Re: In Virginia, and elsewhere, gun supporters prepare to defy new laws

276
featureless wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:28 am
lurker wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:46 am very "target"-rich environment, to use an inappropriate metaphor. tell me if you think i'm off-base here, please.
felony possession of ARs with grandfathering would require registration, yes?(i don't have an issue with registration, per se, until they begin to use it to confiscate. which is just a matter of time)
gun/immigrant sanctuaries: am i the only one that thinks these are very close to the same thing? granted, one is a constitutional right, and the other is a human right, but why do we think of them as different? would anyone think of armed insurrection to defend immigrants? why are these two viewed as antithetical?
A couple of thoughts, lurker. Yes the immigrant and 2a sanctuaries are the same thing--groups of people demanding political protection of what they find to be fundamental. I'd argue the right to self defense is a human right, one which was codified in the Constitution.

I am very much opposed to registration. Also, with California's AW ban, "grandfathering" only applies to the current owner. Our kids are precluded the right, so it is, in fact, extinguished. Fuck that. Would we accept the current generation be allowed free speech but the following generation be censored? Of course not.

Registration only serves to facilitate future infringement. If LEO needs to know who owns a firearm, they need to go through the discovery process. One could argue that the right to own an unregistered firearm is every bit as much a privacy issue as the right to a safe and legal abortion. All of these rights make this country what it is. Accepting broad infringement on one creates the vehicle to do the same with the others.
High tech is wonderful, but it's like a vacuum that sucks up data and our privacy rights at the same time. UBCs are a screening tool but unless enacting legislation prohibits retention of the results or strips it of personal identification, that data can be easily saved and searched. Sure it generates stats on how many background checks were processed and approved and denied, but it's too easy for it to get included in law enforcement databases or even sold. Facebook and Cambridge Analytica are poster children of violations of our privacy rights, no matter what their "policies" say, they still do it. Data is power and Big Brother is government but also greedy corporations who want to know everything about us. I too am against registration, CA is the poster child for gun registration I hope other states avoid it.
Last edited by highdesert on Mon Dec 30, 2019 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Re: In Virginia, and elsewhere, gun supporters prepare to defy new laws

277
i suppose it would be silly to ask why the notion that we have the right, nay, the obligation to refuse to obey an unconstitutional, hence unlawful directive is not promoted more. if there was anything of value to come out of the experience of fascism in ww2, it should be that. this is not to say that there are no consequences to placing reliance on a legal system which may reach a different conclusion, and whose wheels grind exceeding slow and arguably fine. no doubt some people would take that as license to engage in self-determination, even anarchism, and the corporate media and political parties can't have that, can they?
i'm retired. what's your excuse?

Re: In Virginia, and elsewhere, gun supporters prepare to defy new laws

278
My personal opinion is that gun owners in the US have compromised and allowed infringement for decades now to get along and be "reasonable" all the time worrying that the next demand to comply with infringement would be our last. We are literally out of compromises now and the demand is that we be disarmed which is not Constitutional *but* we have established a pattern of allowing illegal infringement. It's time to say "No" now and it's gonna be painful and scary. Hopefully it won't be violent but it has that possibility.

I have taken an oath to protect and defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic....it is right up there with the oath I took to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death do us part, in front of my Family and witnesses and I do not take oaths casually.

I have the obligation to defend the Constitution and to defy illegal and un Constitutional laws and I *will not* comply with illegal laws. That's where this road of infringement has led US and I am guilty as an enabler. But now folks who want to deprive me and others of our Rights need to understand the resolve...I am obligated by oath to break un Constitutional laws. I will not comply if they are legislated into law. And if that gets me killed or imprisoned/fined then....well, I took that oath understanding that.

And there are *millions* like me in the US and it's time to say "No" now and we are. If I had my Way we'd prosecute politicians for breach of oath and remove them from office, fine and/or jail them for breach of oath. Drafting and passing un Constitutional/illegal laws should be a criminal offense.

VooDoo
Tyrants disarm the people they intend to oppress.

