Re: There are guns are made for home defense and guns made for war...

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Actually, my take on Trumpists is that they are cowards. The moment the national guard takes to the streets, their conflicted ideas of homeland, flag, respect for power and authority will kick in. They will flounder and eventually lay down arms.

Leftists, on the other hand, always know they will be shot on sight. There is no confusion when they take up arms and so no shortage of conviction.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

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Bisbee wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:56 pm Actually, my take on Trumpists is that they are cowards. The moment the national guard takes to the streets, their conflicted ideas of homeland, flag, respect for power and authority will kick in. They will flounder and eventually lay down arms.

Leftists, on the other hand, always know they will be shot on sight. There is no confusion when they take up arms and so no shortage of conviction.
Those of us who are Jewish, from "devout" Agnostics like me, to ultra Torah Orthodox, have that message drilled into us from a very early age. Sooner or later, they will (try) to shoot us down.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: There are guns are made for home defense and guns made for war...

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YankeeTarheel wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:58 pm
Bisbee wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:56 pm Actually, my take on Trumpists is that they are cowards. The moment the national guard takes to the streets, their conflicted ideas of homeland, flag, respect for power and authority will kick in. They will flounder and eventually lay down arms.

Leftists, on the other hand, always know they will be shot on sight. There is no confusion when they take up arms and so no shortage of conviction.
Those of us who are Jewish, from "devout" Agnostics like me, to ultra Torah Orthodox, have that message drilled into us from a very early age. Sooner or later, they will (try) to shoot us down.
Well, at least you'll have a bunch of us by your side should such times come again.

Re: There are guns are made for home defense and guns made for war...

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featureless wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:03 pm
YankeeTarheel wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:58 pm
Bisbee wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:56 pm Actually, my take on Trumpists is that they are cowards. The moment the national guard takes to the streets, their conflicted ideas of homeland, flag, respect for power and authority will kick in. They will flounder and eventually lay down arms.

Leftists, on the other hand, always know they will be shot on sight. There is no confusion when they take up arms and so no shortage of conviction.
Those of us who are Jewish, from "devout" Agnostics like me, to ultra Torah Orthodox, have that message drilled into us from a very early age. Sooner or later, they will (try) to shoot us down.
Well, at least you'll have a bunch of us by your side should such times come again.
:beer2: :thumbup:
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: There are guns are made for home defense and guns made for war...

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YankeeTarheel wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:11 pm... I expect a 30-30, a 30-06, and a .308 are all far more lethal than a .223 as well.
I was at the range recently with a friend who has an AR10 -- I had my chronograph with me because I was testing some handloads for my socially permissible wood-stocked bolt-action hinged-floorplate-magazine hunting rifle -- anyway, stuck it on his rifle just out of curiosity -- 2825 FPS with a 150 gr bullet.

Looking at some basic numbers in my Hornaday reloading book, a 55 gr. bullet hitting 3250 fps at the muzzle, has 1290 ft-lbs at the muzzle, 992 ft-lbs at 100yds, and 413 ft-lbs at 400 yds, 298 at 500 yds. The 150 grain .308 with the worst BC for an FMJ (I don't have any numbers for the Russian bullet his ammo used, but it was FMJ so I just picked the bullet in the book with the lowest BC), has 2658 ft-lbs at the muzzle (using the measured 2825 FPS muzzle velocity), 2246 ft-lbs at 100 yds, and 1302 ft-lbs at 400 yds, 1070 at 500 yds. Bullet drop is comparable (the .308 drops 30.7" at 400 yds and the 223 drops 27.4"; at 500 yds it is .308: 56.9" and .223: 53.9"). I know raw energy numbers aren't the whole story, but that .308 packs some real punch.

For 30-06, the same bullet I based my assumptions on for the .308, my book shows a max velocity of 3000 FPS which works out to be about 340 extra foot pounds at the muzzle over the .308, and 200 ft-lbs extra at 500 yds.

