Western liberal militia?

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highdesert
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Re: Western liberal militia?

Post by highdesert »

DC v Heller said once again that the Second Amendment applies to the states, not just the federal government. Biden needs Bloomberg money this election cycle but it doesn't mean he'll follow Bloomberg's anti-gun agenda, after decades in the Senate, Biden knows that chamber and Congress. As VP he was president of the Senate and has only been away from the Senate four years, he has a good idea what will pass and what will not pass.

Blue states play the same games with 2A as red states play with Roe v Wade, can't repeal it so they just try to restrict it. Which is why there is the argument in gun cases about what level of judicial scrutiny should apply and 2A groups argue for strict scrutiny.
Strict scrutiny is a form of judicial review that courts use to determine the constitutionality of certain laws. Strict scrutiny is often used by courts when a plaintiff sues the government for discrimination. To pass strict scrutiny, the legislature must have passed the law to further a "compelling governmental interest," and must have narrowly tailored the law to achieve that interest.

Strict scrutiny is the highest standard of review which a court will use to evaluate the constitutionality of governmental discrimination. The other two standards are intermediate scrutiny and rational basis review.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/strict_ ... imination.
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Re: Western liberal militia?

Post by Denvertaco07 »

sikacz wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:23 am
Denvertaco07 wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:07 am
The overwhelming hoarding of AR-15's is by those who say (maybe even believe) that in order to protect themselves from the government, they need all these AR-15's, and practice "war games" in the woods. To those who think that if our government actually became tyrannical and decided to crush / kill its citizens then an AR-15 might buy you a day or two, but not much else.

Biden's stated position is that you have two choices: Sell your AR-15 back to the government, or register it like a full auto. He's not taking your guns. I'm still waiting for Obama to come and get my guns, I guess all that door to door tyranny takes some time. THE POTUS does not create law, so I doubt any of it will come to fruition. I'm on the side who's players believe that we have a problem with mass shootings, what's wrong with thinking about solutions, it's more than what the right does, sending thoughts and prayers does nothing.

I have AR-15's, not to protect myself from M1A1 Abrams or A-10 Thunderbolt's (cuz that's just stupid), but to protect myself and my family from the right-wing terrorists that Trump leads and cheers on. It started before Trump, but he's given most of these nutcases credibility and they feel emboldened like no other time in the last 150 years.

If the "liberals" or progressives needed a militia in the same way that all these back-woods trump cultists do, then we are screwed cuz they live and breath this lame BS day and night. At the end of the day, reasonable people in the Military and Police will back us, and therefore, we don't need a crazy ammo-sexual militia.

Now, if the society collapsed a la "the walking dead" then yeah, AR-15's will be awesome, maybe a few more years of COVID and we'll be there.

just my 2 cents.
The solution to mass shootings is looking at the underlying root causes of violence. That is the stated position of this club. The stated positions of the democratic party are totally different, they are inline with your thoughts. That’s fine, but this is not the democratic gun club, it’s The Liberal Gun Club and there is nothing liberal about restrictions and bans. Forcing registration is a bridge too far.
I'll apologize for being a dick first, so bear with me, it's "Democratic" when you are talking about the party, but I got your point. I think there's a lot more we can agree on than disagree. The term "Liberal" in today's lexicon is not what I would call "libertarian", is that what this club is? Personally, living without guns would not affect my life, but I'll partake in the right to do so. I'm not a one-issue voter either, and so a candidate that isn't friendly to guns is still better than a right-wing, Confederate pig.

Do you know what the underlying causes of violence are? I can guess a few, and agree, they should be looked at and we should fix them, for many reasons, not just because they perpetuate violence. Take poverty for instance - that can be a cause for violence right? How do we fix it? Do other first-world countries have poverty issues and do they also have mass murder issues? Are the GOP or any "conservative" looking at fixing the underlying issues? They have one answer, Jesus, so, I guess that's something? But really, they are the party of "we are (mostly) white property owners and the system has always and continues to work great for us, so there is no need for change."

So, IMO, progressives are the only folks willing to look at history, contextualize current issues and try to actually solve things to the betterment of the whole. If you want to fix the underlying causes, IMO, you not only need to be a "classic liberal" but a progressive, and despite its many flaws, the Democratic Party is the only one at least attempting. I assume that most folks here are not single-issue voters, and if they were, and it was 2A, then they would find more like-minded folks on 4chan, 8chan, Breitbart, Infowars etc.
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Re: Western liberal militia?

Post by Denvertaco07 »

NegativeApproach wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:46 am
Denvertaco07 wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:07 am
The overwhelming hoarding of AR-15's is by those who say (maybe even believe) that in order to protect themselves from the government, they need all these AR-15's, and practice "war games" in the woods. To those who think that if our government actually became tyrannical and decided to crush / kill its citizens then an AR-15 might buy you a day or two, but not much else.

Biden's stated position is that you have two choices: Sell your AR-15 back to the government, or register it like a full auto. He's not taking your guns. I'm still waiting for Obama to come and get my guns, I guess all that door to door tyranny takes some time. THE POTUS does not create law, so I doubt any of it will come to fruition. I'm on the side who's players believe that we have a problem with mass shootings, what's wrong with thinking about solutions, it's more than what the right does, sending thoughts and prayers does nothing.

I have AR-15's, not to protect myself from M1A1 Abrams or A-10 Thunderbolt's (cuz that's just stupid), but to protect myself and my family from the right-wing terrorists that Trump leads and cheers on. It started before Trump, but he's given most of these nutcases credibility and they feel emboldened like no other time in the last 150 years.

If the "liberals" or progressives needed a militia in the same way that all these back-woods trump cultists do, then we are screwed cuz they live and breath this lame BS day and night. At the end of the day, reasonable people in the Military and Police will back us, and therefore, we don't need a crazy ammo-sexual militia.

