Western liberal militia?

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YankeeTarheel
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Re: Western liberal militia?

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and the fact that yes, he's coming for your guns,
Anyone here who thinks Trump is NOT coming for OUR guns hasn't been paying attention! Guns are for Trump's Proud Boys, AtomWaffen, American Nazi Movement, the KKK, Identity Evropa, Oath Keepers, and all the other White supremacists, Anti-Semites, misogynists et al.

BUT GUNS ARE NOT FOR YOU AND ME IN TRUMP WORLD! RECOGNIZE THAT AS A FACT! HE PLANS TO DISARM HIS ENEMIES, WHO ARE EVERYONE NOT IN THE ABOVE!

We have a far, far better shot at keeping our guns with Biden. Maybe with 10 round mags, and not looking like "weapons of war" (WTF that means).
""If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -- LBJ

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Re: Western liberal militia?

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Bisbee wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:44 pm
A black activist once said to me that choosing not to vote (or voting for anyone other than a Democratic candidate) is a luxury that liberals possess which are not afforded black voters in America. Because the alternative is basically governmental policy amounting to the slow death of slavery (in all its economic forms) or armed resistance leading to quicker death. Voting is preferable. An interesting perspective from a different set of history and circumstances.
President Obama was just speaking in Philadelphia a few minutes ago, specifically aiming at young Black voters. He pointed out that the MOST Black participation was for him in 2008--60%. He said we don't know what would happen if it was 80% or 90% because we've never had that, and in mid-term elections Black participation can fall to as little as 30%!

His point is that with our voter participation rates (and I include myself, a senior White male, who ALWAYS votes), it's no surprise we don't get change.

I like to think that with a 70% or 80% or more participation, we can achieve a "herd immunity" to the shitheads like Trump and McConnell.
""If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -- LBJ

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Re: Western liberal militia?

Post by Outpost716 »

CDFingers wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:12 pm
There is an advantage in America to not voting.

There were times between my ages of 18 to 26 where I was lucky to know what month it was. Despite the political, economic, religious, and social upheavals taking place during that time, I could still make money, pay rent, eat food, do hobbies. Those moments in a proper political life are necessary so we know the bottom line. Once we know, we can progress toward a more perfect union. You gotta know the bottom line: America then allowed me to do that.

In my spiritual quest I've pushed it further, learned to wait and to fast for a week back in the day. Now I know many, many things: when you get to the mountain top, you can place one, single, small pebble that will change the course of the glacier. Everybody knows that. What I now know is there are many pebbles, and when seen from the center, there are infinite options for pebble placement.

The point is a man's got to know his limitations, just like a society must learn and know its limitations. Something happens in the brain when the body does not eat for a week. And something has happened in our society when we have fasted without leadership for lo, these too many years. Fasting in both accounts shows what's really real. After a week of no food, oh! an apple! Oh! Oh! Without leadership we now see too many people without homes, jobs, health care, food, even clean water. Imagine the minor things the next administration might do to dole out apples to the People. Yeah. Might work.

The person who does not vote still can maintain a fine life. However, after this last four years of schmutz, the non voter may think, "ya know..." Which is just exactly perfectly OK as well.

CDFingers
Many would argue that not voting is what got us into the Trump mess. So, how do you square this?

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Re: Western liberal militia?

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featureless wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:56 pm
Yup. I totally get why some aren't going to vote. The system, as it is, is fucked. The candidates, as they are, suck. I have made peace with using my vote as a block to someone else's Trump vote to possibly restore some order to the chaos. I don't like Biden's pre Trump status quo. But I like Trump's chaos even less. I will continue to support non super pac progressive candidates and honest Dems at the local and state level. However, I fear without campaign finance reform, we'll continue to have rich people deciding on what's best for the rest of us.
I get that. I sincerely do.

And while people hold their breath in protest —and for valid reasons, the very things we need the most (eg., civility, healthcare, police reform, et al) get kicked down the road, further out of reach. This does no one any good.

