Proposed Seattle law: $10,000 fine if stolen gun is used in crime

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We're gonna need a bigger safe.

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/mayor- ... /756174440

Money shot: if your gun is stolen and used in a crime, you could be fined up to $10,000. No indication whether having and using a good safe would be a factor in sentencing. In any case, you are in court with plenty of legal fees.

No doubt discouraging gun ownership though FUD is a large part of the motivation for this. I can't imagine this won't pass the city council, probably unanimously.
The mayor’s office says that it was developed after speaking with gun owners, safety advocates, and community members.
Yeah, I'll bet they incorporated a lot of suggestions from "gun owners." Probably beginning and ending with ex-cop and recently retired council member Tim Burgess, author of the gun and ammo tax law that drove half the remaining gun business out of the city a couple of years ago.

This story is a bit stale. Did I miss previous discussion of it?
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Re: Proposed Seattle law: $10,000 fine if stolen gun is used in crime

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Buck13 wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:58 am We're gonna need a bigger safe.

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/mayor- ... /756174440

Money shot: if your gun is stolen and used in a crime, you could be fined up to $10,000. No indication whether having and using a good safe would be a factor in sentencing. In any case, you are in court with plenty of legal fees.

No doubt discouraging gun ownership though FUD is a large part of the motivation for this. I can't imagine this won't pass the city council, probably unanimously.
The mayor’s office says that it was developed after speaking with gun owners, safety advocates, and community members.
Yeah, I'll bet they incorporated a lot of suggestions from "gun owners." Probably beginning and ending with ex-cop and recently retired council member Tim Burgess, author of the gun and ammo tax law that drove half the remaining gun business out of the city a couple of years ago.

This story is a bit stale. Did I miss previous discussion of it?
Another one very likely to end up in court. Don't they have any other city issues that are more pressing than this one?
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Proposed Seattle law: $10,000 fine if stolen gun is used in crime

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If you actually READ the article, it's clear that if you take reasonable precautions to safeguard your guns, and if you promptly report if a gun is stolen or missing, you will not be liable. But if you just leave it loaded in your night stand and it's taken by a minor or stolen and used in a crime, then you're in the deep shit.
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: Proposed Seattle law: $10,000 fine if stolen gun is used in crime

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Buck13 wrote:We're gonna need a bigger safe.

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/mayor- ... /756174440

Money shot: if your gun is stolen and used in a crime, you could be fined up to $10,000. No indication whether having and using a good safe would be a factor in sentencing. In any case, you are in court with plenty of legal fees.

No doubt discouraging gun ownership though FUD is a large part of the motivation for this. I can't imagine this won't pass the city council, probably unanimously.
The mayor’s office says that it was developed after speaking with gun owners, safety advocates, and community members.
Yeah, I'll bet they incorporated a lot of suggestions from "gun owners." Probably beginning and ending with ex-cop and recently retired council member Tim Burgess, author of the gun and ammo tax law that drove half the remaining gun business out of the city a couple of years ago.

This story is a bit stale. Did I miss previous discussion of it?
Despite the alleged requirements for being found in violation of the proposed ordinance, it likely would be weaponized against gun owners. The more people they can fine the better.
The proposal comes about three years after the last Seattle gun control measure — a gun tax. Seattle implemented a $25 fee on each firearm sold in the city. It also imposed a 5 cent per round tax. The council estimated the city would take in between $300,000 and $500,000 in gun-tax revenue. That money was slated for gun-violence prevention programs.

But gun stores reacted by dropping firearm sales, referring customers to their out-of-Seattle locations, or just simply moving out of town. Seattle has been largely silent on how much gun tax revenue it has received. According to Mayor Durkan’s office, by the end of 2018, the city will have taken in $200,000 — far less than the lower estimate of $300,000 annually.
They're going to get that money from gun owners one way or another.
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Re: Proposed Seattle law: $10,000 fine if stolen gun is used in crime

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YankeeTarheel wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:07 pm If you actually READ the article, it's clear that if you take reasonable precautions to safeguard your guns, and if you promptly report if a gun is stolen or missing, you will not be liable. But if you just leave it loaded in your night stand and it's taken by a minor or stolen and used in a crime, then you're in the deep shit.
Read the article? Read ... the ... article. Huh. I never thought of that? :sarcasm:

OK, I'll admit that I first commented without reading the article - I went for the cheap joke instead of the insightful comment. Allow me to try and make up for that.