Now, if the society collapsed a la "the walking dead" then yeah, AR-15's will be awesome, maybe a few more years of COVID and we'll be there.

just my 2 cents.
People don't need guns to protect them from the military. IF things were to ever go south, the military would be at home defending their families and friends, just like the police would be. We've seen how that could occur this year, and that's why gun sales are through the roof and why it's very difficult to even find basic ammo right now.

The standard modern sporting rifle is a great option for many people to defend themselves in a variety of circumstances, and I'm baffled as to why you'd be repeating Bloomberg-inspired propaganda against them on a pro-gun board.

Perhaps you would be ok with having a single shot shotgun and "shooting through the door" like Joe Biden says you should.
"We've seen how that could occur this year"...sorry, can you elaborate on that, did the military and police go home? Sorry I'm missing something here.

I don't follow Bloomberg, and frankly for that matter, Biden. I suppose I'm just not as extreme in my views about guns. My life does not revolve around guns. I don't believe we can take away guns at this point, there are too many out there, and too many criminals and alt-right terrorists have them. Does the club believe in background checks? How about requiring training? How about requiring training for concealed carry? Does the right to keep and bear arms stop at small arms?
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Re: Western liberal militia?

Post by sikacz »

I'd say I am liberal and not libertarian. It's been my understanding as long as I've been here that the club is liberal and not libertarian as well. As far as knowing the underlying causes of violence, it's been a topic here many times and is mentioned in our positions. Might want to look up the previous threads and naturally our position articles. As far as my use of "democratic" it makes a point and is not intended to be right or wrong in a grammatical sense. It as you seem to understand, is a means to underscore that democratic party positions are not the official positions of his club.
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Re: Western liberal militia?

Post by featureless »

Denvertaco07 wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:00 pm
sikacz wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 3:23 am
Denvertaco07 wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:07 am
The overwhelming hoarding of AR-15's is by those who say (maybe even believe) that in order to protect themselves from the government, they need all these AR-15's, and practice "war games" in the woods. To those who think that if our government actually became tyrannical and decided to crush / kill its citizens then an AR-15 might buy you a day or two, but not much else.

Biden's stated position is that you have two choices: Sell your AR-15 back to the government, or register it like a full auto. He's not taking your guns. I'm still waiting for Obama to come and get my guns, I guess all that door to door tyranny takes some time. THE POTUS does not create law, so I doubt any of it will come to fruition. I'm on the side who's players believe that we have a problem with mass shootings, what's wrong with thinking about solutions, it's more than what the right does, sending thoughts and prayers does nothing.

I have AR-15's, not to protect myself from M1A1 Abrams or A-10 Thunderbolt's (cuz that's just stupid), but to protect myself and my family from the right-wing terrorists that Trump leads and cheers on. It started before Trump, but he's given most of these nutcases credibility and they feel emboldened like no other time in the last 150 years.

If the "liberals" or progressives needed a militia in the same way that all these back-woods trump cultists do, then we are screwed cuz they live and breath this lame BS day and night. At the end of the day, reasonable people in the Military and Police will back us, and therefore, we don't need a crazy ammo-sexual militia.

Now, if the society collapsed a la "the walking dead" then yeah, AR-15's will be awesome, maybe a few more years of COVID and we'll be there.

just my 2 cents.
The solution to mass shootings is looking at the underlying root causes of violence. That is the stated position of this club. The stated positions of the democratic party are totally different, they are inline with your thoughts. That’s fine, but this is not the democratic gun club, it’s The Liberal Gun Club and there is nothing liberal about restrictions and bans. Forcing registration is a bridge too far.
I'll apologize for being a dick first, so bear with me, it's "Democratic" when you are talking about the party, but I got your point. I think there's a lot more we can agree on than disagree. The term "Liberal" in today's lexicon is not what I would call "libertarian", is that what this club is? Personally, living without guns would not affect my life, but I'll partake in the right to do so. I'm not a one-issue voter either, and so a candidate that isn't friendly to guns is still better than a right-wing, Confederate pig.

Do you know what the underlying causes of violence are? I can guess a few, and agree, they should be looked at and we should fix them, for many reasons, not just because they perpetuate violence. Take poverty for instance - that can be a cause for violence right? How do we fix it? Do other first-world countries have poverty issues and do they also have mass murder issues? Are the GOP or any "conservative" looking at fixing the underlying issues? They have one answer, Jesus, so, I guess that's something? But really, they are the party of "we are (mostly) white property owners and the system has always and continues to work great for us, so there is no need for change."

So, IMO, progressives are the only folks willing to look at history, contextualize current issues and try to actually solve things to the betterment of the whole. If you want to fix the underlying causes, IMO, you not only need to be a "classic liberal" but a progressive, and despite its many flaws, the Democratic Party is the only one at least attempting. I assume that most folks here are not single-issue voters, and if they were, and it was 2A, then they would find more like-minded folks on 4chan, 8chan, Breitbart, Infowars etc.
Sorry for the big quote.

Here's my fundamental problem with banning AR15s. It. Won't. Solve. Shit. More people are stabbed to death, beaten to death or bludgeoned to death (each it's own statistic) than are killed with all rifles combined every year. Clearly, the AR15 is neither the cause of violent death nor the preferred tool (that would be handguns). To claim it is and use that as a justification to remove the most effective means of self defense we citizens have while at the same time, significantly infringing on "shall not be infringed" is, well, fucking absurd. Thus, the focus on root causes. ;)

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Re: Western liberal militia?

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Featureless. :clap2: :clap2: :clap2:
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Re: Western liberal militia?