It all gets moved further out of reach because a non-vote isn't going to teach "them" any lessons; it's just going to illustrate how much more can be withheld and it will be deemed " acceptable".

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Re: Western liberal militia?

Post by Outpost716 »

Bisbee wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:44 pm
A black activist once said to me that choosing not to vote (or voting for anyone other than a Democratic candidate) is a luxury that liberals possess which are not afforded black voters in America. Because the alternative is basically governmental policy amounting to the slow death of slavery (in all its economic forms) or armed resistance leading to quicker death. Voting is preferable. An interesting perspective from a different set of history and circumstances.
And that's spot-on.

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Re: Western liberal militia?

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Bisbee wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:44 pm
A black activist once said to me that choosing not to vote (or voting for anyone other than a Democratic candidate) is a luxury that liberals possess which are not afforded black voters in America. Because the alternative is basically governmental policy amounting to the slow death of slavery (in all its economic forms) or armed resistance leading to quicker death. Voting is preferable. An interesting perspective from a different set of history and circumstances.
Agreed en toto. And I don't mean Dorothy's little dog.

We don't live in a democracy, we live in a republic. An oligarchy that substitutes the vote for armed revolt.

Choosing not to vote is choosing to lay down your arms and surrender.
NegativeApproach wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:20 am
Have you ever read Ender's Game? It's a decent book, but the flawed premise in it is that the ideas that are the best will somehow get the most airplay on the internet and that the best ideas will win out in the end. It's a complete and utter fallacy. The internet (and our politics) are funded by those with the most money. That's what dictates policy.
Here I thought the premise was that by game-fying warfare and using AI surveillance of online activities, the elites could put together detailed personal profiles of every individual in the system. That by controlling the flow of information to decision-makers, a military-industrial complex could control the outcome of events, and lay blame for unspeakable atrocities in the hands of those who didn't understand the full significance of their actions.

Here I thought that the premise was that on the internet, nobody knows that you're a manipulative teenager with psychopathic tendencies, a child who tortures animals to death in the woods but masquerades as a reasonable-sounding political pundit can take over the world.

It's been a while. I'm sure I'm missing some salient points. Perhaps the only thing I gained from Card's later work was the notion that the parents knew full well what the kids were up to the whole time, and played along. Still, pretty damn sure there weren't any evil corporate types in the series. Card's way too Republican to associate wealth with evil.
ZenArcade wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:48 pm
Outpost716 wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:17 pm
...
Also, small footnote? Get over the swearing. We're all grown-ups. If you can't handle a little swearing, then you truly don't appreciate the art form, the importance of language, or the nuance of communication. Just sayin'.
A good many things I agree with ^. But I voted for Biden and I'm going to complain all I want, while trying to create/voting for better options moving forward.

My response/opinion to your footnote would be ... it's not the swearing at all really, just the personal nastiness that was present.
Current events rise to the level where swearing is appropriate, but creative application is always appreciated.

Civility is always in style. An armed society, remember?

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Re: Western liberal militia?

Post by Outpost716 »

YankeeTarheel wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:02 pm
Bisbee wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:44 pm
A black activist once said to me that choosing not to vote (or voting for anyone other than a Democratic candidate) is a luxury that liberals possess which are not afforded black voters in America. Because the alternative is basically governmental policy amounting to the slow death of slavery (in all its economic forms) or armed resistance leading to quicker death. Voting is preferable. An interesting perspective from a different set of history and circumstances.
President Obama was just speaking in Philadelphia a few minutes ago, specifically aiming at young Black voters. He pointed out that the MOST Black participation was for him in 2008--60%. He said we don't know what would happen if it was 80% or 90% because we've never had that, and in mid-term elections Black participation can fall to as little as 30%!

His point is that with our voter participation rates (and I include myself, a senior White male, who ALWAYS votes), it's no surprise we don't get change.