For 30-30, a 150 gr roundnose with a BC of 0.186, book shows max velocity of 2300 FPS. The 30-30 still beats the .223 on energy (1762 ft=lbs at muzzle, 311 ft-lbs at 500 yds) but the .223 kicks some 30-30 butt on bullet drop -- the 30-30 drops 75.5" at 400 yds and 149.7" at 500yds. At 300 yds, the 30-30's 31.1" drop is basically the same as what a .223 or .308 drops at 400 yds.

Sorry -- probably dull -- but it was fun for me.

Re: There are guns are made for home defense and guns made for war...

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senorgrand wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:33 pm I still think the New Deal never passes without 2A and the Bonus Army camping in the shadow of the White House.

Those in power were (perhaps rightly) concerned of an armed 1917-style revolution.
I suspect you are correct, and Gore Vidal, who had the personal experience of having the car he was riding in with his Senator relative _stoned_ by people in the bonus army as they drove to capital hill, certainly thought so. Here is the raw tape of his interview for the PBS documentary about the Great Depression -- the stoning anecdote starts at about 2 minutes in, but the leadup is worth it and short. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E76ArLbSABA

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awshoot wrote: Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:43 pm
YankeeTarheel wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:11 pm... I expect a 30-30, a 30-06, and a .308 are all far more lethal than a .223 as well.
I was at the range recently with a friend who has an AR10 -- I had my chronograph with me because I was testing some handloads for my socially permissible wood-stocked bolt-action hinged-floorplate-magazine hunting rifle -- anyway, stuck it on his rifle just out of curiosity -- 2825 FPS with a 150 gr bullet.

Looking at some basic numbers in my Hornaday reloading book, a 55 gr. bullet hitting 3250 fps at the muzzle, has 1290 ft-lbs at the muzzle, 992 ft-lbs at 100yds, and 413 ft-lbs at 400 yds, 298 at 500 yds. The 150 grain .308 with the worst BC for an FMJ (I don't have any numbers for the Russian bullet his ammo used, but it was FMJ so I just picked the bullet in the book with the lowest BC), has 2658 ft-lbs at the muzzle (using the measured 2825 FPS muzzle velocity), 2246 ft-lbs at 100 yds, and 1302 ft-lbs at 400 yds, 1070 at 500 yds. Bullet drop is comparable (the .308 drops 30.7" at 400 yds and the 223 drops 27.4"; at 500 yds it is .308: 56.9" and .223: 53.9"). I know raw energy numbers aren't the whole story, but that .308 packs some real punch.

For 30-06, the same bullet I based my assumptions on for the .308, my book shows a max velocity of 3000 FPS which works out to be about 340 extra foot pounds at the muzzle over the .308, and 200 ft-lbs extra at 500 yds.

For 30-30, a 150 gr roundnose with a BC of 0.186, book shows max velocity of 2300 FPS. The 30-30 still beats the .223 on energy (1762 ft=lbs at muzzle, 311 ft-lbs at 500 yds) but the .223 kicks some 30-30 butt on bullet drop -- the 30-30 drops 75.5" at 400 yds and 149.7" at 500yds. At 300 yds, the 30-30's 31.1" drop is basically the same as what a .223 or .308 drops at 400 yds.

Sorry -- probably dull -- but it was fun for me.
I don't think it's dull at all. Of course, bullet drop is pretty much basic physics. How far it drops is always--timewise--the same: just about 32feet per second squared. No matter how fast it goes, the time component for bullet drop is controlled by, well, gravity. How far it goes is a measure of its velocity, which slows from friction.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: There are guns are made for home defense and guns made for war...

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YankeeTarheel wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:19 pm When the shit hits the fan, everything you know, and everything I know, will be wrong.
I think only if a person chooses not to acknowledge thousands of years of political and military history and also chooses to believe that same history is irrelevant. Lather rinse repeat; or not. "The Great Experiment" will indeed fail unless every citizen, not just the "organized militia", has the means and the will to insure its success; the very same will and the very same means that have insured its success for over 200 years. At no time in our history has an attack on our Constitution been so insidiously executed the will and resolve of "The People" been thus tested.

I've heard a lot of people invoke Orwell over the past few years when, in fact, they should be more concerned about Huxley's vision of the future. The only thing I can think of that could be worse than having one's liberty taken away with a fight and a rictus of defiance is giving one's liberty away with a handshake and a smile.