Post by YankeeTarheel »

featureless wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:51 pm
Here's my fundamental problem with banning AR15s. It. Won't. Solve. Shit.
In 2017 there were just under 40,000 gun deaths.
24,000 were suicides, out of 47,000 suicides (51%)
16,000 other gun deaths.
Something like 425 were from ALL rifles--ARs, AKs, Bolt action, Lever action, single shot, whatever. But not shotguns--counted in a different column.
That's just over 1% of all gun deaths and just over 4% of all non-suicide gun deaths.
Even if we assume that 400 of the 425 were from ARs and AKs, taking them all away means there are still 15,600 non-suicide gun deaths.
But lowering just 10% of ALL non suicides would reduce gun deaths by 1,600--4x that 400.

Despite all the red-hat assholes running around "guarding" with ARs and AKs, the numbers STILL say the ARs and AKs are not the problem--it's the assholes with them.
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Re: Western liberal militia?

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The deal with 'assault' weapons is mass shootings, not cumulative totals. If we gave a damn about cumulative total deaths in this country, we wouldn't be arguing about how to fund and provide healthcare.

I mean, I'm as opposed to mass shootings as anyone. But gun bans and everyday carry are just different responses to the same fear.

We all agree that addressing the systemic inequality in our society and government is THE single most important thing we can do to reduce violence of any kind, gun-related or not. We could cut "gun violence" in half by cutting suicide numbers without changing murder rates in the least - but that obviously isn't the violence that concerns ban proponents. Social distancing has gone a long way to reducing mass-shooting incidents, thankfully. We're about to see the biggest test of the old line that a armed society is a polite society as the left has armed up this year. Who knows? Maybe it'll help.

Biden, for better or worse, has shown a willingness to apologize for past missteps and to correct course above and beyond any politician in my memory, whether it be the Crime Bill or whatnot. ("Super-predators" was a Clintonism, but I don't expect everyone to have a steel-trap memory or cite every reference in an online debate.) For all Obama's faults - and I never voted for him in a primary - he was always more progressive than the GOP alternative, and the same was true for both Clintons, and Kerry, and Gore. I'm increasingly of the opinion that every president should retire to a 'secure facility' to serve out the rest of their days, given the inevitable crimes of state that come from leading an empire that's been at war for a generation.

We don't get to choose our favorite, and no politician will agree with us 100% unless we run ourselves. We only get to pick between evils, because people are evil. But people are also good, and there is good in Joe, there is good in Kamala. They will do more to address the Covid pandemic, and racial inequality, and economic inequality, than any plausible alternative at this point in time. But if we elect as many damn progressives as we can over the next decade, maybe we'll actually see some progress before our own pigeons come home to roost.

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Re: Western liberal militia?

Post by Denvertaco07 »

featureless wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:51 pm

Sorry for the big quote.

Here's my fundamental problem with banning AR15s. It. Won't. Solve. Shit. More people are stabbed to death, beaten to death or bludgeoned to death (each it's own statistic) than are killed with all rifles combined every year. Clearly, the AR15 is neither the cause of violent death nor the preferred tool (that would be handguns). To claim it is and use that as a justification to remove the most effective means of self defense we citizens have while at the same time, significantly infringing on "shall not be infringed" is, well, fucking absurd. Thus, the focus on root causes. ;)
It might not, but I don't think the issue is really AR15's vs other causes or instruments of death as a whole, it's really related to mass shootings, and why this country has far more than any other. I'm no expert, I don't know what the ultimate solution is, probably multi-faceted.

As far as some Biden led gun grab - Biden, if elected, doesn't create law. I'm just not all that concerned about this as an issue for voting. Much more interested in Healthcare, climate change, improving equality for all and of course, removing the insane a-hole that's in there now.

and to Wing's great point - if the answer is to address the underlying causes, which party, which group of folks, Conservative / GOP or Progressive / Democrat do you believe are actually going to or are willing to address the issues? For me, there's no doubt it's the D party, and if that's the case, then it behooves you to vote D so that they can address the underlying causes and therefore reducing mass shootings, and therefore decreasing any urgency to solve a "gun problem". So... VOTE BIDEN G DAMNIT!

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Re: Western liberal militia?

Post by featureless »

Mass shootings don't hold a monopoly on AR15s, either. Additionally, mass shootings are vanishingly rare, though celebrated in the media for weeks on end. According to FBI studies, "assault weapons" are no more common in mass shootings than any other type of firearm. So again, an AWB won't do shit. Sure will look shiny and cool though that they did something.

I live in an AW ban state. Shockingly, the ban hasn't reduced mass shootings. California remains top in the nation for them.

And yes, I'll vote for Tourniquet Joe and bitch about it loudly. :)

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Re: Western liberal militia?

Post by MaryFields »

I just came across this group. Another chapter opening in East Washington. Puget Sound John Brown Gun Club https://psjbgc.org/ .



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Re: Western liberal militia?

Post by Denvertaco07 »

Add Admiral McRaven to the list of Biden endorsers. I see more and more "reasonable" ex-military brass and ex GOP members who see what a danger Trump is. So...I guess to my point about the Military would back "the left" vs. "Trumpsters" in a civil war, should that dream of the alt-right come to fruition.
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Re: Western liberal militia?

Post by Outpost716 »

NegativeApproach wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:12 pm
NegativeApproach wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:55 pm
Joe Biden says he's coming for your guns... is he lying?

https://joebiden.com/gunsafety/#
I take biden at his word, but I’ve said my piece about this. I do wonder what continuing down this conversation path serves. Look back on earlier threads, you and Zen are not the only two to bring up these points. Sure, y’all have the right to express these points as many times as you like, but, I doubt you’ll change minds at this point. This election was baked months ago, perhaps even a year ago. If y’all choose to continue, please occasionally remind yourselves that opinions here are not universal. Some will agree with you others will not. Some see things through their own lens and refuse to see through someone else’s. Just saying, these conversations are set and won’t go anywhere, but in a circle at this point.