The proposals points are given as:
1 Safe storage: Guns should be stored in a locked container, and rendered as unusable to any person other than the owner or authorized user.
2 Unauthorized access prevention: It will be a civil infraction if a minor, at-risk, or prohibited person obtains a firearm when the owner should have reasonably known they would have access to it.
3 Violation of the safe-storage law, or the unauthorized access regulation could result in a fine between $500 and $1,000.
4 If a prohibited or at-risk person, or a minor obtains a firearm and uses it to commit a crime, injure or kill someone (including themselves), the gun owner could be fined up to $10,000.
5 If a civil case results from a minor, at-risk, or prohibited person accessing a gun, it will be “prima facie evidence” — meaning fact unless proven otherwise — that the owner is negligent.
6 The new gun law will go into effect 180 days after it passes and Mayor Durkan signs it.
7 The chief of police will have one year to conduct a survey to determine levels of compliance.
8 The city auditor will monitor the law’s influence on gun injuries and deaths in Seattle.
Point 1, I think, needs to make clear that a firearm designated for home defense may be kept loaded and accessible while the gun owner is home. Also, the "rendered as unusable to any person other than the owner" needs to go entirely, since there is no "smart gun" technology that can reliably do that.

Points 2 and 3 seem good to me.

Point 4 seems excessive in it's fine, and I also don't like it that it punishes people for someone committing suicide, which is a human right, not a crime.

Point 5 has to go, as it inverts the long standing tradition of "innocent until proven guilty". I know that standard doesn't always apply in civil cases, but I object to that as well. It should be a universal standard and I object to any attempt to further undermine it.

Points 6, 7, and 8 are fine, though I somehow doubt they will really care about the auditors report. It's not like they are going to repeal the law if the auditor comes back and says it had no effect or a negative effect.
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Re: Proposed Seattle law: $10,000 fine if stolen gun is used in crime

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Eris wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:34 pm
YankeeTarheel wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:07 pm If you actually READ the article, it's clear that if you take reasonable precautions to safeguard your guns, and if you promptly report if a gun is stolen or missing, you will not be liable. But if you just leave it loaded in your night stand and it's taken by a minor or stolen and used in a crime, then you're in the deep shit.
Read the article? Read ... the ... article. Huh. I never thought of that? :sarcasm:

OK, I'll admit that I first commented without reading the article - I went for the cheap joke instead of the insightful comment. Allow me to try and make up for that.

The proposals points are given as:
1 Safe storage: Guns should be stored in a locked container, and rendered as unusable to any person other than the owner or authorized user.
2 Unauthorized access prevention: It will be a civil infraction if a minor, at-risk, or prohibited person obtains a firearm when the owner should have reasonably known they would have access to it.
3 Violation of the safe-storage law, or the unauthorized access regulation could result in a fine between $500 and $1,000.
4 If a prohibited or at-risk person, or a minor obtains a firearm and uses it to commit a crime, injure or kill someone (including themselves), the gun owner could be fined up to $10,000.
5 If a civil case results from a minor, at-risk, or prohibited person accessing a gun, it will be “prima facie evidence” — meaning fact unless proven otherwise — that the owner is negligent.
6 The new gun law will go into effect 180 days after it passes and Mayor Durkan signs it.
7 The chief of police will have one year to conduct a survey to determine levels of compliance.
8 The city auditor will monitor the law’s influence on gun injuries and deaths in Seattle.
Point 1, I think, needs to make clear that a firearm designated for home defense may be kept loaded and accessible while the gun owner is home. Also, the "rendered as unusable to any person other than the owner" needs to go entirely, since there is no "smart gun" technology that can reliably do that.

Points 2 and 3 seem good to me.

Point 4 seems excessive in it's fine, and I also don't like it that it punishes people for someone committing suicide, which is a human right, not a crime.