Re: There are guns are made for home defense and guns made for war...

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awshoot wrote: Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:43 pm
YankeeTarheel wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:11 pm... I expect a 30-30, a 30-06, and a .308 are all far more lethal than a .223 as well.
I was at the range recently with a friend who has an AR10 -- I had my chronograph with me because I was testing some handloads for my socially permissible wood-stocked bolt-action hinged-floorplate-magazine hunting rifle -- anyway, stuck it on his rifle just out of curiosity -- 2825 FPS with a 150 gr bullet.

Looking at some basic numbers in my Hornaday reloading book, a 55 gr. bullet hitting 3250 fps at the muzzle, has 1290 ft-lbs at the muzzle, 992 ft-lbs at 100yds, and 413 ft-lbs at 400 yds, 298 at 500 yds. The 150 grain .308 with the worst BC for an FMJ (I don't have any numbers for the Russian bullet his ammo used, but it was FMJ so I just picked the bullet in the book with the lowest BC), has 2658 ft-lbs at the muzzle (using the measured 2825 FPS muzzle velocity), 2246 ft-lbs at 100 yds, and 1302 ft-lbs at 400 yds, 1070 at 500 yds. Bullet drop is comparable (the .308 drops 30.7" at 400 yds and the 223 drops 27.4"; at 500 yds it is .308: 56.9" and .223: 53.9"). I know raw energy numbers aren't the whole story, but that .308 packs some real punch.

For 30-06, the same bullet I based my assumptions on for the .308, my book shows a max velocity of 3000 FPS which works out to be about 340 extra foot pounds at the muzzle over the .308, and 200 ft-lbs extra at 500 yds.

For 30-30, a 150 gr roundnose with a BC of 0.186, book shows max velocity of 2300 FPS. The 30-30 still beats the .223 on energy (1762 ft=lbs at muzzle, 311 ft-lbs at 500 yds) but the .223 kicks some 30-30 butt on bullet drop -- the 30-30 drops 75.5" at 400 yds and 149.7" at 500yds. At 300 yds, the 30-30's 31.1" drop is basically the same as what a .223 or .308 drops at 400 yds.

Sorry -- probably dull -- but it was fun for me.
Not dull, and useful for hunters and military folks that have different rules of engagement than armed civilians in a self defense situation. Since the rules of self defense require engagement a couple of orders of magnitude closer than 400 yards. the external ballistics are irrelevant. All three calibers are 'more than lethal enough'. That allows us to move back to weight, familiarity, ergonomics, recoil, and the ability to be ready for the follow-up shots. Speaking as a rifle shooter with time in M16s as well as in my .308 AR-10, .223/5.56 AR-15, .30-06 Garand, and black powder long rifle, the AR15 wins by a landslide.

The only downside is the optics of the gun should a post-shoot trial be necessary, and that a rifle with a pistol grip might be more difficult to retain should the fight move into hand to hand combat range.

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YankeeTarheel wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:19 pm
Sun-Tzu wrote: Know yourself and your enemy and you need not fear the results of a thousand battles.
Know yourself and not your enemy and you will lose as often as you win.
Know neither yourself nor your enemy and you will always be defeated.
.

I see, with grim reluctance, insurrection rising in America from multiple sources. I see it from Trumpists if he's impeached, I see it from them now. I see it from the Left in opposition, especially if Trump "suspends" the Constitution.
ey
I guess the hardest and most cynical way is this: When the shit hits the fan, everything you know, and everything I know, will be wrong.
I don't think t voters will insurrect because they're mostly cowards. That's why they need a bully in chief. I think all but the most numb will accept the findings of the various investigations into money laundering. Turns out that stuff is illegal. Who knew? Not them, apparently. They'll just sit and watch fox and hurl epithets at the tv.

Democracy is a messy business, so just fasten your seat belt. Turbulence ahead, but we'll arrive on schedule.

CDFingers
Crazy cat peekin' through a lace bandana
like a one-eyed Cheshire, like a diamond-eyed Jack

Re: There are guns are made for home defense and guns made for war...