As I've stated, it takes some deep cognitive dissonance to believe that Joe Biden is going to do anything but uphold the status quo (which is great if you're an upper middle class white guy, I suppose), but he IS going to come for your guns. At least that's what he claims. People are free to either believe he is too incompetent to succeed or lying if they choose. But if he's incompetent or lying, then why would he deserve their support?[/quote]

I find it interesting, how you enumerate issues with Biden, his role in the Obama administration, and (to a lesser degree, Trump), yet, offer zero solutions.

And I get it. You're mad. I'm mad.

It's easy to be mad. I'm mad at the mindless, rampant consumerism. I'm terrified for the future habitability of our planet. I'm sick of capitalists that reap all the rewards and bear zero responsibility. I'm fucking sick of people buying into the "American Dream" -(which, btw, exists only for the top 1%. Carrot and stick.) I'm sick of the goddamn pandemic and being held hostage by a bunch of people who think they're freakin' special or excempt, or immune, or just fucking bored with the pandemic. I'm sick of being out of work -a career I TRULY loved- and being held hostage by Republi-can'ts who keep low-balling relief bills because they serve their rich, corporate masters.

Yeah, mad is fucking easy.

NegativeApproach wrote: That status quo IS the problem, and the direct reason and cause for why we have Donald Trump currently.

Furthermore, he and Harris are literally the most anti-gun candidates to ever run for the offices of POTUS and vice POTUS. That's a fact.

He also is going to keep your shitty health care in place.

He was in the room for warrant-less drone strikes (extrajudicial killing) of an American citizen.

He was vice-president under the administration that deported a tremendous amount of people from Central and South America and his administration also kept kids in cages.

He believed that blacks are "super-predators".

He is suspect (at best) with his behavior around women.

If that is all ok with people on here, that's their prerogative, but people swearing at me for pointing that out, on what is a pro-gun board seems a bit beyond ridiculous, don't you think?
You're right. The status quo is the problem. And so is complaining about the status quo. Tedium piled atop a smoldering, heaping turd of tedium. Complaining serves zero purpose but to temporary relieve whatever stress you have built-up and nothing more.

And, yes, there's a lot to be unhappy about, especially nowadays. I get it. I feel it. WE ALL FEEL IT.
But what are YOU going to do about it?

You can bitch and complain on some social media site or forum about how Biden's coming for [our] guns, or the abysmal state of healthcare (agreed), or dronestrikes, etc. -and you can toss around allegations of racial prejudice, misogyny, etc. But, unless you have extraordinary evidence (from reputable, verifiable sources!!) to support such extraordinary claims (especially the latter ones), you're just kicking at dust or and telling everyone who will listen about how just so sure you are about how sour those grapes probably were anyway because your person didn't get the nomination -or (long shot) you're here to stir up a batch of good ol' fashioned misinformation.

In any case, here's the deal: Biden isn't the perfect candidate. Hillary wasn't a perfect candidate. Hell, Obama wasn't a perfect candidate. Nor was any candidate EVER, regardless of your political affiliation. No candidate (or nominee) is going to be perfect for all people regardless of what side of the aisle you cast your gaze. Either they're going to be too heavy-handed or too light-handed when it comes to the issues. Now, multiply YOU by the number of others voting for your side. That's a lot of freakin' cats to herd and chances are super-duper high that not everyone is going to come away happy. So, maybe mull that over a bit, shall we?

But here's the thing (in case you didn't learn anything from this pandemic or other instances of awful though recent history), you can't just sit there and bitch and call it mission accomplished with some post somewhere where you're sure not to change the hearts and minds of those who read it, or you can actually do something about it. But, you have to get off your ass and you have to do something about it.

You have to vote.

Voting is your voice. Voting is my voice. It how we say STOP to the bullshit we've all suffered.

And as much as it might piss you off that your person isn't the one you'll be cheering on this election season, at least it isn't a vote for the dumpster fire run by the Dollar Menu Dictator that we've had for the past 4 years.

And if you're considering channeling your inner petulant child and tossing your vote away (or not voting at all), consider that YOU may actually be the problem.

Any vote that doesn't stand behind the person steering us away from utter self-destruction (read, anyone not voting for Biden) may as well cross the aisle and vote to continue this disgraceful shit show we've all come to know and loathe.

But your work doesn't stop there, because you need to help move the needle some more. You have to continue to help elect people who will do the least harm to- and bestow the greatest benefit to- the greatest number of people.

A single candidate isn't going to tick all of the proverbial boxes. Biden isn't going to tick all those boxes. Hillary wouldn't have. Obama didn't. Clinton didn't. But, here's the point, each cycle, each iteration of voting is a slow process of bringing to someone better than the last to lead. We have to move the needles. Vote. Every. Single. Time.

Look, I get it. I want our healthcare. I want our guns. I want to feel safe, secure. I want to feel like the person in the White House is going to represent most of our collective interests; isn't going to wipe his ass with our flag; or destroy us from the inside. Sadly, the reality is, that sort of change doesn't (and won't) happen overnight. You have to be in this to win this and the fight isn't just this election season. It's a forever commitment to building something better - something that you or I may not even live to enjoy, but at least we played our part to get us all there in the end. When I look back through all my voting, it was in hope of something better than before. That's how it has to be for all of us. Utopia won't happen in 2020. Nor 2024 or 2028, but you can't let that dissuade you. You have to keep moving that needle until you can't anymore. Then, you have to pass that responsibility to the next generation of voters.

Also, small footnote? Get over the swearing. We're all grown-ups. If you can't handle a little swearing, then you truly don't appreciate the art form, the importance of language, or the nuance of communication. Just sayin'.
Last edited by Outpost716 on Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Western liberal militia?