I like to think that with a 70% or 80% or more participation, we can achieve a "herd immunity" to the shitheads like Trump and McConnell.
Hard agree. And those numbers plummet further with more Trump, more right wing rhetoric, and more of the same shady shit.

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Re: Western liberal militia?

Post by Outpost716 »

wings wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:19 pm
Bisbee wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:44 pm
A black activist once said to me that choosing not to vote (or voting for anyone other than a Democratic candidate) is a luxury that liberals possess which are not afforded black voters in America. Because the alternative is basically governmental policy amounting to the slow death of slavery (in all its economic forms) or armed resistance leading to quicker death. Voting is preferable. An interesting perspective from a different set of history and circumstances.
wings wrote: Agreed en toto. And I don't mean Dorothy's little dog.

We don't live in a democracy, we live in a republic. An oligarchy that substitutes the vote for armed revolt.

Choosing not to vote is choosing to lay down your arms and surrender.
Precisely.
NegativeApproach wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:20 am
wings wrote: Have you ever read Ender's Game? It's a decent book, but the flawed premise in it is ...
Here I thought the premise was that by game-fying warfare and using AI surveillance of online activities, the elites could put together detailed personal profiles of every individual in the system. That by controlling the flow of information to decision-makers, a military-industrial complex could control the outcome of events, and lay blame for unspeakable atrocities in the hands of those who didn't understand the full significance of their actions.
🤔 So, we're all just pawns. Sounds pretty derivative.
wings wrote: Here I thought that the premise was that on the internet, nobody knows that you're a manipulative teenager with psychopathic tendencies, a child who tortures animals to death in the woods but masquerades as a reasonable-sounding political pundit can take over the world.
Just when I thought today couldn't be any grimmer... *uncomfortable laugh*
wings wrote: It's been a while. I'm sure I'm missing some salient points. Perhaps the only thing I gained from Card's later work was the notion that the parents knew full well what the kids were up to the whole time, and played along. Still, pretty damn sure there weren't any evil corporate types in the series. Card's way too Republican to associate wealth with evil.
ZenArcade wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:48 pm
Outpost716 wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:17 pm
...
Also, small footnote? Get over the swearing. We're all grown-ups. If you can't handle a little swearing, then you truly don't appreciate the art form, the importance of language, or the nuance of communication. Just sayin'.
A good many things I agree with ^. But I voted for Biden and I'm going to complain all I want, while trying to create/voting for better options moving forward.

My response/opinion to your footnote would be ... it's not the swearing at all really, just the personal nastiness that was present.
wings wrote: Current events rise to the level where swearing is appropriate, but creative application is always appreciated.

Civility is always in style. An armed society, remember?
Yup!

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Re: Western liberal militia?

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Outpost716 wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:07 pm
CDFingers wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:12 pm
There is an advantage in America to not voting.

There were times between my ages of 18 to 26 where I was lucky to know what month it was. Despite the political, economic, religious, and social upheavals taking place during that time, I could still make money, pay rent, eat food, do hobbies. Those moments in a proper political life are necessary so we know the bottom line. Once we know, we can progress toward a more perfect union. You gotta know the bottom line: America then allowed me to do that.

In my spiritual quest I've pushed it further, learned to wait and to fast for a week back in the day. Now I know many, many things: when you get to the mountain top, you can place one, single, small pebble that will change the course of the glacier. Everybody knows that. What I now know is there are many pebbles, and when seen from the center, there are infinite options for pebble placement.

The point is a man's got to know his limitations, just like a society must learn and know its limitations. Something happens in the brain when the body does not eat for a week. And something has happened in our society when we have fasted without leadership for lo, these too many years. Fasting in both accounts shows what's really real. After a week of no food, oh! an apple! Oh! Oh! Without leadership we now see too many people without homes, jobs, health care, food, even clean water. Imagine the minor things the next administration might do to dole out apples to the People. Yeah. Might work.