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Yeah, my concern is the plane was silently taken hostage a while back and we might all end up in some Banana Republic somewhere... just to expand on that analogy.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: There are guns are made for home defense and guns made for war...

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CDFingers wrote: Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:09 am
YankeeTarheel wrote: Mon Mar 19, 2018 8:19 pm
Sun-Tzu wrote: Know yourself and your enemy and you need not fear the results of a thousand battles.
Know yourself and not your enemy and you will lose as often as you win.
Know neither yourself nor your enemy and you will always be defeated.
.

I see, with grim reluctance, insurrection rising in America from multiple sources. I see it from Trumpists if he's impeached, I see it from them now. I see it from the Left in opposition, especially if Trump "suspends" the Constitution.
ey
I guess the hardest and most cynical way is this: When the shit hits the fan, everything you know, and everything I know, will be wrong.
I don't think t voters will insurrect because they're mostly cowards. That's why they need a bully in chief. I think all but the most numb will accept the findings of the various investigations into money laundering. Turns out that stuff is illegal. Who knew? Not them, apparently. They'll just sit and watch fox and hurl epithets at the tv.

Democracy is a messy business, so just fasten your seat belt. Turbulence ahead, but we'll arrive on schedule.

CDFingers
If I was a praying man, and not a "devout" Agnostic (as my wife calls me), I'd be praying night and day that you are right!
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: There are guns are made for home defense and guns made for war...

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I find Agnostics to be curious and intelligent as a group. Aren't you curious about developments as they unfurl? -Rather than fixating on and concerned about one specific outcome out of many, many different possibilities?

Ah, maybe that's what your wife meant by "devout".

;-) J/K.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: There are guns are made for home defense and guns made for war...

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Bisbee wrote: Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:31 pm I find Agnostics to be curious and intelligent as a group. Aren't you curious about developments as they unfurl? -Rather than fixating on and concerned about one specific outcome out of many, many different possibilities?

Ah, maybe that's what your wife meant by "devout".

;-) J/K.
You may be just kidding but don't worry: I'm not offended, because frankly, I don't know WTF you're talking about! :lol:

(Though, don't laugh, I do consider myself both curious and fairly intelligent)
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: There are guns are made for home defense and guns made for war...

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I see that I have to put in my $0.02 worth on this thread.

First of all the idea that the 2nd Amendment was put in the constitution for the sole reason of enabling American citizens to fight tyranny is NRA propaganda. The NRA cherry picks history to suit its own self interests. US presidents ever since Lyndon Johnson and possibly before him, have been on an authoritarian bent and I haven't seen a militia stage a coup and take over the government and install a regime whether on the right or left. Today the US is the closest it's ever been to a totalitarian form of government and the insurrectionists on the right who complained about the black tyrant in the white house are silent about the white military dictator in the white house today. Prior to the American Civil War the only insurrection that anyone worried about was a slave revolt and the only tyrants that anyone worried about were the northern abolitionists. In a way we are still at that level.

Philosophically speaking you have to consider authority and what authority is. What it isn't is a hierarchy of those who command and those who obey. It is a hierarchy, however, if those who command and those who obey remain the same people and their offspring forever, that hierarchy can only be described as tyrannical, dictatorial, and authoritarian. In a true democratic representative republic, authority will be in a dynamic state with those who command and those who obey constantly changing. Obviously that isn't true today and may never have been true. So why haven't we seen an insurrection to overthrow tyranny? Our corporate masters have enabled a small group of men and women to monopolize political power for their own self interests. Those in power always do whatever it takes to stay in power. Today our corporate masters have figured out how to keep those in power do their bidding without the use of violence. Those in power come up with excuses to justify their hold on power while pacifying the populace.

Resistance is futile. However there are ways to resist without violence. So firearm ownership becomes a method of self-defense. We should each be allowed to possess our weapon of choice within reason.
Last edited by harriss on Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: There are guns are made for home defense and guns made for war...

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harriss wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:16 pm I see that I have to put in my $0.02 worth on this thread.