Post by ZenArcade »

Outpost716 wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:17 pm
...
Also, small footnote? Get over the swearing. We're all grown-ups. If you can't handle a little swearing, then you truly don't appreciate the art form, the importance of language, or the nuance of communication. Just sayin'.
A good many things I agree with ^. But I voted for Biden and I'm going to complain all I want, while trying to create/voting for better options moving forward.

My response/opinion to your footnote would be ... it's not the swearing at all really, just the personal nastiness that was present.

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Re: Western liberal militia?

Post by Outpost716 »

ZenArcade wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:48 pm

A good many things I agree with ^. But I voted for Biden and I'm going to complain all I want, while trying to create/voting for better options moving forward.
Exactly. We all have to do what must be done to steer us away from another disastrous 4 years. And, I guess that's my real TLDR: Don't vote for Biden because he's you're guy and agree with all his pronouncements of policy. Vote for Biden because he's not the current Tire fire inside the dumpster fire, on a boat, on a lake of fire being hurled into the sun-in-Chief. Once he's in office, we need to keep moving that needle progressive... Baby steps suck, I know. But BIG changes that happen too fast scare people. Gotta keep that in mind.
ZenArcade wrote:My response/opinion to your footnote would be ... it's not the swearing at all really, just the personal nastiness that was present.
Things are heated. We're all feeling it. I think it's especially easy to pick apart someone's argument (or be a little diatribe-y) when paying attention to the pandemic and the election are the only real alternatives in some people's lives. :no: :laugh:

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Re: Western liberal militia?

Post by YankeeTarheel »

I WANT to be able to complain about the President, without worrying someone is going vandalize my house and threaten my family.
I WANT to be able to put a Biden (or other) sign on my lawn and not worry that I'll face what one of our members faced in South Jersey: His sign and the tires on his car were vandalized.
I WANT to be able to go into my polling place and NOT see an armed cop wearing a mask openly endorsing a candidate--and intimidating voters voting for the other candidate.
I WANT to know that when I put my ballot in a ballot box, some fascist isn't going to set some newspaper on fire and shove it in the box.
I WANT to know that a mail carrier, seeing mail-in ballots from an area likely to be mainly for one party, isn't going to dump those ballots in a dumpster.
I WANT to know that I can trust the FDA, the CDC, FEMA, and DOJ again.

These are just some of the things I want that I KNOW I cannot get with Trump as President.
""If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -- LBJ

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Re: Western liberal militia?

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Well stated, Yankee Tarheel.

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Re: Western liberal militia?

Post by bornin69 »

Here’s what we never ever need to be seen as, ever.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3gmmk/ ... t-violence


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Re: Western liberal militia?

Post by CDFingers »

This president loosened the glue responsible for the cohesion of society. We have to replenish.

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Re: Western liberal militia?

Post by NegativeApproach »

Outpost716 wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:17 pm
I find it interesting, how you enumerate issues with Biden, his role in the Obama administration, and (to a lesser degree, Trump), yet, offer zero solutions.

And I get it. You're mad. I'm mad.

It's easy to be mad. I'm mad at the mindless, rampant consumerism. I'm terrified for the future habitability of our planet. I'm sick of capitalists that reap all the rewards and bear zero responsibility. I'm fucking sick of people buying into the "American Dream" -(which, btw, exists only for the top 1%. Carrot and stick.) I'm sick of the goddamn pandemic and being held hostage by a bunch of people who think they're freakin' special or excempt, or immune, or just fucking bored with the pandemic. I'm sick of being out of work -a career I TRULY loved- and being held hostage by Republi-can'ts who keep low-balling relief bills because they serve their rich, corporate masters.

Yeah, mad is fucking easy.




You're right. The status quo is the problem. And so is complaining about the status quo. Tedium piled atop a smoldering, heaping turd of tedium. Complaining serves zero purpose but to temporary relieve whatever stress you have built-up and nothing more.

And, yes, there's a lot to be unhappy about, especially nowadays. I get it. I feel it. WE ALL FEEL IT.
But what are YOU going to do about it?

You can bitch and complain on some social media site or forum about how Biden's coming for [our] guns, or the abysmal state of healthcare (agreed), or dronestrikes, etc. -and you can toss around allegations of racial prejudice, misogyny, etc. But, unless you have extraordinary evidence (from reputable, verifiable sources!!) to support such extraordinary claims (especially the latter ones), you're just kicking at dust or and telling everyone who will listen about how just so sure you are about how sour those grapes probably were anyway because your person didn't get the nomination -or (long shot) you're here to stir up a batch of good ol' fashioned misinformation.

In any case, here's the deal: Biden isn't the perfect candidate. Hillary wasn't a perfect candidate. Hell, Obama wasn't a perfect candidate. Nor was any candidate EVER, regardless of your political affiliation. No candidate (or nominee) is going to be perfect for all people regardless of what side of the aisle you cast your gaze. Either they're going to be too heavy-handed or too light-handed when it comes to the issues. Now, multiply YOU by the number of others voting for your side. That's a lot of freakin' cats to herd and chances are super-duper high that not everyone is going to come away happy. So, maybe mull that over a bit, shall we?

But here's the thing (in case you didn't learn anything from this pandemic or other instances of awful though recent history), you can't just sit there and bitch and call it mission accomplished with some post somewhere where you're sure not to change the hearts and minds of those who read it, or you can actually do something about it. But, you have to get off your ass and you have to do something about it.

You have to vote.

Voting is your voice. Voting is my voice. It how we say STOP to the bullshit we've all suffered.

And as much as it might piss you off that your person isn't the one you'll be cheering on this election season, at least it isn't a vote for the dumpster fire run by the Dollar Menu Dictator that we've had for the past 4 years.

And if you're considering channeling your inner petulant child and tossing your vote away (or not voting at all), consider that YOU may actually be the problem.