The person who does not vote still can maintain a fine life. However, after this last four years of schmutz, the non voter may think, "ya know..." Which is just exactly perfectly OK as well.

CDFingers
Many would argue that not voting is what got us into the Trump mess. So, how do you square this?
Easy. The two party system is antithetical to democracy. Especially when both parties are in service only to those with money.

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Re: Western liberal militia?

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Bisbee wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:44 pm
A black activist once said to me that choosing not to vote (or voting for anyone other than a Democratic candidate) is a luxury that liberals possess which are not afforded black voters in America. Because the alternative is basically governmental policy amounting to the slow death of slavery (in all its economic forms) or armed resistance leading to quicker death. Voting is preferable. An interesting perspective from a different set of history and circumstances.
So should we tell black people that they need to vote for the open racist, or the one who wrote a crime bill that incarcerated more black people?
The effect on black and Hispanic populations

Biden’s questioner asked specifically about blacks and Hispanics. Historic federal data is most complete for black prisoners, and there, the numbers show that the black incarceration rate was different from the overall trend.

Based on annual reports by the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics, the black incarceration rate rose from about 1,200 per 100,000 in 1985 to about 2,450 per 100,000 in 2000. (This is for both men and women. The rate for black men in 2000 was 3,457 per 100,000.) The white incarceration rate declined a bit between 1995 and 2000, falling from 319 to 281 per 100,000.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... rceration/


Great choices there.

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Re: Western liberal militia?

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Outpost716 wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:48 pm

Then what is? How would you, NegativeApproach, fix this? What are your suggestions? I'm all ears (eyes, whatever)! Please, enlighten me with your solution to the problem of the United States. Teach me something. I'm not unwilling to change my stance or reform my opinion, but you're going to have to work for it. You're going to have to substantiate your claims. And you have no reason to believe this, but I'm genuinely interested. But, I don't want to read more complaints and more about how powerless/not rich you are. I want to read your exact ideas (even in the absence of wealth) how you or anyone would solve this problem. That said, what's your perfect world? How does any of your "I'm taking my ball and going home!" solve the problem of this election?
The first step is to remove money from politics. Have a nationalized tax-payer funded campaign fincancing.

From there, we have a plethora of things that would fix the system, including a significantly higher tax rate (perhaps the rate from the 60s when america "was great" before?) for those who earn a million dollars a year or less, universal single-payer health care, the end of mass incarceration for non-violent offenders, and a universal basic income.

However, all of these things are non-starters, because:
Outpost716 wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:48 pm

Yes, rich people do fund candidates, I'd be without any integrity if I didn't grant that; but you don't think they're not hedging their bets? You think they don't throw money at multiple candidates to see which sticks? C'mon! Their interest is in one thing: the amassing and continued amassing of wealth. They'll go with whomever wins, so long as they get what they want.

The point is, the rich don't dictate policy. They can't be bothered with policy -unless it affects their bottom line. You really, honestly think they'd climb down from on high to set forth a policy that doesn't and won't affect them? You think they care whether or not you have a job? healthcare? happiness? Hahahahaha! Shiiiiiiiiiiiit.
This is all false. The rich DO dictate policy. They have their lobbyists write the laws, and the people in congress rubber-stamp them.

If that wasn't the case, explain every single tax break for the rich since the 1960s... Do you think that those things are the will of the people?


NegativeApproach wrote: The wealth divide and lack of social mobility, lack of 1st world health care, and the fact that yes, he's coming for your guns, are a recipe for disaster.

You can vote for that garbage if you want, but I won't participate in a charade of democracy.
Outpost716 wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:48 pm
So, to your mind: Biden == Trump? Have I got that right? It doesn't matter to you at all? Who would? Burnie? Or is he a broken puppet of wealthy interests, too? Warren? Budeg--- however you spell his name? ANYONE running for office in the US?