First of all the idea that the 2nd Amendment was put in the constitution for the sole reason of enabling American citizens to fight tyranny is NRA propaganda.
Please visit here: viewtopic.php?f=40&t=22897
And spend some quality time with this: https://www.amazon.com/The-Origin-Secon ... 0962366439
Or at least this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0962366471/re ... 4715413357

If you do, you'll find that it's actually not NRA propaganda. It's actually securely 'welded' to the right of personal protection and part of the 'black letter' founding principles.
harriss wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:16 pmThe NRA cherry picks history to suit its own self interests. US presidents ever since Lyndon Johnson and possibly before him, have been on an authoritarian bent and I haven't seen a militia stage a coup and take over the government and install a regime whether on the right or left. Today the US is the closest it's ever been to a totalitarian form of government and the insurrectionists on the right who complained about the black tyrant in the white house are silent about the white military dictator in the white house today. Prior to the American Civil War the only insurrection that anyone worried about was a slave revolt and the only tyrants that anyone worried about were the northern abolitionists. In a way we are still at that level.
It doesn't have to be 'totalitarian' - it just has to violate our civil rights. And for those that haven't been paying attention, so many pieces of our civil rights are falling off this airplane that the hijackers might not get to Cuba after all.
harriss wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:16 pmResistance is futile.
Nope. Resistance is the only way we keep our civil rights.
harriss wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:16 pm However there are ways to resist without violence.
Absolutely - and we should do that right up to the point that that no longer works.
harriss wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:16 pm So firearm ownership becomes a method of self-defense.
Always have been.
harriss wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:16 pm We should each be allowed to possess our weapon of choice within reason.
Who's reason? The folks stealing our civil rights? They'd like that.

Re: There are guns are made for home defense and guns made for war...

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AndyH wrote: Sun Mar 25, 2018 2:25 pm
harriss wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:16 pm I see that I have to put in my $0.02 worth on this thread.

First of all the idea that the 2nd Amendment was put in the constitution for the sole reason of enabling American citizens to fight tyranny is NRA propaganda.
Please visit here: viewtopic.php?f=40&t=22897
And spend some quality time with this: https://www.amazon.com/The-Origin-Secon ... 0962366439
Or at least this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0962366471/re ... 4715413357

If you do, you'll find that it's actually not NRA propaganda. It's actually securely 'welded' to the right of personal protection and part of the 'black letter' founding principles.
harriss wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:16 pmThe NRA cherry picks history to suit its own self interests. US presidents ever since Lyndon Johnson and possibly before him, have been on an authoritarian bent and I haven't seen a militia stage a coup and take over the government and install a regime whether on the right or left. Today the US is the closest it's ever been to a totalitarian form of government and the insurrectionists on the right who complained about the black tyrant in the white house are silent about the white military dictator in the white house today. Prior to the American Civil War the only insurrection that anyone worried about was a slave revolt and the only tyrants that anyone worried about were the northern abolitionists. In a way we are still at that level.
It doesn't have to be 'totalitarian' - it just has to violate our civil rights. And for those that haven't been paying attention, so many pieces of our civil rights are falling off this airplane that the hijackers might not get to Cuba after all.
harriss wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:16 pmResistance is futile.
Nope. Resistance is the only way we keep our civil rights.
harriss wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:16 pm However there are ways to resist without violence.
Absolutely - and we should do that right up to the point that that no longer works.
harriss wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:16 pm So firearm ownership becomes a method of self-defense.
Always have been.
harriss wrote: Sat Mar 24, 2018 9:16 pm We should each be allowed to possess our weapon of choice within reason.
Who's reason? The folks stealing our civil rights? They'd like that.
Who's reason? I guess it's your reason too. If you want an Abram's tank, mortars, grenades, flamethrowers, heavy artillery, nukes. By all means stockpile them. But you won't find me anywhere near your back yard.

I absolutely agree that self-defense in regards to a tyrannical despot who is singlehandedly taking away our rights is warranted. However, we haven't reached that point yet. And just how will you get close to that tyrannical despot if he does begin to singlehandedly take away your's and my rights to defend those rights? Good luck with that.

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