I am sworn to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Re: In Virginia, and elsewhere, gun supporters prepare to defy new laws

279
lurker wrote: Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:46 am gun/immigrant sanctuaries: am i the only one that thinks these are very close to the same thing? granted, one is a constitutional right, and the other is a human right, but why do we think of them as different? would anyone think of armed insurrection to defend immigrants? why are these two viewed as antithetical?
Nope, you're not alone - I think you're spot-on.

Then there's Beau. 8-)

Re: In Virginia, and elsewhere, gun supporters prepare to defy new laws

282
Fundamentally different. Immigrant sanctuary cities don't do the job of ICE for ICE. They don't threaten to create militias and dare the government to "come and take it".

Gun laws are on the books and enforced when they catch someone. They don't go door-to-door busting in everywhere (like ICE) except in Fox News fantasies. They do go to minority neighborhoods and look for any reason to bust in, though, if they ever do have a reason.
It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often groans more loudly than an empty stomach.

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Re: In Virginia, and elsewhere, gun supporters prepare to defy new laws

283
K9s wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:28 pm Fundamentally different. Immigrant sanctuary cities don't do the job of ICE for ICE. They don't threaten to create militias and dare the government to "come and take it".

Gun laws are on the books and enforced when they catch someone. They don't go door-to-door busting in everywhere (like ICE) except in Fox News fantasies. They do go to minority neighborhoods and look for any reason to bust in, though, if they ever do have a reason.
Even when they are a thousand miles outside of their jurisdiction and drunk as a skunk:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/31/nyre ... e=Homepage
An Officer Admitted Making a Racist Threat. He Still Has a Job.

More than 10,000 people signed a petition demanding the New York City officer’s ouster after he broke into a black woman’s home.

Michael J. Reynolds, a New York City police officer, landed in Nashville on a Sunday morning in July 2018, court records show. He and six other men, two of whom he later identified as New York City officers, were on what was supposed to be a three-night bachelor-party junket.
About 18 hours later, Officer Reynolds, who is white, kicked in a black woman’s door in a drunken rage, threatening her and her sons with a racist slur and obscenities.
“I’ll break every bone in your neck,” he said in a rant that included two expletives. He then fled to his nearby Airbnb rental just before the police arrived.
This month, he was sentenced to 15 days in jail and three years’ probation after pleading no contest to four misdemeanors as a result of the episode, court records show.

As of Monday, though, he remained an officer, stirring a growing backlash against the New York Police Department. More than 10,000 people signed an online petition demanding his dismissal and supporting the woman whose home he invaded, Conese Halliburton.
“Michael Reynolds is a violent and dangerous racist who has no business carrying either a badge or a gun,” her lawyer, Daniel Horwitz, said via email. “Ms. Halliburton wants the N.Y.P.D. to fire him immediately so that he can’t hurt anyone else.”

The Police Department said last week that Officer Reynolds was on “modified duty” and that the disciplinary process was awaiting the Nashville case’s conclusion. Asked about the matter again on Monday, a top department official said the process “was moving forward and questioning will take place imminently.”

Officer Reynolds, 26, apologized in court for the episode and claimed that he had no memory of it because he had been drinking heavily.
“I’m sorry,” he testified. “I made a mistake. I consumed too much alcohol.”

Edward Yarbrough, Officer Reynolds’s lawyer, said in an interview that because of the jail time, “We think his job is in jeopardy.” Mr. Yarbrough had sought a sentence that could have allowed his client to keep his job and have his record expunged in several years.
The case of Officer Reynolds is again focusing scrutiny on the pace of the Police Department’s disciplinary process. In a prominent example of how it can drag on, five years passed before Officer Daniel Pantaleo, whose use of a prohibited chokehold contributed to the 2014 death in police custody of Eric Garner, was fired and stripped of his pension benefits in August.

The police commissioner has the ultimate say over firings, but police unions typically fight such moves. Officers who are ousted sometimes sue to try to get back their jobs and benefits, as Mr. Pantaleo is doing.

