out of their depth they got the proposed EA entirely wrong.
Biden considers regulating 'ghost guns,' other executive actions to curb gun violence
This text does not make sense, per existing law, but here it is:
Among the executive actions under consideration by the administration is one that would require buyers of so-called ghost guns — homemade or makeshift firearms that lack serial numbers — to undergo background checks, according to three people who have spoken to the White House about their plans.
It already is federally illegal to transfer a "firearm" without a serial number. Thus a home-built receiver already cannot be transferred without a SN having been applied.
Firearms - Guides - Importation & Verification of Firearms, Ammunition - Firearms Verification Overview

But if a receiver is home-built but never transferred, at what point would a BG check occur?

The article contains no further detail about this particular proposed restriction.

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Re: Biden allegedly considering EA to ban illegal sales of unserialized firearms

#2 Post by Northern » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:56 am

It’s a remarkably long article given the very small amount of content. Most of it sounds very tentative... we still don’t know what they will actually try to do, or manage to do. Most of the content is just people saying what they want to do.

If they want to make BG checks on nonserialized receivers mandatory, they will have to render the possession illegal pending registration for a serial number, at which point they could require a BG check. I think it would be fairly straightforward to require but difficult to enforce for sure.

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Re: Biden allegedly considering EA to ban illegal sales of unserialized firearms

#3 Post by NegativeApproach » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:23 pm

So will they ban 80% lowers from being sold, even though they can literally be printed at home on a 3d printer?

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Re: Biden allegedly considering EA to ban illegal sales of unserialized firearms

#4 Post by sikacz » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:30 pm

NegativeApproach wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:23 pm So will they ban 80% lowers from being sold, even though they can literally be printed at home on a 3d printer?
I would think they would go after possession as well. Some people just want to make more criminals.
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Re: Biden allegedly considering EA to ban illegal sales of unserialized firearms

#5 Post by DispositionMatrix » Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:40 pm

NegativeApproach wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:23 pm So will they ban 80% lowers from being sold, even though they can literally be printed at home on a 3d printer?
The article said "firearms." 80% lowers are not firearms. That's why this report doesn't make sense.

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Re: Biden allegedly considering EA to ban illegal sales of unserialized firearms

#6 Post by sikacz » Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:45 pm

DispositionMatrix wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:40 pm
NegativeApproach wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:23 pm So will they ban 80% lowers from being sold, even though they can literally be printed at home on a 3d printer?
The article said "firearms." 80% lowers are not firearms. That's why this report doesn't make sense.
I thought it was already illegal to sell firearms without serial numbers.
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Re: Biden allegedly considering EA to ban illegal sales of unserialized firearms

#7 Post by DispositionMatrix » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:27 pm

sikacz wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:45 pm
DispositionMatrix wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:40 pm
NegativeApproach wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:23 pm So will they ban 80% lowers from being sold, even though they can literally be printed at home on a 3d printer?
The article said "firearms." 80% lowers are not firearms. That's why this report doesn't make sense.
I thought it was already illegal to sell firearms without serial numbers.
It is illegal for importers or manufacturers to transfer unserialized firearms. On the Interwebz, people will argue it is not illegal for individuals to sell unserialized firearms because there is no language specifically calling out individuals making unserialized firearms in the GCA'68 and ATF docs. Both reference "manufacturers," but there is language included describing those who make firearms as such and there are ambiguous references to "intent." Lawyers advise not doing it. One could easily argue if a home builder decides to sell his/her unserialized firearm privately, no one has been harmed, but my guess is if that person were to be arrested for the sale, he/she would be fighting for freedom from long-term storage.

Bear in mind there are plenty of pre-'68 firearms that do not have serial numbers. Under current law they are legal to transfer.

I am not a lawyer and would like to see more on this, including case law.

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Re: Biden allegedly considering EA to ban illegal sales of unserialized firearms

#8 Post by lurker » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:43 pm

i can (in theory) make a gun(who is to know?), but before i can sell it, i must stamp a # on it. it's probably more complicated than that, something about a federal firearms license.

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Re: Biden allegedly considering EA to ban illegal sales of unserialized firearms

#9 Post by DougB1946 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:56 pm

Pretty sure the criminals will not even notice, If you get your guns by stealing them, an FFL doesn't get involved.