Any vote that doesn't stand behind the person steering us away from utter self-destruction (read, anyone not voting for Biden) may as well cross the aisle and vote to continue this disgraceful shit show we've all come to know and loathe.

But your work doesn't stop there, because you need to help move the needle some more. You have to continue to help elect people who will do the least harm to- and bestow the greatest benefit to- the greatest number of people.

A single candidate isn't going to tick all of the proverbial boxes. Biden isn't going to tick all those boxes. Hillary wouldn't have. Obama didn't. Clinton didn't. But, here's the point, each cycle, each iteration of voting is a slow process of bringing to someone better than the last to lead. We have to move the needles. Vote. Every. Single. Time.

Look, I get it. I want our healthcare. I want our guns. I want to feel safe, secure. I want to feel like the person in the White House is going to represent most of our collective interests; isn't going to wipe his ass with our flag; or destroy us from the inside. Sadly, the reality is, that sort of change doesn't (and won't) happen overnight. You have to be in this to win this and the fight isn't just this election season. It's a forever commitment to building something better - something that you or I may not even live to enjoy, but at least we played our part to get us all there in the end. When I look back through all my voting, it was in hope of something better than before. That's how it has to be for all of us. Utopia won't happen in 2020. Nor 2024 or 2028, but you can't let that dissuade you. You have to keep moving that needle until you can't anymore. Then, you have to pass that responsibility to the next generation of voters.

Also, small footnote? Get over the swearing. We're all grown-ups. If you can't handle a little swearing, then you truly don't appreciate the art form, the importance of language, or the nuance of communication. Just sayin'.
Choosing to participate in a broken and rigged system is NOT the way you institute change. It's not even close.

Telling me that I need to come up with solutions is a red herring. First off, I don't have power to institute any changes. Second off, establishment statist apologists will tell me that I'm wrong and make excuses for the systems of oppression that they're voting for (as you are). Thirdly, it's not my job.

I participate in my community. I vote in every election. I'm a poll worker, and an election judge in most elections (sitting this one out due to Covid). I volunteer and I donate money to decent causes. I advocate and engage when and where I can.

But I'm not a corporation. I'm not a plutocrat.

Have you ever read Ender's Game? It's a decent book, but the flawed premise in it is that the ideas that are the best will somehow get the most airplay on the internet and that the best ideas will win out in the end. It's a complete and utter fallacy. The internet (and our politics) are funded by those with the most money. That's what dictates policy.

What you're asking me, in effect, to do, is "be rich". That's the way that policy gets written and determined in this country.

Biden is NOT going to move the needle towards a Utopia. He's going to keep going with the same failed ideas that got us Trump in the first place. But those that have money and power will continue to accumulate money and power under Biden. You realize that, I'm sure.

The wealth divide and lack of social mobility, lack of 1st world health care, and the fact that yes, he's coming for your guns, are a recipe for disaster.

You can vote for that garbage if you want, but I won't participate in a charade of democracy.

Choosing not to play in a rigged and broken game is very much my right, and I'd argue its my duty as an American.

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Re: Western liberal militia?

Post by sikacz »

NegativeApproach wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:20 am
Outpost716 wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:17 pm
I find it interesting, how you enumerate issues with Biden, his role in the Obama administration, and (to a lesser degree, Trump), yet, offer zero solutions.

And I get it. You're mad. I'm mad.

It's easy to be mad. I'm mad at the mindless, rampant consumerism. I'm terrified for the future habitability of our planet. I'm sick of capitalists that reap all the rewards and bear zero responsibility. I'm fucking sick of people buying into the "American Dream" -(which, btw, exists only for the top 1%. Carrot and stick.) I'm sick of the goddamn pandemic and being held hostage by a bunch of people who think they're freakin' special or excempt, or immune, or just fucking bored with the pandemic. I'm sick of being out of work -a career I TRULY loved- and being held hostage by Republi-can'ts who keep low-balling relief bills because they serve their rich, corporate masters.

Yeah, mad is fucking easy.




You're right. The status quo is the problem. And so is complaining about the status quo. Tedium piled atop a smoldering, heaping turd of tedium. Complaining serves zero purpose but to temporary relieve whatever stress you have built-up and nothing more.

And, yes, there's a lot to be unhappy about, especially nowadays. I get it. I feel it. WE ALL FEEL IT.
But what are YOU going to do about it?

You can bitch and complain on some social media site or forum about how Biden's coming for [our] guns, or the abysmal state of healthcare (agreed), or dronestrikes, etc. -and you can toss around allegations of racial prejudice, misogyny, etc. But, unless you have extraordinary evidence (from reputable, verifiable sources!!) to support such extraordinary claims (especially the latter ones), you're just kicking at dust or and telling everyone who will listen about how just so sure you are about how sour those grapes probably were anyway because your person didn't get the nomination -or (long shot) you're here to stir up a batch of good ol' fashioned misinformation.

In any case, here's the deal: Biden isn't the perfect candidate. Hillary wasn't a perfect candidate. Hell, Obama wasn't a perfect candidate. Nor was any candidate EVER, regardless of your political affiliation. No candidate (or nominee) is going to be perfect for all people regardless of what side of the aisle you cast your gaze. Either they're going to be too heavy-handed or too light-handed when it comes to the issues. Now, multiply YOU by the number of others voting for your side. That's a lot of freakin' cats to herd and chances are super-duper high that not everyone is going to come away happy. So, maybe mull that over a bit, shall we?

But here's the thing (in case you didn't learn anything from this pandemic or other instances of awful though recent history), you can't just sit there and bitch and call it mission accomplished with some post somewhere where you're sure not to change the hearts and minds of those who read it, or you can actually do something about it. But, you have to get off your ass and you have to do something about it.

You have to vote.