And, so that I'm sure that I completely understand you, I'll ask: It doesn't matter to you that Trump knew about the dangers of the pandemic and chose, CHOSE to deliberately mislead the people of this country (well, the ones that believed him anyway), then deny it to save face? It doesn't matter to you that he is a boastful, arrogant, broke-ass narcissist who really only wants attention and to be 'Liked' and retweeted in the hearts and minds of the under/uneducated? It doesn't matter to you that (whether you like them or not), the people around you have been mislead and manipulated?
Trump poorly handled the pandemic. That's clear. He bungles everything. I'm not terrifed that Western Democracy will falter and crumble for someone who can't institute a single major policy without it running into significant snags (border wall, Muslim ban, ACA repeal, etc etc etc). The guy is a clown.

The real problem here is that we have corporate/profit-driven health care. THAT is the main reason we have a quarter million dead. If we had real health care in this country, people wouldn't be trying to make sense of it all. They would simply be getting the treatment that they need. Instead, we have people falling through the cracks and dying at record rates. That's not ALL Trump's fault, and to blame only Trump is to ignore the failures of our broken health care system.

Outpost716 wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:48 pm

Though, I will suggest that you're likely to be better off elsewhere - like Finland, Norway, - hell, any country that made the "Happiest Places to Live" list. Clearly, the US isn't going to change, so why do you remain? Why, in all that you enumerate is wrong with this country, do you even bother sticking around? Serious question.
"Love it or leave it", huh? Where have I heard that before?

NegativeApproach wrote: Choosing not to play in a rigged and broken game is very much my right, and I'd argue its my duty as an American.
Outpost716 wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:48 pm
Well then! Take your toys and go home. Also, this is a cop-out and hardly American.
It's not a cop out. Our system currently serves only the wealthy. You can pretend that it doesn't if you'd like. It's a fallacy.

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Re: Western liberal militia?

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NegativeApproach wrote:
Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:45 am
Outpost716 wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:48 pm

Then what is? How would you, NegativeApproach, fix this? What are your suggestions? I'm all ears (eyes, whatever)! Please, enlighten me with your solution to the problem of the United States. Teach me something. I'm not unwilling to change my stance or reform my opinion, but you're going to have to work for it. You're going to have to substantiate your claims. And you have no reason to believe this, but I'm genuinely interested. But, I don't want to read more complaints and more about how powerless/not rich you are. I want to read your exact ideas (even in the absence of wealth) how you or anyone would solve this problem. That said, what's your perfect world? How does any of your "I'm taking my ball and going home!" solve the problem of this election?
The first step is to remove money from politics. Have a nationalized tax-payer funded campaign fincancing.

From there, we have a plethora of things that would fix the system, including a significantly higher tax rate (perhaps the rate from the 60s when america "was great" before?) for those who earn a million dollars a year or less, universal single-payer health care, the end of mass incarceration for non-violent offenders, and a universal basic income.

However, all of these things are non-starters, because:
Outpost716 wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:48 pm

Yes, rich people do fund candidates, I'd be without any integrity if I didn't grant that; but you don't think they're not hedging their bets? You think they don't throw money at multiple candidates to see which sticks? C'mon! Their interest is in one thing: the amassing and continued amassing of wealth. They'll go with whomever wins, so long as they get what they want.

The point is, the rich don't dictate policy. They can't be bothered with policy -unless it affects their bottom line. You really, honestly think they'd climb down from on high to set forth a policy that doesn't and won't affect them? You think they care whether or not you have a job? healthcare? happiness? Hahahahaha! Shiiiiiiiiiiiit.
This is all false. The rich DO dictate policy. They have their lobbyists write the laws, and the people in congress rubber-stamp them.

If that wasn't the case, explain every single tax break for the rich since the 1960s... Do you think that those things are the will of the people?


NegativeApproach wrote: The wealth divide and lack of social mobility, lack of 1st world health care, and the fact that yes, he's coming for your guns, are a recipe for disaster.