Officer Reynolds’s crimes did not occur in the line of duty, nor did he cause physical injuries. But Ms. Halliburton testified that he had done significant psychological damage.

“My kids want to move,” she said at the sentencing on Dec. 6. “They don’t want to be in that house anymore. We don’t have peace. To know that you’ve been living somewhere all your life, and you don’t have that anymore, and where would you go, it’s not fair.”
In court, Ms. Halliburton, the prosecutor, the judge and his own lawyer all used the same term — terrorize — to describe what Officer Reynolds had done to her family that night.
The episode, some of which, including audio of Officer Reynolds’s ranting, was captured by a neighbor’s security cameras, began shortly after 2:30 a.m. on July 9, 2018.

At the time, Ms. Halliburton testified, she was lying in bed talking with her youngest son in her house in Nashville’s 12 South section.
“I could hear, like, someone, like, yelling,” she said.
Looking out a window, her son saw a man who turned out to be Officer Reynolds in the yard. Ms. Halliburton called 911. While she was on the phone, she said, she heard “like a boom, boom, boom.”
“It sounds like he’s trying to come in my house,” she recalled telling the 911 operator.
Moments later, she said, Officer Reynolds was inside. Her two dogs ran to protect her, barking and biting at his shorts. He tried to fight them off.
“He just kept coming down the hallway,” she said.
Ms. Halliburton said that her two eldest sons, who were 17 and 20 at the time, tried to stop him from coming any farther into the house. He did not budge.
“He was in the house for, like, seven, eight minutes,” Ms. Halliburton testified.
It was during this time that security cameras captured Officer Reynolds screaming a racist slur at Ms. Halliburton and her family and threatening them with violence.
He left, she said, after appearing to comprehend that the police were coming.

When officers arrived, she described the intruder to them and suggested they talk to the men staying at the Airbnb two doors away.

Before storming into Ms. Halliburton’s house, Officer Reynolds testified, he and his friends had been drinking in Nashville’s Lower Broadway area. He said he did not know how much alcohol he had consumed.
The only thing he remembered, he testified, was identifying himself as a police officer when speaking to a Nashville officer who answered Ms. Halliburton’s call. He said he learned about what he had done from his friends later.

Ms. Halliburton and two neighbors confronted Officer Reynolds and his friends later that day in the street.
Ms. Halliburton and the neighbors testified that the men, including Officer Reynolds and a man he identified as a fellow New York City officer, apologized.
Officer Reynolds said he had gone into the home by mistake, thinking that it was their rental.
But Ms. Halliburton and the neighbors also testified that the officers were laughing at the same time, saying that they had “immunity” because they were law enforcement officers.

Nashville detectives later tracked down Officer Reynolds, and Ms. Halliburton and her sons identified him from a photo array.
After being charged with aggravated burglary and assault, he pleaded no contest in September to aggravated criminal trespassing and three counts of assault. He is to report to jail on Jan. 15 if he does not appeal his sentence before then.
In arguing that Officer Reynolds, a five-year Police Department veteran previously assigned to the 33rd Precinct in Upper Manhattan, deserved jail time, Brian Ewald, the prosecutor, said Officer Reynolds and his friends had tried to “bully their way through this or out of this.”
“Keep quiet, don’t tell anybody a thing and we’ll get out of this,” Mr. Ewald said in describing the men’s attitude. “You know, we went, we cut up in another city, what happens in Nashville stays in Nashville, let’s get out of town early and live our lives.”
"Even if the bee could explain to the fly why pollen is better than shit, the fly could never understand."

Re: In Virginia, and elsewhere, gun supporters prepare to defy new laws

285
K9s wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:28 pm Fundamentally different. Immigrant sanctuary cities don't do the job of ICE for ICE. They don't threaten to create militias and dare the government to "come and take it".