Voting is your voice. Voting is my voice. It how we say STOP to the bullshit we've all suffered.

And as much as it might piss you off that your person isn't the one you'll be cheering on this election season, at least it isn't a vote for the dumpster fire run by the Dollar Menu Dictator that we've had for the past 4 years.

And if you're considering channeling your inner petulant child and tossing your vote away (or not voting at all), consider that YOU may actually be the problem.

Any vote that doesn't stand behind the person steering us away from utter self-destruction (read, anyone not voting for Biden) may as well cross the aisle and vote to continue this disgraceful shit show we've all come to know and loathe.

But your work doesn't stop there, because you need to help move the needle some more. You have to continue to help elect people who will do the least harm to- and bestow the greatest benefit to- the greatest number of people.

A single candidate isn't going to tick all of the proverbial boxes. Biden isn't going to tick all those boxes. Hillary wouldn't have. Obama didn't. Clinton didn't. But, here's the point, each cycle, each iteration of voting is a slow process of bringing to someone better than the last to lead. We have to move the needles. Vote. Every. Single. Time.

Look, I get it. I want our healthcare. I want our guns. I want to feel safe, secure. I want to feel like the person in the White House is going to represent most of our collective interests; isn't going to wipe his ass with our flag; or destroy us from the inside. Sadly, the reality is, that sort of change doesn't (and won't) happen overnight. You have to be in this to win this and the fight isn't just this election season. It's a forever commitment to building something better - something that you or I may not even live to enjoy, but at least we played our part to get us all there in the end. When I look back through all my voting, it was in hope of something better than before. That's how it has to be for all of us. Utopia won't happen in 2020. Nor 2024 or 2028, but you can't let that dissuade you. You have to keep moving that needle until you can't anymore. Then, you have to pass that responsibility to the next generation of voters.

Also, small footnote? Get over the swearing. We're all grown-ups. If you can't handle a little swearing, then you truly don't appreciate the art form, the importance of language, or the nuance of communication. Just sayin'.
Choosing to participate in a broken and rigged system is NOT the way you institute change. It's not even close.

Telling me that I need to come up with solutions is a red herring. First off, I don't have power to institute any changes. Second off, establishment statist apologists will tell me that I'm wrong and make excuses for the systems of oppression that they're voting for (as you are). Thirdly, it's not my job.

I participate in my community. I vote in every election. I'm a poll worker, and an election judge in most elections (sitting this one out due to Covid). I volunteer and I donate money to decent causes. I advocate and engage when and where I can.

But I'm not a corporation. I'm not a plutocrat.

Have you ever read Ender's Game? It's a decent book, but the flawed premise in it is that the ideas that are the best will somehow get the most airplay on the internet and that the best ideas will win out in the end. It's a complete and utter fallacy. The internet (and our politics) are funded by those with the most money. That's what dictates policy.

What you're asking me, in effect, to do, is "be rich". That's the way that policy gets written and determined in this country.

Biden is NOT going to move the needle towards a Utopia. He's going to keep going with the same failed ideas that got us Trump in the first place. But those that have money and power will continue to accumulate money and power under Biden. You realize that, I'm sure.

The wealth divide and lack of social mobility, lack of 1st world health care, and the fact that yes, he's coming for your guns, are a recipe for disaster.

You can vote for that garbage if you want, but I won't participate in a charade of democracy.

Choosing not to play in a rigged and broken game is very much my right, and I'd argue its my duty as an American.
:clap2: :clap2: :clap2: Well said. Agreed.
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Re: Western liberal militia?

Post by Outpost716 »

NegativeApproach wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:20 am

Choosing to participate in a broken and rigged system is NOT the way you institute change. It's not even close.
Then what is? How would you, NegativeApproach, fix this? What are your suggestions? I'm all ears (eyes, whatever)! Please, enlighten me with your solution to the problem of the United States. Teach me something. I'm not unwilling to change my stance or reform my opinion, but you're going to have to work for it. You're going to have to substantiate your claims. And you have no reason to believe this, but I'm genuinely interested. But, I don't want to read more complaints and more about how powerless/not rich you are. I want to read your exact ideas (even in the absence of wealth) how you or anyone would solve this problem. That said, what's your perfect world? How does any of your "I'm taking my ball and going home!" solve the problem of this election?
NegativeApproach wrote: Telling me that I need to come up with solutions is a red herring. First off, I don't have power to institute any changes. Second off, establishment statist apologists will tell me that I'm wrong and make excuses for the systems of oppression that they're voting for (as you are). Thirdly, it's not my job.
Not what I suggested. Thinly veiled in my response was this: You're either part of the problem or you're part of the solution. So, which are you?
NegativeApproach wrote: I participate in my community. I vote in every election. I'm a poll worker, and an election judge in most elections (sitting this one out due to Covid). I volunteer and I donate money to decent causes. I advocate and engage when and where I can.
As do I. Well, not the poll worker bit, but the rest... And your point is what exactly? That you're a cog in the machine, too -just like everyone else?
NegativeApproach wrote: But I'm not a corporation. I'm not a plutocrat.
Oh, was this the point? I'm not either. And??? None of us are corporations or plutocrats. Welcome to the world.
NegativeApproach wrote: Have you ever read Ender's Game? It's a decent book, but the flawed premise in it is that the ideas that are the best will somehow get the most airplay on the internet and that the best ideas will win out in the end. It's a complete and utter fallacy. The internet (and our politics) are funded by those with the most money. That's what dictates policy.
No, I haven't read it. I don't care. It's a work of fiction. It's not representative of reality. Just like the Harry Potter. Is the premise you described loosely akin to our society? Yes, absolutely. So is "1984". So is "The Handmaid's Tale". So are dozens of works of fiction. What's the point? What's your point?