You can vote for that garbage if you want, but I won't participate in a charade of democracy.
Outpost716 wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:48 pm
So, to your mind: Biden == Trump? Have I got that right? It doesn't matter to you at all? Who would? Burnie? Or is he a broken puppet of wealthy interests, too? Warren? Budeg--- however you spell his name? ANYONE running for office in the US?

And, so that I'm sure that I completely understand you, I'll ask: It doesn't matter to you that Trump knew about the dangers of the pandemic and chose, CHOSE to deliberately mislead the people of this country (well, the ones that believed him anyway), then deny it to save face? It doesn't matter to you that he is a boastful, arrogant, broke-ass narcissist who really only wants attention and to be 'Liked' and retweeted in the hearts and minds of the under/uneducated? It doesn't matter to you that (whether you like them or not), the people around you have been mislead and manipulated?
Trump poorly handled the pandemic. That's clear. He bungles everything. I'm not terrifed that Western Democracy will falter and crumble for someone who can't institute a single major policy without it running into significant snags (border wall, Muslim ban, ACA repeal, etc etc etc). The guy is a clown.

The real problem here is that we have corporate/profit-driven health care. THAT is the main reason we have a quarter million dead. If we had real health care in this country, people wouldn't be trying to make sense of it all. They would simply be getting the treatment that they need. Instead, we have people falling through the cracks and dying at record rates. That's not ALL Trump's fault, and to blame only Trump is to ignore the failures of our broken health care system.

Outpost716 wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:48 pm

Though, I will suggest that you're likely to be better off elsewhere - like Finland, Norway, - hell, any country that made the "Happiest Places to Live" list. Clearly, the US isn't going to change, so why do you remain? Why, in all that you enumerate is wrong with this country, do you even bother sticking around? Serious question.
"Love it or leave it", huh? Where have I heard that before?

NegativeApproach wrote: Choosing not to play in a rigged and broken game is very much my right, and I'd argue its my duty as an American.
Outpost716 wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:48 pm
Well then! Take your toys and go home. Also, this is a cop-out and hardly American.
It's not a cop out. Our system currently serves only the wealthy. You can pretend that it doesn't if you'd like. It's a fallacy.
This, very much all of this. I didn’t even want to dignify the “love it or leave” comment by the quoted poster, but thank you for responding. I’m pretty disgusted by the number of people that are inferring that I should go back to Finland simply because I don’t want to accept a corporate wealthy elite dominated system in my country. Unfortunately I’ve heard that sentiment far too often in the near fifty years I have been a citizen. It has made me realize I will never be equal or accepted as one with the natural born here. That is a sad commentary. If I complain too loudly I can be removed, I have to live with that possibility, a natural born does not. Thank you NegativeApproach for your response.
ImageImage
"Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated!" Loquacious of many. Texas Chapter Chief Cat Herder.

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Re: Western liberal militia?

Post by YankeeTarheel »

Before Trump, and, hopefully, after Trump, you cannot lose your citizenship unless it can be proven you faked your background, hiding serious reasons to be denied citizenship. Usually it was former Nazis who had that happen. Of course, with Trump, naturalized and even natural-born citizens, who had Brown skins and Spanish-sounding names, have been deported by this tyranny.

If nothing else, Biden will follow the science, and radiologist Dr. Atlas, will be sent back to his gas masks and pentothal, if he hasn't killed 2 million Americans by then.

A government that doesn't work to protect its citizens has violated THE basic Contract: To do its damnedest to keep the people of the nation safe. It may not succeed, but it damned well is supposed to TRY!

Like him or not, Biden will try to his last breath. Obama would have, too. As inept as he was, so would Dubya, Clinton, Poppy Bush, Reagan, Carter, Ford , Nixon (yes, even Tricky Dick), LBJ, JFK, Ike, Truman, FDR, Hoover (though he didn't have a clue), etc, going back to Washington.

Trump doesn't give a flying fuck about protecting the American people, only about protecting Trump.
""If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -- LBJ

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