Gun laws are on the books and enforced when they catch someone. They don't go door-to-door busting in everywhere (like ICE) except in Fox News fantasies. They do go to minority neighborhoods and look for any reason to bust in, though, if they ever do have a reason.
Sanctuary cities are local statements that the folks there won't comply with a Federal organization's process they see as illegal. 2A sanctuaries are also local statements that the folks there won't comply with a higher org (be it state or federal) if it attempts illegal acts. The point of the 2A sanctuaries is that folks already understand that other orgs are breaking down doors (like ICE or police in minority neighborhoods or police 'administering' red flag removals) and they want to stop the progress before it reaches the level of town-wide ICE raids.

Don't forget that Red Flag laws have already cost lives. https://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2018/11/ ... el-county/

Re: In Virginia, and elsewhere, gun supporters prepare to defy new laws

286
AndyH wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:39 pm
K9s wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:28 pm Fundamentally different. Immigrant sanctuary cities don't do the job of ICE for ICE. They don't threaten to create militias and dare the government to "come and take it".

Gun laws are on the books and enforced when they catch someone. They don't go door-to-door busting in everywhere (like ICE) except in Fox News fantasies. They do go to minority neighborhoods and look for any reason to bust in, though, if they ever do have a reason.
Sanctuary cities are local statements that the folks there won't comply with a Federal organization's process they see as illegal. 2A sanctuaries are also local statements that the folks there won't comply with a higher org (be it state or federal) if it attempts illegal acts. The point of the 2A sanctuaries is that folks already understand that other orgs are breaking down doors (like ICE or police in minority neighborhoods or police 'administering' red flag removals) and they want to stop the progress before it reaches the level of town-wide ICE raids.

Don't forget that Red Flag laws have already cost lives. https://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2018/11/ ... el-county/
Not disagreeing with you, Andy. The talk of armed resistance and militias is what worries me. It sounds a whole lot like the neo-Confederates and Klan response to civil rights legislation to the rest of the country. They need to tone down the rhetoric and focus on rights, not anger. It is going to keep Virginia blue and make the anti-2A arguments seem to be the most rational arguments.
It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often groans more loudly than an empty stomach.

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Re: In Virginia, and elsewhere, gun supporters prepare to defy new laws

287
K9s wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:55 pm Not disagreeing with you, Andy. The talk of armed resistance and militias is what worries me. It sounds a whole lot like the neo-Confederates and Klan response to civil rights legislation to the rest of the country. They need to tone down the rhetoric and focus on rights, not anger. It is going to keep Virginia blue and make the anti-2A arguments seem to be the most rational arguments.
I thought I might have misunderstood once your point about busting doors in minority neighborhoods sunk in. Mea culpa.

Plenty of hair on fire in the 2A YouTube community, for sure. I completely agree that rational arguments about rights should rule the day. Unfortunately, there's a severe lack of logic and reason on the side of the Dems as well. Check this NPR piece from the 29th for an example.

https://www.npr.org/2019/12/29/79186048 ... t-violence
2019 Brought Stepped-Up Efforts To Counter White Supremacist Violence
This was at the end of the interview but didn't make it into the transcript:
...what do you think you will be watching for next year? First of all, I'll be watching for follow-through on those pledges to take this issue more seriously, including the White House and Congress. And we can't forget it's an election year, historically there's always a rise in hate crimes in an election year, so I'll be looking at those divisions and whether we see them spilling into the streets. We're already hearing extremists pledge to fight about Red Flag laws and other efforts at gun control. It's hard to know how seriously to take some of these factions, but some are threatening armed rebellion.
Nothing says "I hear you and understand" like reporting that 2A sanctuaries are part of the white nationalist problem.

Re: In Virginia, and elsewhere, gun supporters prepare to defy new laws

288
Whoops. The Dems are doing it again, labeling a segment of the population as “deplorables” then turning their backs, ironically whistling Dixie. Things are not OK with their position and they refuse to pay attention and grow from repeated failures.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

Re: In Virginia, and elsewhere, gun supporters prepare to defy new laws

289
Absolutely. The lack of understanding on all sides is only helping divide us. White guys with guns are called extremists by the Dems. Minorities with guns are assumed to be criminals by everyone else. It won't be long before they all agree that guns are a problem to be banned. Except for Law Enforcement, of course.
It is an unfortunate human failing that a full pocketbook often groans more loudly than an empty stomach.