Yes, rich people do fund candidates, I'd be without any integrity if I didn't grant that; but you don't think they're not hedging their bets? You think they don't throw money at multiple candidates to see which sticks? C'mon! Their interest is in one thing: the amassing and continued amassing of wealth. They'll go with whomever wins, so long as they get what they want.

The point is, the rich don't dictate policy. They can't be bothered with policy -unless it affects their bottom line. You really, honestly think they'd climb down from on high to set forth a policy that doesn't and won't affect them? You think they care whether or not you have a job? healthcare? happiness? Hahahahaha! Shiiiiiiiiiiiit.
NegativeApproach wrote: What you're asking me, in effect, to do, is "be rich". That's the way that policy gets written and determined in this country.
LOL WUT? Nope. Whole lotta nope. Not even a little. Although I'm surprised the motorcycle cleared that shark completely.

Again, I'm stating that you're either a part of the problem or you're a part of the solution. You'll either vote for a candidate who gives us all the greater chance of a less-dreary future, or you will not. You've made your point clear and you fall under the latter. Cool. Not cool. Whatever. The rest of us will do our civic duty and carry you because you're too tired or bored or can't be bothered or are in such a state of absolute malaise that you can't even. Fine. You do you, boo.
NegativeApproach wrote: Biden is NOT going to move the needle towards a Utopia. He's going to keep going with the same failed ideas that got us Trump in the first place. But those that have money and power will continue to accumulate money and power under Biden. You realize that, I'm sure.
This was acknowledged in my initial response. Please go back and read it. Furthermore, I wasn't talking about Biden, specifically, moving the needle. I was talking about YOU moving the needle; US moving the needle -in small, seemingly insignificant, but modest degrees, over time. I even went so far as to acknowledge that, conceptually, it's not likely to happen with immediate effect. But, while I'm here, technically Biden does move the needle. He moves from the needle away from the RIGHT and the continuation of disaster under a Trump second term. In that regard, Biden is a metric shit ton better than Trump.
NegativeApproach wrote: The wealth divide and lack of social mobility, lack of 1st world health care, and the fact that yes, he's coming for your guns, are a recipe for disaster.

You can vote for that garbage if you want, but I won't participate in a charade of democracy.
So, to your mind: Biden == Trump? Have I got that right? It doesn't matter to you at all? Who would? Burnie? Or is he a broken puppet of wealthy interests, too? Warren? Budeg--- however you spell his name? ANYONE running for office in the US?

And, so that I'm sure that I completely understand you, I'll ask: It doesn't matter to you that Trump knew about the dangers of the pandemic and chose, CHOSE to deliberately mislead the people of this country (well, the ones that believed him anyway), then deny it to save face? It doesn't matter to you that he is a boastful, arrogant, broke-ass narcissist who really only wants attention and to be 'Liked' and retweeted in the hearts and minds of the under/uneducated? It doesn't matter to you that (whether you like them or not), the people around you have been mislead and manipulated?

Don't want to participate? That's your prerogative. Go for it. Or don't. However that works.

Though, I will suggest that you're likely to be better off elsewhere - like Finland, Norway, - hell, any country that made the "Happiest Places to Live" list. Clearly, the US isn't going to change, so why do you remain? Why, in all that you enumerate is wrong with this country, do you even bother sticking around? Serious question.
NegativeApproach wrote: Choosing not to play in a rigged and broken game is very much my right, and I'd argue its my duty as an American.
Well then! Take your toys and go home. Also, this is a cop-out and hardly American.

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Re: Western liberal militia?

Post by CDFingers »

There is an advantage in America to not voting.

There were times between my ages of 18 to 26 where I was lucky to know what month it was. Despite the political, economic, religious, and social upheavals taking place during that time, I could still make money, pay rent, eat food, do hobbies. Those moments in a proper political life are necessary so we know the bottom line. Once we know, we can progress toward a more perfect union. You gotta know the bottom line: America then allowed me to do that.

In my spiritual quest I've pushed it further, learned to wait and to fast for a week back in the day. Now I know many, many things: when you get to the mountain top, you can place one, single, small pebble that will change the course of the glacier. Everybody knows that. What I now know is there are many pebbles, and when seen from the center, there are infinite options for pebble placement.

The point is a man's got to know his limitations, just like a society must learn and know its limitations. Something happens in the brain when the body does not eat for a week. And something has happened in our society when we have fasted without leadership for lo, these too many years. Fasting in both accounts shows what's really real. After a week of no food, oh! an apple! Oh! Oh! Without leadership we now see too many people without homes, jobs, health care, food, even clean water. Imagine the minor things the next administration might do to dole out apples to the People. Yeah. Might work.

The person who does not vote still can maintain a fine life. However, after this last four years of schmutz, the non voter may think, "ya know..." Which is just exactly perfectly OK as well.

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Re: Western liberal militia?

Post by featureless »

Yup. I totally get why some aren't going to vote. The system, as it is, is fucked. The candidates, as they are, suck. I have made peace with using my vote as a block to someone else's Trump vote to possibly restore some order to the chaos. I don't like Biden's pre Trump status quo. But I like Trump's chaos even less. I will continue to support non super pac progressive candidates and honest Dems at the local and state level. However, I fear without campaign finance reform, we'll continue to have rich people deciding on what's best for the rest of us.

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Re: Western liberal militia?

Post by Bisbee »

A black activist once said to me that choosing not to vote (or voting for anyone other than a Democratic candidate) is a luxury that liberals possess which are not afforded black voters in America. Because the alternative is basically governmental policy amounting to the slow death of slavery (in all its economic forms) or armed resistance leading to quicker death. Voting is preferable. An interesting perspective from a different set of history and circumstances.
"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of non-violence to cover impotence. There is hope for a violent man to become non-violent. There is no such hope for the impotent." -Gandhi

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