Point 5 has to go, as it inverts the long standing tradition of "innocent until proven guilty". I know that standard doesn't always apply in civil cases, but I object to that as well. It should be a universal standard and I object to any attempt to further undermine it.

Points 6, 7, and 8 are fine, though I somehow doubt they will really care about the auditors report. It's not like they are going to repeal the law if the auditor comes back and says it had no effect or a negative effect.
You make good points. (See? Reading IS fundamental! :D :yahoo: :D :smart: :roflmao: )
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Re: Proposed Seattle law: $10,000 fine if stolen gun is used in crime

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Eris wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:34 pm
YankeeTarheel wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:07 pm If you actually READ the article, it's clear that if you take reasonable precautions to safeguard your guns, and if you promptly report if a gun is stolen or missing, you will not be liable. But if you just leave it loaded in your night stand and it's taken by a minor or stolen and used in a crime, then you're in the deep shit.
Read the article? Read ... the ... article. Huh. I never thought of that? :sarcasm:

OK, I'll admit that I first commented without reading the article - I went for the cheap joke instead of the insightful comment. Allow me to try and make up for that.

The proposals points are given as:
1 Safe storage: Guns should be stored in a locked container, and rendered as unusable to any person other than the owner or authorized user.
2 Unauthorized access prevention: It will be a civil infraction if a minor, at-risk, or prohibited person obtains a firearm when the owner should have reasonably known they would have access to it.
3 Violation of the safe-storage law, or the unauthorized access regulation could result in a fine between $500 and $1,000.
4 If a prohibited or at-risk person, or a minor obtains a firearm and uses it to commit a crime, injure or kill someone (including themselves), the gun owner could be fined up to $10,000.
5 If a civil case results from a minor, at-risk, or prohibited person accessing a gun, it will be “prima facie evidence” — meaning fact unless proven otherwise — that the owner is negligent.
6 The new gun law will go into effect 180 days after it passes and Mayor Durkan signs it.
7 The chief of police will have one year to conduct a survey to determine levels of compliance.
8 The city auditor will monitor the law’s influence on gun injuries and deaths in Seattle.
Point 1, I think, needs to make clear that a firearm designated for home defense may be kept loaded and accessible while the gun owner is home. Also, the "rendered as unusable to any person other than the owner" needs to go entirely, since there is no "smart gun" technology that can reliably do that.

Points 2 and 3 seem good to me.

Point 4 seems excessive in it's fine, and I also don't like it that it punishes people for someone committing suicide, which is a human right, not a crime.

Point 5 has to go, as it inverts the long standing tradition of "innocent until proven guilty". I know that standard doesn't always apply in civil cases, but I object to that as well. It should be a universal standard and I object to any attempt to further undermine it.

Points 6, 7, and 8 are fine, though I somehow doubt they will really care about the auditors report. It's not like they are going to repeal the law if the auditor comes back and says it had no effect or a negative effect.
I have problems with both #1 and #3 (and, by extension, #4 and #5). First, how do you render the gun unusable to anyone but the owner or other authorized user, which is a requirement in addition to locking it in a container? Do I have to disassemble it and store some parts in a different place? Maybe even off-premises? How else do I render it unusable? Is this code for so-called smart guns?

Also, if it's in my locked, alarmed home that has multiple security measures to prevent and discourage unauthorized entry, why should I be more liable than if I have no home security but stick my gun in some stupid cheap little lock box that itself is easily stolen and/or pried open? Why can't my home count as a locked container, just as I can put a gun in a locked hard-sided piece of luggage with all my clothes and other stuff when I fly, rather than in a locked container in an unlocked suitcase? If it's behind a lock, why should the size of the container or the presence of other things in that container matter? Why doesn't my house count if it is at least as secure as one of the commonly used cheap lock boxes?

How secure does a locked container have to be to remove my liability? Is this something that gets adjudicated on a case-by-case basis, with no way for the gun owner to know if he's done enough to secure his firearm until he's found either liable or not? If someone comes equipped well enough to break into a well-secured home, might they not also be prepared to get into a locked container? And given that if someone illegally breaks into my secured home they might also break into, or steal my locked container and access the gun, why should I be liable in one case and not another, for the illegal actions of a criminal of whom I'm the victim?