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Re: Biden allegedly considering EA to ban illegal sales of unserialized firearms

#10 Post by Mikeinmich » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:10 pm

I’m not an expert on this (surprise) but I was under the impression that he couldn’t do that with an eo because of some kind of specific statutory language. ???

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Re: Biden allegedly considering EA to ban illegal sales of unserialized firearms

#11 Post by sikacz » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:46 pm

Mikeinmich wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:10 pm I’m not an expert on this (surprise) but I was under the impression that he couldn’t do that with an eo because of some kind of specific statutory language. ???
What would stop him from trying? He does it and waits to be slapped on the hand. Meanwhile law enforcement and DA’s go to work. Legal and illegal seem to be a matter who gets there first and who has the most juice. We just had a president who went full bore on all sorts of questionable activities. I’m thinking it’s a bit like making unconstitutional laws. It takes time before it’s deemed unconstitutional and it takes money. In the mean time someone with small pockets gets taken for a ride.
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Re: Biden allegedly considering EA to ban illegal sales of unserialized firearms

#12 Post by dontknow » Wed Feb 24, 2021 5:16 am

DispositionMatrix wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:27 pm

Bear in mind there are plenty of pre-'68 firearms that do not have serial numbers. Under current law they are legal to transfer.

I am not a lawyer and would like to see more on this, including case law.
Last year oregon actually tried to pass a bill that would have any pre '68 unserialized firearm illegal as well as any home made gun. I wrote to our senators and reps pointing out that people would be going to prison for granpa's shotgun hanging on the mantle. Bill didn't pass. Now there's a bill here to ban 80%ers but exempts pre '68 guns. I know they read my emails anyways. :weep:

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Re: Biden allegedly considering EA to ban illegal sales of unserialized firearms

#13 Post by Northern » Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:30 am

Mikeinmich wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:10 pm I’m not an expert on this (surprise) but I was under the impression that he couldn’t do that with an eo because of some kind of specific statutory language. ???
That’s right, Mikeinmich; generally, an eo cannot in itself authorize agency action that exceeds the scope of the agency’s actions as authorized by statute. But like another poster said, it’s still possible to order actions that aren’t authorized and just wait until legal challenges come to request a court order to stop the action.

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Re: Biden allegedly considering EA to ban illegal sales of unserialized firearms

#14 Post by Eris » Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:59 am

Am I the only one who initially read "EA" in the title as the game company Electronic Arts? :oops:
88+ recreational uses of firearms
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Re: Biden allegedly considering EA to ban illegal sales of unserialized firearms

#15 Post by Bisbee » Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:17 am

I believe the EO would make it illegal to “finish” an 80% kit into a frame without either/both serializing and going to a gun store to run a background check to own a “finished” gun frame. Buy and own the 80% hunk of metal or polymer, just don’t finish it without jumping through the hoops? Meh...
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Re: Biden allegedly considering EA to ban illegal sales of unserialized firearms

#16 Post by DispositionMatrix » Thu Feb 25, 2021 8:49 am

Bisbee wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 5:17 am I believe the EO would make it illegal to “finish” an 80% kit into a frame without either/both serializing and going to a gun store to run a background check to own a “finished” gun frame. Buy and own the 80% hunk of metal or polymer, just don’t finish it without jumping through the hoops? Meh...
People have been making firearms by hand in North America since before the US was a country. The blueprints for the M1 Garand have been available publicly for decades. Suddenly, making one's own firearms is a problem.

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Re: Biden allegedly considering EA to ban illegal sales of unserialized firearms

#17 Post by Bisbee » Thu Feb 25, 2021 1:38 pm

Yup. Politicized Up Beyond All Recognition.
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Re: Biden allegedly considering EA to ban illegal sales of unserialized firearms

#18 Post by featureless » Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:21 pm

I can just see a group of strung out thugs sitting around milling their gats for the next hold up. Seeing as how that particular group tends to make the lazy choice, it does seem they'd rather steel than manufacture such a thing. But what do I know.

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Re: Biden allegedly considering EA to ban illegal sales of unserialized firearms

#19 Post by BKinzey » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:54 pm

featureless wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:21 pm I can just see a group of strung out thugs sitting around milling their gats for the next hold up. Seeing as how that particular group tends to make the lazy choice, it does seem they'd rather steel than manufacture such a thing. But what do I know.
While overall I hold your opinion I did recently see a story from the Los Angeles DA, in concert with Everytown :roll: , that stated some pretty high numbers. I also read an article some time ago about a "Known Gang Member/Felon" who was arrested for building 80% AR-15s and selling them to miscreants. IIRC he built 20 and sold 15 of them. I think he was using a Ghost Gunner CNC machine.