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Re: In Virginia, and elsewhere, gun supporters prepare to defy new laws

290
No one is going to compromise any more. The pro 2A people have been tolerant of infringement for decades and all they get is that the Moms/Dems want more, more, more as predicted. Nobody cares what we (US) want - the Government as an entity is pro disarmament and wants your/my guns in the dirt because they are owned and operated by a Global Corporate Oligarchy that wants our IRA's, our 401K's, our home equity, Life savings, retirement (including SS) and college savings - that's *Trillions* of $ and they mean to fleece US of it by making US pay 3X as much for healthcare and taxing US into oblivion while ignoring Corps that confiscate retirement funds by changing hands and buying/selling companies.

They want US disarmed because if we have guns we can hurt them/defy them.

We are not going to vote our way out of the ass kicking that's coming. Hopefully this can be peaceful but the time to think about being disarmed or compromising is done now. The Government, our Politicians, our "Representation" (millionaires/billionaires) is literally out of fucking control. And the call is coming for "cooler heads to prevail" when all of US old fuckers have been telling ya'll for about 50 years that The Purge is going to happen if we don't get Justice and Government by, for, and of The People. It's broken. Time to get it fixed.

Take care of yer local communities and stay prepared to tell da Government again and again - We will not comply. You work for *me*...fucker. Get out of my face and get on your face.

Can't anyone see what's coming now? :no: :shoot2:

How stupid does this need to get before we all understand that our Government is broken beyond repair? Jesus, folks. :wall:

VooDoo
Tyrants disarm the people they intend to oppress.

I am sworn to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Re: In Virginia, and elsewhere, gun supporters prepare to defy new laws

291
To those of you living in AWB states. To register or not register. I live in a county that rejected sanctuary status. I'm a stickler for following the law and I don't want to commit a felony. However I don't want to set myself up for confiscation. If I received the dreaded letter, would I have the option of moving verbotten guns out of state. At this point I'm thinking about moving my guns to another state.

Re: In Virginia, and elsewhere, gun supporters prepare to defy new laws

292
:oops2: oops :sorry: sorry :crazy: unclear.
culannmac wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:10 am moving my guns to another state.

how ironic, an underground railroad for guns. what state do you reside in?nm, i see virginia from another thread. i'd offer to hold them for you, but then i might want to shoot them now and again, and my cleaning regime may not be up to your standards.
Last edited by lurker on Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
i'm retired. what's your excuse?

Re: In Virginia, and elsewhere, gun supporters prepare to defy new laws

293
Me personally? I live in Illinois....we have about 1/2 our counties as 2A Sanctuaries. I can move my guns to Iowa as I have family and storage there if I have to. If it comes to that I'd store them out of County rather than Register because we all know what will happen once we register. Personally I'm will to go to jail now and will no longer comply with infringement. I feel that it does me little good to hide my self defense weapons where I have to go get them out of storage to defend myself so what's the point in that?

That's my mindset but it is up to each to make their decision. I'm done complying with illegal laws.

VooDoo
Tyrants disarm the people they intend to oppress.

I am sworn to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Re: In Virginia, and elsewhere, gun supporters prepare to defy new laws

294
lurker wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:19 am :oops2: oops :sorry: sorry :crazy: unclear.
culannmac wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:10 am moving my guns to another state.

how ironic, an underground railroad for guns. what state do you reside in?nm, i see virginia from another thread. i'd offer to hold them for you, but then i might want to shoot them now and again, and my cleaning regime may not be up to your standards.
Thanks Lurker! That said, I have a possible place in SC.