Yes, if you have children or other people in your home who shouldn't have access to your guns, then you should be required to keep your guns secured in some form of supplemental limited access storage. But if you don't, having them in your secured home should be sufficient to overcome such liability. Otherwise this is just a law that has no real purpose other than to add restrictions and liability onto gun owners.

Oh, and #7 is just stupid, since, if simply failing to store a gun properly, even if no one accesses it, is a crime, honestly answering a survey is potentially admitting to a crime.

Re: Proposed Seattle law: $10,000 fine if stolen gun is used in crime

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Evo1 wrote: Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:12 pm
How secure does a locked container have to be to remove my liability?
This is my big question! I have an inexpensive gun safe (safe, not locking cabinet). If I have my guns in it, I should be free and clear IMHO. I pretty much agree with what others have said about the other points. So how can I determine what meets the requirements. Any device can be broken into. This law would need to do more to spell out when enough effort will satisfy this law.
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Re: Proposed Seattle law: $10,000 fine if stolen gun is used in crime

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Punishing the law abiding victims now. How long until they make all law abiding gun owners wear yellow arm bands with black gun silhouettes so we can be publicly reviled?

If you are killed by the thief, will they levy against your estate?
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Re: Proposed Seattle law: $10,000 fine if stolen gun is used in crime

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Seattle lawmakers unanimously approve mandatory gun lock plan
The Council, composed of eight Democrats and one Socialist, approved Mayor Jenny Durkin’s proposed city ordinance this week without dissent. The measure mandates firearm storage and penalizes those who do not report missing guns to police.

“Today, we passed modest legislation requiring all gun owners to lock-up their firearms when it is out of the owner’s immediate possession or control and imposing higher civil penalties when an owner fails to report a lost or stolen firearm,” said Durkin in a statement. “These bills will result in keeping guns out of the hands of children and others who do not have a legal right to possess a firearm and will result in less suicides and preventable gun deaths.”

Durkan’s ordinance, proposed with input from City Attorney Pete Holmes, Councilmember M. Lorena González and gun control advocates from the Brady Campaign and Everytown, sets a range of civil fines between $500 and $10,000 for those who leave unsecured firearms in areas where minors or those considered “at risk” may find them.

Re: Proposed Seattle law: $10,000 fine if stolen gun is used in crime

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DispositionMatrix wrote: Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:02 pm Seattle lawmakers unanimously approve mandatory gun lock plan
The Council, composed of eight Democrats and one Socialist, approved Mayor Jenny Durkin’s proposed city ordinance this week without dissent. The measure mandates firearm storage and penalizes those who do not report missing guns to police.

“Today, we passed modest legislation requiring all gun owners to lock-up their firearms when it is out of the owner’s immediate possession or control and imposing higher civil penalties when an owner fails to report a lost or stolen firearm,” said Durkin in a statement. “These bills will result in keeping guns out of the hands of children and others who do not have a legal right to possess a firearm and will result in less suicides and preventable gun deaths.”

Durkan’s ordinance, proposed with input from City Attorney Pete Holmes, Councilmember M. Lorena González and gun control advocates from the Brady Campaign and Everytown, sets a range of civil fines between $500 and $10,000 for those who leave unsecured firearms in areas where minors or those considered “at risk” may find them.
Some of the comments from that article suggest the law would fail over peremptory issues. If it does not, a gun owner whose safe was defeated may report the stolen guns within 24 hours, and thereby avoid fines and so on.

I think each gun owner should shoulder the responsibility of safe storage when we buy guns.