So it is being done but I don't know on how grand of a scale. I'm still skeptical.

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Re: Biden allegedly considering EA to ban illegal sales of unserialized firearms

#20 Post by sikacz » Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:44 pm

That sounds like it already breaks a law or even several laws.
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Re: Biden allegedly considering EA to ban illegal sales of unserialized firearms

#21 Post by NegativeApproach » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:15 am

sikacz wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:30 pm
NegativeApproach wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:23 pm So will they ban 80% lowers from being sold, even though they can literally be printed at home on a 3d printer?
I would think they would go after possession as well. Some people just want to make more criminals.
And you know they're not going to target white IT dudebros... It's going to be poc in the inner city.

As if we need more evidence that gun control is racist.

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Re: Biden allegedly considering EA to ban illegal sales of unserialized firearms

#22 Post by NegativeApproach » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:17 am

BKinzey wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:54 pm
featureless wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:21 pm I can just see a group of strung out thugs sitting around milling their gats for the next hold up. Seeing as how that particular group tends to make the lazy choice, it does seem they'd rather steel than manufacture such a thing. But what do I know.
While overall I hold your opinion I did recently see a story from the Los Angeles DA, in concert with Everytown :roll: , that stated some pretty high numbers. I also read an article some time ago about a "Known Gang Member/Felon" who was arrested for building 80% AR-15s and selling them to miscreants. IIRC he built 20 and sold 15 of them. I think he was using a Ghost Gunner CNC machine.

So it is being done but I don't know on how grand of a scale. I'm still skeptical.
So we should make things "more illegaller", for what purpose? If it's already illegal, and the person doing it got arrested and charged, I'd say the laws in place are working pretty well. If he had gotten arrested, but could not be charged, then maybe they'd have a point...

There are plenty of illegal things one could do that are very simple and can be done with store bought or easily accessible products.

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Re: Biden allegedly considering EA to ban illegal sales of unserialized firearms

#23 Post by sikacz » Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:21 am

NegativeApproach wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 9:15 am
sikacz wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:30 pm
NegativeApproach wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:23 pm So will they ban 80% lowers from being sold, even though they can literally be printed at home on a 3d printer?
I would think they would go after possession as well. Some people just want to make more criminals.
And you know they're not going to target white IT dudebros... It's going to be poc in the inner city.

As if we need more evidence that gun control is racist.
Unfortunately true.
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Re: Biden allegedly considering EA to ban illegal sales of unserialized firearms

#24 Post by BillyRaysMullet » Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:47 pm

Here's what I've gathered in my few years:

A home builder is not required to put a S/N on a firearm they built themselves.

A home builder can sell their home built firearms, however if the firearm was built with intent to sell and you don't have a manufacturing license, that's a problem. Intent is a hard thing to prove, but modern courts tend to side with the opinion of enforcement agencies.

There is no law on federal books requiring non NFA firearms made by home builders to be serialized prior to being sold, however the ATF frowns on it regardless.

It's just easier on the home builder to put their name and a SN on the receiver. Legal battles are expensive and best left to those who have the pockets to fund them.

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Re: Biden allegedly considering EA to ban illegal sales of unserialized firearms

#25 Post by sikacz » Sun Feb 28, 2021 5:00 pm

BillyRaysMullet wrote: Sun Feb 28, 2021 4:47 pm Here's what I've gathered in my few years:

A home builder is not required to put a S/N on a firearm they built themselves.

A home builder can sell their home built firearms, however if the firearm was built with intent to sell and you don't have a manufacturing license, that's a problem. Intent is a hard thing to prove, but modern courts tend to side with the opinion of enforcement agencies.

There is no law on federal books requiring non NFA firearms made by home builders to be serialized prior to being sold, however the ATF frowns on it regardless.

It's just easier on the home builder to put their name and a SN on the receiver. Legal battles are expensive and best left to those who have the pockets to fund them.
Since it's hard to prove when a home built firearm was made, it won't make any difference when one puts a serial number on the receiver.
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