Re: In Virginia, and elsewhere, gun supporters prepare to defy new laws

295
Unfortunately it looks like this 2A Sanctuary issue in Virginia is going partisan....many of the most vehement supporters are now separating into Left/Right - Democrats vs Republicans. This is a meeting set up in Culpeper County VA - remember the Sheriff who said he'd deputize as many as needed to resist?

https://z-m-www.facebook.com/events/837519363335213/
On July 17, 1775, citizens from Culpeper, Fauquier and Orange counties came together in Clayton’s Old Field under a large oak tree, in present day Yowell Meadow Park, to raise a cadre of 350 men to defend themselves and their families from a tyrannical government. Those 350 brave men would go down in history as the Culpeper Minutemen.
Today, we are facing equally ominous threats from our own state government, including threats to confiscate our arms, threats of economic and legal retaliation against our localities, local elected officials and local law enforcement, and veiled threats of the use of military force against peaceful, law-abiding citizens who have done no wrong. The governor and legislators in Richmond have said they intend to strip of us of our God given rights. They are not listening.
We are being threatened. It is time to join together again in defense of our liberties.
Please join us. All citizens are welcome. We are renewing our commitment to the defense of our right to keep and bear arms and to the principles of liberty upon which this great republic was founded. We will meet on the same hallowed ground where the Culpeper Minutemen pledged their lives in defense of liberty and do the same.
Dammit. Dammit....another partisan divide to divide those who are divided. :weep:

VooDoo
Tyrants disarm the people they intend to oppress.

I am sworn to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Re: In Virginia, and elsewhere, gun supporters prepare to defy new laws

297
i've seen an undercurrent of anxiety about this since the thread started. i should probably just shut up about it.
is anyone surprised that this issue has partisan aspects? it's about guns. ok, presumptively right-wing biased. oh, wait! where are we having this discussion? who are we? the Liberal Gun Club?
i routinely pass as conservative. i've seen the uncomprehending look. "isn't that an oxymoron?" "don't you mean Libertarian?" "you're joking, right?"
no, dammit. LIberal. and i'm not even much of a liberal. this is about resisting an attempt to undermine the constitution. the 2nd in this case is just another civil right, and if the righties don't see that, it's their problem not mine. sure, it appeals to right-wingers. but IMO in this rare instance, they're right on this one thing. liberals should be on board with this, but our authoritarian betters tell us that gunsrbad, k? and heaven forbid we should break ranks and say NO. no, dammit, authoritarians are bad.
i'm retired. what's your excuse?

Re: In Virginia, and elsewhere, gun supporters prepare to defy new laws

298
It wasn't partisan from the beginning?
Not here. But I suppose it has to be going forward to make sure it's us against them, Liberals VS Conservatives, Democrats vs Republicans, and this will keep US fighting against each other while the Government and our Representation continue to work for the highest bidder and legislate away our Rights.

Should have known there is no way out except a Civil War and a bunch of dead folks. :weep:

I only hope that if they pass the legislation that ignites the Militias now being formed in Virginia the Politicians who passed the Legislation are the first to go. :wavecry:

I think I have found my limits here at the Liberal/Democrat Gun Club. It's been fun and informative but now I feel like I'm collaborating with the enemies of Gun Ownership so it's time for me to go now. Good luck.

VooDoo
Tyrants disarm the people they intend to oppress.

I am sworn to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

Re: In Virginia, and elsewhere, gun supporters prepare to defy new laws

299
culannmac wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:10 am To those of you living in AWB states. To register or not register. I live in a county that rejected sanctuary status. I'm a stickler for following the law and I don't want to commit a felony. However I don't want to set myself up for confiscation. If I received the dreaded letter, would I have the option of moving verbotten guns out of state. At this point I'm thinking about moving my guns to another state.
In California, we were allowed to remove "features" from firearms to stay clear of the regulations otherwise requiring registration. There is also the potential option of removing the gas system resulting in a non semi auto rifle, a relatively easy and reversible modification (just pull the gas tube and reverse the gas block). Compliance will depend on the eventual regulations and definitions therein. One practically needs an attorney on retainer in California to stay legal with all the new laws every year.

Or you can send them to lurker. :)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Amazon [Bot], Google [Bot] and 2 guests