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Re: Proposed Seattle law: $10,000 fine if stolen gun is used in crime

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Safe storage should be common practice, encouraged and taugh. As for these types of laws, no. Just suppose you have all your guns locked and safely stored. You leave town and are gone a week a month or whatever time frame. A day after you leave someone breaks in, defeats your storage and security and precedes to commit a crime immediately after. Your gone and no way to know your guns were stolen and used for a crime. You come back in a week or month or whatever and you notice your house has been broken into and report the crime. Or perhaps nothing appears wrong in your house and your extremely tired and just don't check for twenty four hours. At any rate the actual crime was weeks or months ago. Now you are in violation and will be fined. Sorry, no thanks. I'll secure and encourage everyone to secure their guns when not in use or within ones controlled sphere. I'm not going to agree that it's a good idea to fine gun owners for failing to report a crime against them and punished for the crime of another. These type of laws serve only one purpose and that is to discourage gun ownership by making potential damages to the gun owner so high they are likely to give up their guns. Educate and encourage. No to this type of mandate. I don't count my guns every night. Chances are if nothing appears wrong I would only find out a gun was missing months later when I'm scheduled to clean a less used gun.
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Re: Proposed Seattle law: $10,000 fine if stolen gun is used in crime

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I agree that gun owners should secure their firearms. There are many ways to do it, safes, cabinets, lock boxes with cable locks etc. on the market in many different price ranges. If someone is unable to afford one, such as a retiree on a very limited income or low income residents, the city should help subsidize it. That's a way to test how serious the city takes it. Violations are infractions, that's below a misdemeanor. This is the ordinance, there will be more information when the police chief issues regulations for residents and police. Infractions are way down the enforcement ladder, felonies and misdemeanors out rank them.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: Proposed Seattle law: $10,000 fine if stolen gun is used in crime

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SAF, NRA sue the city of Seattle, Mayor Durkan over 'safe storage' legislation
Officials with SAF and the NRA are alleging the legislation violates Washington state’s 35-year-old preemption statute and is therefore unenforceable.

SAF officials said in their release Friday that state law prohibits cities, towns, counties and other municipalities from adopting law that exceeds state authority.

"The City of Seattle has been trying to erode state preemption almost from the moment it was passed back in 1985," SAF founder and Executive Vice President Alan M. Gottlieb said in the release. "When the city tried to ban guns from city parks facilities under former mayors Greg Nickels and Mike McGinn, SAF and NRA joined forces with other organizations to stop it, under the state preemption statute. We should not have to repeatedly remind Seattle that they are still part of Washington State and must obey the law."

Re: Proposed Seattle law: $10,000 fine if stolen gun is used in crime

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Case lost, of course. Lack of standing.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... udice.html

Judge dismisses NRA lawsuit over Seattle’s new gun-storage law
Superior Court Judge Barbara Linde issued the order in the case over the law that requires gun owners to lock up their firearms when not carrying them or controlling them.
The judge instead tossed out the suit on more technical grounds after the city contended the plaintiffs lacked standing and noted the law had yet to take effect.

“It seems the NRA jumped the gun in filing their lawsuit against this eminently reasonable legislation meant to protect children and the vulnerable,” Seattle City Attorney Pete Holmes said in a statement.

Re: Proposed Seattle law: $10,000 fine if stolen gun is used in crime

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If I may join this conversation....

A couple of co-workers and I were discussing something very similar to this about a week ago. Not this exact story, but close. I am a responsible gun owner. Some of my guns are under lock and key and others are not. Should be my choice. As for the owner being subject to any type of fee, fine, penalty or and other type of punishment is plain ridiculous. Do these same politicians want to make a car owner liable as well? Same exact thing.

Re: Proposed Seattle law: $10,000 fine if stolen gun is used in crime

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The police are supposed to protect us and ours. If the police fail to protect my property, maybe the police need to be punished. Or the people who make stupid unworkable laws.
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.
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Re: Proposed Seattle law: $10,000 fine if stolen gun is used in crime

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dougb wrote:The police are supposed to protect us and ours. If the police fail to protect my property, maybe the police need to be punished.
SCOTUS has ruled otherwise.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_ ... f_Columbia
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Re: Proposed Seattle law: $10,000 fine if stolen gun is used in crime

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BjornSig wrote:Do these same politicians want to make a car owner liable as well? Same exact thing.
As in making the owner liable if his/her car is stolen and used in a crime? With automobile ownership becoming less fashionable and many in the ruling class not having to drive anyway, I am surprised there already is not a bill.
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